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 Topic: Women's liberation in the Muslim world-- strategic considerations

 (Read 11173 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Women's liberation in the Muslim world-- strategic considerations
     OP - July 03, 2011, 01:36 AM

    Okay, I need help with an analysis here.

    One of the reasons I think women's liberation in the Muslim world is so difficult is, unlike other liberation movements, it often involves a struggle against one's own family. In most liberation struggles-- based on class, color, nationality/ethnicity-- this is sipily not an issue, and, quite the contrary, in successful movements, the family struggles as a unit against oppression. So it's easy to see why this would be a huge obstacle to an effective mass movement to overturn patriarchy.

    Now, this got me thinking on how women's liberation was successful in the Western world (although some would argue the job's not done, obviously great strides forward have been made here that have yet to occur in the Muslim world). Unfortunately, I really only know about America, and I know there are some very specific economic triggers that may not be present elsewhere at this time. Specifically, two things come to mind: (1) the use of mass female labor at textile mills in the late 18th and early 19th centuries gave women space away from male-dominated households, made them wage-earners like males, and labor struggles in the horrid mill working conditions showed women self-organization was possible, and this helped boost the suffragette movement of the early 19th century (2) during WWII, a mass mobilization of young to middle-aged males left many women to fend for themselves as head of household and also fill factory jobs once filled by men who were now fighting overseas, and having coincided with recent mass unionization by unions who had very radical socialist politics, helped give women more social independence (there was a partial loss of that during the 50s, as often happens in liberation movements which are almost never 100% forward progress, but it the horse was out of the barn by then and by the 60s and 70s things shifted again).

    So, I have three main questions then for anyone who can answer them. Firstly, can we look to a society where women's liberation was achieved (achieved here meaning the conservative standard of women having full citizenship and property rights which are regularly respected by the civil authority) and there were NOT specific economic triggers, and if so, how was it achieved? Then, secondly, can we see similar openings due to objective conditions for women in the Muslim world? Finally, how may those openings be best exploited, or if those particular openings do not exist, what is the best way to move forward given current conditions?

    Yes big questions, but feel free to jump in, cause I have exactly this many answers: 0

    *EDIT: Development of home appliance technology also made the woman's economic role as steward of the household less time-consuming and thus pushed more working-class women into wage labor.

    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: Women's liberation in the Muslim world-- strategic considerations
     Reply #1 - July 03, 2011, 01:59 AM

    I'm not so sure it can be classed the same as the women's lib movement of the 19th/20th century because religion is involved.  This isn;t just a struggle against men controlling women, its a struggle against a religion that is actually pretty fucking solid as a foundation for many of them.

    I mean even thought people were probably more religous back the UK when the women's lib movement began, secular thinking had already begun to seep in, before the war.

    Infact many of the women who led the fight came from non comformist families who had educated their daughters since they didn't adhere to hard core religious attitudes towards their women.

    So I mean would work = emancipation in the same way?

    Also you have to factor in how prominent and successful some of those women had been in the earlier anti slavery campaigns, which I think gave them a taste of how women could make a difference, which in turn led them on to take the fight to their own emancipation.  I think women began to compare themselves to slaves, but this is not so much in the muslim world.

    Religion is involved a lot deeper than it was with women's lib in the west.

    I think nations that are semi secular, or simply more westernised within the arab world already have women's lib movements, its just what will be the trigger for them to start comparing themselves to slaves?

    I don;t really know/

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Women's liberation in the Muslim world-- strategic considerations
     Reply #2 - July 03, 2011, 02:03 AM

    I think the biggest problem is the inflexible nature of the final revelation (repeated ad nauseum in the Quran to justify why it was replacing the corrupted Bible) which places the womans role as a nurturer at home, and as a servile to her husband Master.

    Quote
    One of the reasons I think women's liberation in the Muslim world is so difficult is, unlike other liberation movements, it often involves a struggle against one's own family. In most liberation struggles-- based on class, color, nationality/ethnicity-- this is sipily not an issue, and, quite the contrary, in successful movements, the family struggles as a unit against oppression.


    As its Gods final commandment, many women wont see themselves as being repressed which further serves to weaken the argument of those attempting to help them, and are often seen as meddling outsiders or many times agents of Zionism.  

    The Left who are normally fervent supporters of such issues have been extraordinarily quiet and  treated these issues at arms length I think because of the fear of being branded as racist or being accused of imposing their own set of values.

