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 Topic: Pedophilia and current rationalizations

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  • Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     OP - July 03, 2011, 03:39 PM
    So I put up a status on FB (first line below), and a good friend of mine from college, who is married and has a daughter, comments.

    ME:I wanted to try a sunnah, but turns out pedophilia is illegal.

    FRIEND: What r u talking about?

    ME When Muhammed married Aisha, she was 6 years old. They consummated their marriage when she was 9 years old.

    FRIEND: ‎1. You are comparing marriage practices in the 5th century and 21st.
            2. Abu Bakir, the father of Aisha asked prophet Muhammad SAW to take his daughter as a bride.
            3. Check the definition of pedophile.

    ME: I thought Islam was a religion for all people of all times? Since when was it OK for any of us to be pedophiles in the 21st century? And pedophilia is when someone engages in sex with a person that is unable to give consent: including children.

    FRIEND: You are correct about Islam being the religion for all people of all time. So is your definition of pedophilia. The reason why I mentioned the big difference in time was that the age of consent at that time was different. Today in the 21st century it ranges from 12-18 years of age. I am no Islamic scholar so i am probably missing important points but I am just surprised by what you are saying. Not only are you making fun but falsely accusing prophet Muhammed saw. Seems like you have changed your views on religion...

    ME: It's true, I have. And I don't think it's any different inserting your penis in a 9 year old girl back in the 9th century compared to today: that's sick at any time in history. If you think that what Muhammed did back then was right but think that having sex with 9 year olds is wrong, then you have an inconsistent morality: either your morality is superior (in which case you provide a counterexample to the fact that Islam has a perfect and absolute moral system), or you pick and choose what you believe (again, showing that you think you know better in some cases because it is unacceptable now or that you do agree but aren't allowed to practice). My point is that Muhammed is portrayed to be second to God, but he was not a "perfect" being, he was morally bankrupt and I think my example backs this up perfectly.

    There was no reply after this (it's be 3 days). I find his thought process to be completely devoid of actual thought not only because he contradicts his own beliefs, but that he doesn't even bother questioning what it is he's spewing. Thoughts?
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #1 - July 03, 2011, 04:07 PM
    Quite typical, I'd say. When they have no arguments left, most ideologues resort to ad-hominems. That may be the only response you get from your friend, if any.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #2 - July 03, 2011, 04:19 PM
    Quote from: kleine Bruder on July 03, 2011, 03:39 PM
    ME:I wanted to try a sunnah, but turns out pedophilia is illegal.

     Cheesy
    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #3 - July 03, 2011, 04:29 PM
    Stray question: should abandoning a religion free one from the obligation to consider fixed moral views to be valid backwards and forwards through history?
    Before it gets too late, you will find escape.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #4 - July 03, 2011, 04:37 PM
    Quote from: toor on July 03, 2011, 04:29 PM
    Stray question: should abandoning a religion free one from the obligation to consider fixed moral views to be valid backwards and forwards through history?


    I will answer that question a little differently from how you have asked it: one must be free from that obligation even whilst religious. People are, they do see many moral issues in religions like Islam and Judaism. Some choose to rationalize them (forgetting that their rationalizations often makes them contradict the fact that their religion is absolute), while some choose to adopt tradition and stay away from questioning said moral issues.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #5 - July 03, 2011, 04:43 PM
    Quote from: kleine Bruder on July 03, 2011, 03:39 PM
    So I put up a status on FB (first line below), and a good friend of mine from college, who is married and has a daughter, comments.

    ME:I wanted to try a sunnah, but turns out pedophilia is illegal.

    FRIEND: What r u talking about?

    ME When Muhammed married Aisha, she was 6 years old. They consummated their marriage when she was 9 years old.

    FRIEND: ‎1. You are comparing marriage practices in the 5th century and 21st.
            2. Abu Bakir, the father of Aisha asked prophet Muhammad SAW to take his daughter as a bride.
            3. Check the definition of pedophile.


    Your friend is wrong.  Abu Bakr did NOT ask him to take his daughter as a bride, infact Mohammed requested it and said she had been revealed to him in a dream.

    Abu Bakr protested, he said "But you are my brother" to which mohammed replied, only in Islam so it was ok.

    Volume 7, Book 62, Number 18:

        Narrated 'Ursa:

        The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."

    This is a great link : http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Aisha%27s_Age_of_Consummation  For comparing the DSM defintion of peadophilia with Mohammed.