    All in all, a very difficult one to sort out and I believe will require a multi-pronged approach.

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  • Re: Women's liberation in the Muslim world-- strategic considerations
     Reply #3 - July 03, 2011, 02:14 AM

    The status of women in muslim countries differs so its hard to say, even in individual countries it varies a lot. Pakistan being a perfect example. In some parts all the women are either wearing hijab or the niqab/burka whilst in others you have girls wearing jeans and skimpy tops, I saw this for myself recently and I still can't understand how a nation that has a woman as a PM can still have widespread abuse against women  wacko In some ways I think muslims have gone backwards. E.g. women in the military, in some muslim countries women can't serve in the military yet during the time of Mo there was a woman who fought alongside him and save his life (I think) and he never prohibited her from fighting nor did the muslims after him. The same goes for women driving cars and employment, they've gone backwards  Cry

    I can only really try to answer your final question. I think the best way is to let the muslim world come out of their dark age on their own terms in their own time, that doesn't mean ignoring them or something but intervention and interference (which is usually hypocritical) leads to Islamic fundamentalism which has ALWAYS risen when there has been conflict, it happened in Islamic Spain (the last few ruling dynasties can be called the al-Qaeda of their day) it happened in Afghanistan & Iraq, its happening in Pakistan and will continue to do so. I don't think we will ever see women in muslim countries having the same rights as say women in France as long as Islam is seen as something important which it is by most muslimahs. But I think every muslimah would like to live a life where she can receive an education, get a job and live a happy life and not having to fear domestic violence, injustices done by the state or any other crime. Like most things, it comes down to politics.  yes

    If the revolutions in places like Egypt and Tunisia are successful women will play a bigger role in society. I think the despotic regimes are as much to blame as the mad mullahs. That's all I can say really..............
  • Re: Women's liberation in the Muslim world-- strategic considerations
     Reply #4 - July 03, 2011, 02:16 AM

    As its Gods final commandment, many women wont see themselves as being repressed which further serves to weaken the argument of those attempting to help them, and are often seen as meddling outsiders or many times agents of Zionism.  




    Umm how many muslimahs have you met that have accused people who have their interests at heart of being "agents of Zionism"?  Roll Eyes
  • Re: Women's liberation in the Muslim world-- strategic considerations
     Reply #5 - July 03, 2011, 02:20 AM


    Umm how many muslimahs have you met that have accused people who have their interests at heart of being "agents of Zionism"?  Roll Eyes

    Ive lost count

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  • Re: Women's liberation in the Muslim world-- strategic considerations
     Reply #6 - July 03, 2011, 02:30 AM

    Quote
    I think the best way is to let the muslim world come out of their dark age on their own terms in their own time, that doesn't mean ignoring them

    Doesnt it?  Sounds like the leftist response I was referring to in my post earlier.  Sounds like you are offering nothing short of 'sort yourselves out' in terms of a solution.  Particularly as it is such a grave problem that affects countless women who will continue to receive injustice in the meantime.

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  • Re: Women's liberation in the Muslim world-- strategic considerations
     Reply #7 - July 03, 2011, 02:33 AM

    Uh-huh and what's your solution, Islame?

    If you lack one, best not to criticize others. Anyhow, I'll get back to the other responses here tomorrow or Monday.

    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: Women's liberation in the Muslim world-- strategic considerations
     Reply #8 - July 03, 2011, 02:34 AM

    Yeah I'd also like to hear your ideas Islame.
  • Re: Women's liberation in the Muslim world-- strategic considerations
     Reply #9 - July 03, 2011, 02:36 AM

    Okay, I need help with an analysis here.

    One of the reasons I think women's liberation in the Muslim world is so difficult is, unlike other liberation movements, it often involves a struggle against one's own family. In most liberation struggles-- based on class, color, nationality/ethnicity-- this is sipily not an issue, and, quite the contrary, in successful movements, the family struggles as a unit against oppression. So it's easy to see why this would be a huge obstacle to an effective mass movement to overturn patriarchy.

    Now, this got me thinking on how women's liberation was successful in the Western world (although some would argue the job's not done, obviously great strides forward have been made here that have yet to occur in the Muslim world). Unfortunately, I really only know about America, and I know there are some very specific economic triggers that may not be present elsewhere at this time. Specifically, two things come to mind: (1) the use of mass female labor at textile mills in the late 18th and early 19th centuries gave women space away from male-dominated households, made them wage-earners like males, and labor struggles in the horrid mill working conditions showed women self-organization was possible, and this helped boost the suffragette movement of the early 19th century (2) during WWII, a mass mobilization of young to middle-aged males left many women to fend for themselves as head of household and also fill factory jobs once filled by men who were now fighting overseas, and having coincided with recent mass unionization by unions who had very radical socialist politics, helped give women more social independence (there was a partial loss of that during the 50s, as often happens in liberation movements which are almost never 100% forward progress, but it the horse was out of the barn by then and by the 60s and 70s things shifted again).

    So, I have three main questions then for anyone who can answer them. Firstly, can we look to a society where women's liberation was achieved (achieved here meaning the conservative standard of women having full citizenship and property rights which are regularly respected by the civil authority) and there were NOT specific economic triggers, and if so, how was it achieved? Then, secondly, can we see similar openings due to objective conditions for women in the Muslim world? Finally, how may those openings be best exploited, or if those particular openings do not exist, what is the best way to move forward given current conditions?

    Yes big questions, but feel free to jump in, cause I have exactly this many answers: 0

    *EDIT: Development of home appliance technology also made the woman's economic role as steward of the household less time-consuming and thus pushed more working-class women into wage labor.


    There is a significant difference between women's liberation in Muslim countries and women's liberation in the U.S.:Religion is involved. As  Berb pointed put it is a struggle against religion. Gender discrimmination is sanctioned by Islamic religious texts and sharia law. In other words Muslims believe Allah gave them commands to treat women differently and therefore it is alright to treat women like shit. Another difference is  Americans live in a free society where injustices are recognized and fought against. Muslims countries do not have the freedoms that are granted here in the U.S. Muslims suffer from various forms of oppression whether it is dictator regimes, Muslims blowing each other, Muslims persecuting other Muslims, and exc. Also many Muslim countries are still stuck in the 7th century. That is why the women's liberation in U.S has been so successful and why it is so hard to fight for women's rights in Muslim countries.

    Which means secularization and modernization is desperately needed in Muslim countries.
  • Re: Women's liberation in the Muslim world-- strategic considerations
     Reply #10 - July 03, 2011, 02:40 AM

    Uh-huh and what's your solution, Islame?


    I didnt specify one, there are lots that I can think of and couldnt be bothered thinking though & typing down

    If you lack one, best not to criticize others.

    Who said I lack one?  I was only criticising the 'do nothing' response, and I dont see a problem with that as I gave reasons why.



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  • Re: Women's liberation in the Muslim world-- strategic considerations
     Reply #11 - July 03, 2011, 02:43 AM

    There is a significant difference between women's liberation in Muslim countries and women's liberation in the U.S.:Religion is involved. As  Berb pointed put it is a struggle against religion. Gender discrimmination is sanctioned by Islamic religious texts and sharia law. In other words Muslims believe Allah gave them commands to treat women differently and therefore it is alright to treat women like shit. Another difference is  Americans live in a free society where injustices are recognized and fought against. Muslims countries do not have the freedoms that are granted here in the U.S. Muslims suffer from various forms of oppression whether it is dictator regimes, Muslims blowing each other, Muslims persecuting other Muslims, and exc. Also many Muslim countries are still stuck in the 7th century. That is why the women's liberation in U.S has been so successful and why it is so hard to fight for women's rights in Muslim countries.

    Which means secularization and modernization is desperately needed in Muslim countries.


    Go away. Your analysis is ill-informed and useless.

    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: Women's liberation in the Muslim world-- strategic considerations
     Reply #12 - July 03, 2011, 02:46 AM

    I didnt specify one, there are lots that I can think of and couldnt be bothered thinking though & typing down


    Then why reply at all? I'm not just writing this as a purely intellectual exercise. I want a concrete analysis as it will support ideas for action, even if that action isn't by the people here.

    Quote
    Who said I lack one?


    Hence the "if" in my statement.

    Quote
     I was only criticising the 'do nothing' response, and I dont see a problem with that as I gave reasons why.


    Take your personal beef with Aphrodite elsewhere. I'm looking for analysis, information, and ideas.