    Quote

    ME: I thought Islam was a religion for all people of all times? Since when was it OK for any of us to be pedophiles in the 21st century? And pedophilia is when someone engages in sex with a person that is unable to give consent: including children.

    FRIEND: You are correct about Islam being the religion for all people of all time. So is your definition of pedophilia. The reason why I mentioned the big difference in time was that the age of consent at that time was different. Today in the 21st century it ranges from 12-18 years of age. I am no Islamic scholar so i am probably missing important points but I am just surprised by what you are saying. Not only are you making fun but falsely accusing prophet Muhammed saw. Seems like you have changed your views on religion...

    ME: It's true, I have. And I don't think it's any different inserting your penis in a 9 year old girl back in the 9th century compared to today: that's sick at any time in history. If you think that what Muhammed did back then was right but think that having sex with 9 year olds is wrong, then you have an inconsistent morality: either your morality is superior (in which case you provide a counterexample to the fact that Islam has a perfect and absolute moral system), or you pick and choose what you believe (again, showing that you think you know better in some cases because it is unacceptable now or that you do agree but aren't allowed to practice). My point is that Muhammed is portrayed to be second to God, but he was not a "perfect" being, he was morally bankrupt and I think my example backs this up perfectly.

    There was no reply after this (it's be 3 days). I find his thought process to be completely devoid of actual thought not only because he contradicts his own beliefs, but that he doesn't even bother questioning what it is he's spewing. Thoughts?


    As I said, read the wikilink, your friend is wrong on every score. 
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #6 - July 03, 2011, 04:55 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on July 03, 2011, 04:43 PM

    This is a great link : http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Aisha%27s_Age_of_Consummation  For comparing the DSM defintion of peadophilia with Mohammed.

    As I said, read the wikilink, your friend is wrong on every score. 


    Thank you, that is indeed a great link! And yes, I did notice that he was incorrect, but that was not what I had wanted him to question, rather what Muhammed actually did by fucking a 9 year old.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #7 - July 03, 2011, 05:00 PM
    Quote from: kleine Bruder on July 03, 2011, 04:55 PM
    Thank you, that is indeed a great link! And yes, I did notice that he was incorrect, but that was not what I had wanted him to question, rather what Muhammed actually did by fucking a 9 year old.


    Well that is one of the common arguments as to why it was ok, that Abu Bakr was for it, that it was the norm, that girls matured faster (which they didn't) back then, and that because mohammed had older wives he therefore wasn;t a pedo.

    It's insane (and I say this from the POV of an old believer) that there is a disconnect between knowing that pedophilia is dangerous and wrong, yet not being able to tie in mohammed having sex with a 9yr old girl.

    Maybe post some pics of 9yr old girls to show just how child like they actually look, that always drives home the point. 
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #8 - July 03, 2011, 05:12 PM
    Quote
    because mohammed had older wives he therefore wasn;t a pedo.


    That's the silliest argument of all.  Having sex with a nine yr old, even if its a one off event - which it wasn't in Mohammed's case - would land you in prison in this day and age.  How can someone who did that be considered an example to follow for all time?  Might as well set Ghengis Khan up as the most perfect man who ever lived.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #9 - July 03, 2011, 05:37 PM
    Yep. I'm sure many pedos and rapists have wives and girlfriends (except for "celibate" pedos among catholic clergy), that doesn't mean anything in terms of their actions as pedos or rapists.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #10 - July 03, 2011, 05:51 PM
    Quote from: kleine Bruder on July 03, 2011, 04:37 PM
    I will answer that question a little differently from how you have asked it: one must be free from that obligation even whilst religious. People are, they do see many moral issues in religions like Islam and Judaism. Some choose to rationalize them (forgetting that their rationalizations often makes them contradict the fact that their religion is absolute), while some choose to adopt tradition and stay away from questioning said moral issues.


    I worded my question quite specifically. You seem to be imposing some distinctly contemporary views on sexual morality upon accounts of a society in which, by all accounts, womanhood was contingent upon the menarche. I can only point out that even if all hagiographical significance is stripped from the story of Mo and Aisha, the moral criticism remains ahistorical.

    Which is fair enough, if you're happy with that.