    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: Women's liberation in the Muslim world-- strategic considerations
     Reply #13 - July 03, 2011, 02:47 AM

    Fine. I'll go away
  • Re: Women's liberation in the Muslim world-- strategic considerations
     Reply #14 - July 03, 2011, 02:48 AM

    Yeah I'd also like to hear your ideas Islame.

    pushing education, secularism, stopping states sponsored religious schools & single sex schools our own countries as well as sorting out the inequality there too,  empowering women, strengthening modernising Islam programmes, removing the protection of relgious criticism from international chartars,  more funding to equal rights campaigns etc etc

    At least some of these are surely better than 'do nothing' for fear of retalliation or being accused of meddling?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Women's liberation in the Muslim world-- strategic considerations
     Reply #15 - July 03, 2011, 02:50 AM

    Quote
    There is a significant difference between women's liberation in Muslim countries and women's liberation in the U.S.:Religion is involved. As  Berb pointed put it is a struggle against religion. Gender discrimmination is sanctioned by Islamic religious texts and sharia law. In other words Muslims believe Allah gave them commands to treat women differently and therefore it is alright to treat women like shit. Another difference is  Americans live in a free society where injustices are recognized and fought against. Muslims countries do not have the freedoms that are granted here in the U.S. Muslims suffer from various forms of oppression whether it is dictator regimes, Muslims blowing each other, Muslims persecuting other Muslims, and exc. Also many Muslim countries are still stuck in the 7th century. That is why the women's liberation in U.S has been so successful and why it is so hard to fight for women's rights in Muslim countries.

    Which means secularization and modernization is desperately needed in Muslim countries.


    Hmmm... Given the above is true, it would seem that the only hope for Muslims is to change their religion... and the best religion to adopt would be Chritianity, since the US is largely a Christian country and women there are free, thanks to Christianity.

    No, thanks, I'd rather piss on the Bible instead.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Women's liberation in the Muslim world-- strategic considerations
     Reply #16 - July 03, 2011, 02:53 AM

    Fine. I'll go away


    Dammit, now I feel guilty. Shit. Look, Islam is certainly an important factor here, but you seem to be approaching this from your usual "The West is just superior to the Muslim world" analysis-- which doesn't help me at all. If you have a more objective and helpful analysis to contribute I welcome you to stay and share your thoughts. I apologize for being rude to you, QI.

    pushing education, secularism, stopping states sponsored religious schools & single sex schools our own countries as well as sorting out the inequality there too,  empowering women, strengthening modernising Islam programmes, removing the protection of relgious criticism from international chartars,  more funding to equal rights campaigns etc etc

    At least some of these are surely better than 'do nothing' for fear of retalliation or being accused of meddling?


    Blowback is a real and documented phenomenon, and if you think that any capitalist nation-state will ever have the interests of ordinary people as a primary goal in the countries they are dealing with diplomatically and militarily, you are living in a dream world.

    But whatever. I'm done with that for the time being-- we can revisit later. Berbs raised some good points that require a thorough analysis that I need to get to first (though likely not tonight).

    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: Women's liberation in the Muslim world-- strategic considerations
     Reply #17 - July 03, 2011, 03:03 AM

    @ the OP (Is it really q-man?)

    In Saudi Arabia women are treated like shit mainly because of tribal customs. These differ of course, and thus the treatment is different. Generally speaking *women = shame* in Arabia... this can go to great lengths in some regions. For example, a father wouldn't attend his daughter's wedding night, because it's the night he'd be personally humiliated by allowing another man to deflower his daughter... Some tribes don't allow their women to take off the face veil even in their own homes, etc, etc, of course, needless to say that none of these practices are Islamic.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Women's liberation in the Muslim world-- strategic considerations
     Reply #18 - July 03, 2011, 03:06 AM

    Quote
    Dammit, now I feel guilty. Shit. Look, Islam is certainly an important factor here, but you seem to be approaching this from your usual "The West is just superior to the Muslim world" analysis-- which doesn't help me at all. If you have a more objective and helpful analysis to contribute I welcome you to stay and share your thoughts. I apologize for being rude to you, QI


    Look all I am trying to say is for women's liberation to take place secularization needs to be brought to the Muslim world.
  • Re: Women's liberation in the Muslim world-- strategic considerations
     Reply #19 - July 03, 2011, 03:07 AM

    Then why reply at all?

    The title of the thread was strategic considerations, and as mine was the second post I wanted to add something that I thought was important to the discussion.
    Quote
    I want a concrete analysis as it will support ideas for action, even if that action isn't by the people here.

    yes, I realised that, and was why I wanted to add Islam to the discussion.

    I'm not just writing this
    Take your personal beef with Aphrodite elsewhere. I'm looking for analysis, information, and ideas.

    In which case shouldnt you also be addressing this comment to Aphrodite also, who rather than discussing & debating is using sarcasm & eye smiley in a thread of this nature?  In any case my argument against a 'do nothing' approach imo was a valid one.

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  • Re: Women's liberation in the Muslim world-- strategic considerations
     Reply #20 - July 03, 2011, 03:10 AM

    No, thanks, I'd rather piss on the Bible instead.

    Towba, Towba.  Thats one of your Holy Books, even if it is corrupted.  mysmilie_977

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Women's liberation in the Muslim world-- strategic considerations
     Reply #21 - July 03, 2011, 03:14 AM

    Look all I am trying to say is for women's liberation to take place secularization needs to be brought to the Muslim world.


    but you already declared that the hindrance against any reform is the Islamic religion... so? where do you propose we go from here?

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Women's liberation in the Muslim world-- strategic considerations
     Reply #22 - July 03, 2011, 03:18 AM

    Towba, Towba.  Thats one of your Holy Books, even if it is corrupted.  mysmilie_977


    Oh, you never seen the things I wrote about the Bible at FFI... anyway, it's just that (undercover) Evangelists get on my nerve... I'm not saying that Marie is necessarily an Evangelist, but she still irritates me everytime she tries to compare Christianity with Isalm.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Women's liberation in the Muslim world-- strategic considerations
     Reply #23 - July 03, 2011, 03:19 AM

    @ the OP (Is it really q-man?)

    In Saudi Arabia women are treated like shit mainly because of tribal customs. These differ of course, and thus the treatment is different. Generally speaking *women = shame* in Arabia... this can go to great lengths in some regions. For example, a father wouldn't attend his daughter's wedding night, because it's the night he'd be personally humiliated by allowing another man to deflower his daughter... Some tribes don't allow their women to take off the face veil even in their own homes, etc, etc, of course, needless to say that none of these practices are Islamic.

    Then why do you think there appears to be greater inequality in the Muslim world in general - or are you saying this is not the case

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  • Re: Women's liberation in the Muslim world-- strategic considerations
     Reply #24 - July 03, 2011, 03:21 AM

    Oh, you never seen the things I wrote about the Bible at FFI... anyway, it's just that (undercover) Evangelists get on my nerve... I'm not saying that Marie is necessarily an Evangelist, but she still irritates me everytime she tries to compare Christianity with Isalm.

    Me too - this thread is not about who's farts smell better, its about how women can be treated more fairly.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Women's liberation in the Muslim world-- strategic considerations
     Reply #25 - July 03, 2011, 03:22 AM

    Quote
    debunker

    but you already declared that the hindrance against any reform is the Islamic religion... so? where do you propose we go from here?


    Well we begin by supporting democracy movements in Muslim countries. The Iranians are in great need of outside support.
  • Re: Women's liberation in the Muslim world-- strategic considerations
     Reply #26 - July 03, 2011, 03:24 AM

    Feminism in the west has had a long and tumultuous history. Some of the earliest feminists were outright racist white women from the upper classes who supported eugenics and the traditional gender roles, and gave little to no thought to women of colour and from working classes. They were operating within their own contexts, like everyone always does. The suffragettes' greatest rivals were other women. The Equal Rights Amendment in the USA was fought tooth and nail by women like Phyllis Schlafly. Feminism in the west has had to contend with the realities of non-white, working class, and non-heterosexual women, as well there are ongoing internal debates still within feminist circles about things like porn, sexuality, transgenderism, etc, and topics surrounding "global" feminism and the issues that that entails (cultural relativism vs. ethnocentric neo-imperialism etc.).

    In places like Japan, China and India - primarily non-muslim countries - there is also a lot of cultural sexism, from sex-selective abortions, to feoticide, to sex slavery and general notion of women's roles and options being restricted. So, patriarchal oppression of women (and subsequently of some men and of non-heterosexuals) is not exclusive to the west or to muslim-majority cultures.

    The difference as most here have pointed out is religion. And not just any religion, because they have religion in India and Japan too, but the kind of absolutist religion that Islam has become especially since Oil-funded (by all of us oil addicted neoliberal consumers) Wahabbi elites have become the defacto demagogues and sponsors of the most absolutist strain of Islam (which lends itself very easily to such absolutism, no question about that).