    Stray question #2: at what point do our moral judgements fail the test of time?
    Before it gets too late, you will find escape.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #11 - July 03, 2011, 06:15 PM
    Quote from: toor on July 03, 2011, 05:51 PM
    I worded my question quite specifically. You seem to be imposing some distinctly contemporary views on sexual morality upon accounts of a society in which, by all accounts, womanhood was contingent upon the menarche. I can only point out that even if all hagiographical significance is stripped from the story of Mo and Aisha, the moral criticism remains ahistorical.

    Which is fair enough, if you're happy with that.

    Stray question #2: at what point do our moral judgements fail the test of time?


    I'll cut right to the chase. You want someone to admit that our morality is not absolute either. That is true and I can not contend that. HOWEVER, you CAN measure the benefit to society based on how moral issues are codified as law in countries, and anecdotally you can measure it by how a culture adopts a particular moral. Granted that we have problems, but compared to medieval and premedieval eras, we're lucky sons'o bitches. This is all thanks to stronger enforcement of agreed upon morals (e.g. killing, fraud, debauchery, etc.). Furthermore, we can now use biology to dictate further morals (e.g. how pedophilia is wrong, how to medically and socially treat people with mental illnesses, etc.). So no, we're not perfect nor are we absolute, but we're fucking better.

    {Edit} Forgot to talk about your question! Basically, the point of questioning the morality of that time is to refute the claim that "X religion is the best and true because it's got the best absolute morals, it's for all human beings in all time periods." Your question however asks a philosophical question which I can't help but think of as mental masturbation  Cheesy
    I'm no philosopher nor do I pretend to be. I hope my answers will be satisfactory, although I don't think they will.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #12 - July 03, 2011, 06:18 PM
    Quote from: toor on July 03, 2011, 05:51 PM
    I can only point out that even if all hagiographical significance is stripped from the story of Mo and Aisha, the moral criticism remains ahistorical.

    True, but this is old Mo we are talking about here. Al-Insān al-Kāmil. On top of that Islam does claim to be ahistorical anyway.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #13 - July 03, 2011, 06:58 PM
     
    Quote from: toor on July 03, 2011, 04:29 PM
    Stray question: should abandoning a religion free one from the obligation to consider fixed moral views to be valid backwards and forwards through history?


    All religions, especially abrahamic ones claim to be timeless and transhistoric.

    Abandoning religion means being able to see religion from the outside, but we still have to be able to see the religion as those on the inside see it. Of course we know, as ex/non-muslims that Mo was not the eternally perfect role model for all time as islam teaches muslims he was. But that doesn't mean that muslims don't believe that. And since they do believe that, it is a contradiction they hold that his pedophiliac ways are supposedly excusable because he was a product of his time, while, according to what they're taught, he is a role model for all time.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #14 - July 03, 2011, 07:00 PM
    Quote from: allat on July 03, 2011, 06:58 PM

    All religions, especially abrahamic ones claim to be timeless and transhistoric.

    Abandoning religion means being able to see religion from the outside, but we still have to be able to see the religion as those on the inside see it. Of course we know, as ex/non-muslims that Mo was not the eternally perfect role model for all time as islam teaches muslims he was. But that doesn't mean that muslims don't believe that. And since they do believe that, it is a contradiction they hold that his pedophiliac ways are supposedly excusable because he was a product of his time, while he is a role model for all time.


    Eh, thanks allat! Better than my garbled run-on sentences!
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #15 - July 03, 2011, 07:02 PM
     Afro
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #16 - July 03, 2011, 07:03 PM
    I find it funny that after Khadijah died (they don't even deny that he married her for her wealth) that the first female he truly chose to wed (he saw it in a "dream" a wet dream is more believable) was aicha
    "Ours is the age which is proud of machines that think and suspicious of men who try to."
    هذا من فضل جدي
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #17 - July 03, 2011, 07:12 PM
    Yeah once his sugar mama died, he found a sugar baby and then a dozen other wives, and a bunch of war booty sex slaves too. Grin
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #18 - July 03, 2011, 07:16 PM
    Quote from: allat on July 03, 2011, 07:12 PM
    Yeah once his sugar mama died, he found a sugar baby and then a dozen other wives, and a bunch of war booty sex slaves too. Grin


    I really like the story presented by one of the new members (it's a whole script!) which I can't find at the moment: Khadija the mastermind who perpetuated a 1500 year old cult.

    An aside: I just noticed allat that the CEMB twitter needs new tweets!
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #19 - July 03, 2011, 07:24 PM
    Quote from: kleine Bruder on July 03, 2011, 07:16 PM
    An aside: I just noticed allat that the CEMB twitter needs new tweets!