    In India, e.g. there are growing voices for women's liberation even within the repressive caste system there, as manifested by the "Gulabi Gang"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXwH-kjSUSs

    Sampat Pal, who has spearheaded this campaign, works and argues and fights for the rights of women mostly, but of the community in general. Especially important is that she is from the Dalit "untouchable" caste herself... and she and this "gang" don't let tradition, religion or financial problems stop them from speaking up and getting media attention to expose these issues. (An excellent documentary on this group is out there, called Pink Saris).

    In muslim-majority countries, I can't see something like this happening. Even in a place like Pakistan right next door and with so much in common with India. Islam has codified patriarchy so deep within the cultures and peoples it's taken over, that for most muslims, especially in muslim-majority countries, it is their only sense of identity.

    Islam has had its own empires, but muslims still believe that they have always been the colonized, never the colonizers. Arabs and Muslims were involved in the African slave trade, but most muslims still believe that they have always been against slavery or came as liberators to colonized african nations.

    If there is to be any feminist/women's liberation movement that would actually take hold, it would have to be something that works within Islam but completely transforms Islam. Some women in muslim-majority countries do embrace western brands of feminism, but that is usually seen as invasive because for muslims, non-muslims are the perpetual "other" and, like any racial/cultural supremacists (white or not), they will reject even something that may be in their own self interest, simply because it's perceived as something from "the other".

    Funny though, they seem to be just fine embracing technology and conveniences, just not socially progressive ideas. I am amazed at how many muslim supremacist groups and pages exist on Facebook that decry the evils of the west - on a website started by an american atheist of jewish descent, using computers, devices that would not have been possible without the work of a gay, white british man.

    So what might actually change things for the better for women? Well, first of all, it will have to be a movement that is organic, genuinely organic, from within, like the Gulabi Gang is a very organic movement for India. I think a lot of women are trying, there are women like Mona Eltahawy, Amina Wudud, Irshad Manji, although they are in the west. There are women like the ones who recently organized a campaign for women to drive cars themselves in Saudi Arabia

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8MROOGba94

    But this raises questions like:
    - Who gets to even have a car to drive? Only women from upper classes.... so then this is similar to early American feminism, IMHO.
    - Is consumerism the only kind of freedom worth fighting for?
    - By driving, these women would still be feeding the oilagarchs, so it's kind of one of the superficial things to aspire to, it would seem to be, as the underlying inequalities are not going away just because some women from the upper classes told their drivers to take a smoke break while they drove to the glistening malls themselves.

    In Pakistan, there are huge differences in how privileged women from upper classes are compared to the majority of women who are not from those classes. But overall, they don't fare well, but then, neither do a lot of Pakistani men. There was a very interesting article I came across recently about the lack of a sense of "sisterhood" in Pakistan.

    So I don't know... I just ranted a lot, but this is an interesting topic and I'll read over what others have written here and in other places, and share anything else relevant that I find.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Women's liberation in the Muslim world-- strategic considerations
     Reply #27 - July 03, 2011, 03:25 AM

    Then why do you think there appears to be greater inequality in the Muslim world in general - or are you saying this is not the case


    because they're third world countries.

    by the way, in many parts of Latin America (which is a part of the Christian West) women are treated worse than shit, which is against their laws, of course, but like the OP is probably suggesting, it has to do with the community itself.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Women's liberation in the Muslim world-- strategic considerations
     Reply #28 - July 03, 2011, 03:30 AM

    because they're third world countries.

    by the way, in many parts of Latin America (which is a part of the Christian West) women are treated worse than shit, which is against their laws, of course, but like the OP is probably suggesting, it has to do with the community itself.

    same in parts of Christian Africa too, but I still think its a problem that disproportionately is affected by Islam

    because they're third world countries.

    and what do you think is the root cause of this

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  • Re: Women's liberation in the Muslim world-- strategic considerations
     Reply #29 - July 03, 2011, 03:30 AM

    Quote
    debunker

    because they're third world countries.

    by the way, in many parts of Latin America (which is a part of the Christian West) women are treated worse than shit, which is against their laws, of course, but like the OP is probably suggesting, it has to do with the community itself.


    That's part of reason why women's liberation is so hard to bring to Muslim countries because many of them are third world countries.
     


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