    True! I've been so busy, was barely even on here most of this year. This reminds me, I've been meaning to start a thread to collect suggestions for threads to highlight and tweet about.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #20 - July 03, 2011, 07:29 PM
    Quote from: allat on July 03, 2011, 07:24 PM
    True! I've been so busy, was barely even on here most of this year. This reminds me, I've been meaning to start a thread to collect suggestions for threads to highlight and tweet about.



    Awesome.  whistling2  So... what are you waiting for?
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #21 - July 03, 2011, 07:33 PM
    Check it out (and contribute!!). Wink
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #22 - July 03, 2011, 08:27 PM
    Quote from: allat on July 03, 2011, 06:58 PM

    All religions, especially abrahamic ones claim to be timeless and transhistoric.

    Abandoning religion means being able to see religion from the outside, but we still have to be able to see the religion as those on the inside see it. Of course we know, as ex/non-muslims that Mo was not the eternally perfect role model for all time as islam teaches muslims he was. But that doesn't mean that muslims don't believe that. And since they do believe that, it is a contradiction they hold that his pedophiliac ways are supposedly excusable because he was a product of his time, while, according to what they're taught, he is a role model for all time.


    Religions may claim to be all sorts of things, but ultimately they tell us more about the circumstances surrounding their birth and early development than anything else.

    Hence my standpoint on bad history. Calling Mo a paedo for having sex with a child - at a time when 9 year-olds who had achieved their first period were considered women - doesn't sound right to me; this tells me is that the Sirah is in some aspects repugnant to more recent sensibilities. It goes without saying that I also think of the hagiographical treatments of Mo as poor history, that should ruthlessly be exposed for what they are; but we cannot do this and shamelessly abandon the conventions of good history ourselves.
    Before it gets too late, you will find escape.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #23 - July 03, 2011, 08:31 PM
    Quote
    Calling Mo a paedo for having sex with a child at a time when 9 year-olds who had achieved their first period were considered women doesn't sound right to me


    It does to me.  Paedophilia may have been more socially acceptable in times past, but that doesn't mean we need to invent a whole new word for it.  When the Ancient Greeks had sex with young boys, historians describe the practice as pederasty, when the Ancient Egyptians had sex with their sisters historians record the practice as incest.  So when a 7th century Arab has sex with a nine yr old, I see nothing inconsistent with using the modern term to describe what he did.  Obviously it doesn't necessarily subject the Greeks, etc to the same modern day judgement which we attach to the word, but it is still an accurate description.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #24 - July 03, 2011, 08:41 PM
    Quote from: toor on July 03, 2011, 08:27 PM
    Hence my standpoint on bad history. Calling Mo a paedo for having sex with a child - at a time when 9 year-olds who had achieved their first period were considered women - doesn't sound right to me

    Would you be able to have sex with a nine year old? 
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #25 - July 03, 2011, 08:52 PM
    Quote from: toor on July 03, 2011, 08:27 PM
    Religions may claim to be all sorts of things, but ultimately they tell us more about the circumstances surrounding their birth and early development than anything else.

    Hence my standpoint on bad history. Calling Mo a paedo for having sex with a child - at a time when 9 year-olds who had achieved their first period were considered women - doesn't sound right to me; this tells me is that the Sirah is in some aspects repugnant to more recent sensibilities. It goes without saying that I also think of the hagiographical treatments of Mo as poor history, that should ruthlessly be exposed for what they are; but we cannot do this and shamelessly abandon the conventions of good history ourselves.


    Yeah I do see what you're saying. It's like the "Founding Fathers" of the US owned slaves, yet they are often mythologized to be supremely good and totally moral people in US nationalistic politics. Everything from "but everyone owned slaves then" to "but these guys really treated their slaves well" is given as a rationale when you bring up this fact.

    And yes a level of sophistication is good to have to recognize the contextual realities of everyone and everything past and present.

    I'm with you on that. And personally, I have stopped going around calling Mo a pedo. The only time I do bring it up is if/when a Muslim dogmatically insists on Mo's moral perfection. These days, I don't interact with Muslims like that in my own life, so I never actually even get a chance to delve into this at all.

    But the fact is that it is the hagiography, the mythologized infallibility of Mo that is a huge part of the problem. As long as Mo is seen as this mythical, infallible, perfect, deity-like figure who must never be doubted or challenged, Muslims can't challenge the mullahs or the scriptures. It is Mo's hagiography that has to be brought down from its pedestal before there can be any critical thought/reform/liberalization in Islam.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #26 - July 03, 2011, 08:55 PM
    Quote from: toor on July 03, 2011, 08:27 PM
    Religions may claim to be all sorts of things, but ultimately they tell us more about the circumstances surrounding their birth and early development than anything else.

    Hence my standpoint on bad history. Calling Mo a paedo for having sex with a child - at a time when 9 year-olds who had achieved their first period were considered women - doesn't sound right to me; this tells me is that the Sirah is in some aspects repugnant to more recent sensibilities. It goes without saying that I also think of the hagiographical treatments of Mo as poor history, that should ruthlessly be exposed for what they are; but we cannot do this and shamelessly abandon the conventions of good history ourselves.


    Ok, by Islam's defintion of a child, Aisha was still a child when mohammed had sex with her, there is no mention of her having had a period, infact she was still playing with dolls, which was something only a child was allowed to do.

    Plus, the whole girls matured faster back then, well really did they:

    Quote
       Historical Data on Age at Menarche

        Early data

        Ancient Rome 12-14

        Medieval Europe 12-14

       Medieval Middle East 12-13

        Nineteenth Century

        Manchester 1840s

            working class women 15.7

            upper class women 14.6

        London 1855 (hospital patients) 15.5

        Germany 1869 15.7

        Scotland 1870 15.6-16.6

        London 1880 (middle class) 15

        U.S.A. late 19th century 12-14

        Early 20th Century

        USA 1905 14-15.7

    http://www.mum.org/menarage.htm


    In none of these figures does the data reflect a trend for puberty at 9.

    It does happen, but very rarely.  And since Islam says no more dolls when puberty begins, but aisha was playing with dolls, she had not yet hit puberty.

    Therefore he is indeed a pedo.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #27 - July 03, 2011, 09:02 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on July 03, 2011, 08:55 PM
    Ok, by Islam's defintion of a child, Aisha was still a child when mohammed had sex with her, there is no mention of her having had a period, infact she was still playing with dolls, which was something only a child was allowed to do.

    Plus, the whole girls matured faster back then, well really did they:

    In none of these figures does the data reflect a trend for puberty at 9.

    It does happen, but very rarely.  And since Islam says no more dolls when puberty begins, but aisha was playing with dolls, she had not yet hit puberty.

    Therefore he is indeed a pedo.


    I love it when you punch someone in the face with facts. Afro

     eddie Berbs you rock! Punk

    I couldn't choose between the two Roll Eyes
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #28 - July 03, 2011, 09:06 PM
    I don't understand the whole logic of saying you can't use the word paedophile in the first place.  No other historical civilisation gets its sexual practices described in anything other than modern language, why should 7th century Arabia be any different?  Apparently female infanticide was common back then too, but nobody has kittens when you call it female infanticide, so why shouldn't it be acceptable to describe Mohammed's union with Aisha as paedophilia?

    Besides, if you follow that logic, nobody would be able to use modern words to describe historical acts.  Nobody could write about Mohammed at all unless they wrote in 7th century Arabic, and nobody could write about Ancient Egypt unless they wrote in heiroglyphics.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #29 - July 03, 2011, 09:31 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on July 03, 2011, 08:55 PM
    Ok, by Islam's defintion of a child, Aisha was still a child when mohammed had sex with her, there is no mention of her having had a period, infact she was still playing with dolls, which was something only a child was allowed to do.

    Plus, the whole girls matured faster back then, well really did they:

    In none of these figures does the data reflect a trend for puberty at 9.

    It does happen, but very rarely.  And since Islam says no more dolls when puberty begins, but aisha was playing with dolls, she had not yet hit puberty.

    Therefore he is indeed a pedo.


    She stopped playing with dolls when she moved to Medinah ie the time when the marriage was consummated. She participated in the battle of uhud (according to a 'sahih' hadith) something which 'mature' men and women were only allowed to do. Also she was engaged to a man called Jober Ibn Al Moteam Ibn Oday before she got with Mo. And we're assuming she was 9, some say she was about 17-20 (according to the age of her elder sister) was it paedophilia? I don't know. Was it a norm back then? I think it was. If it wasn't then the quraish and others would have used it against him, they tried everything else, why not that? but they didn't.
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