Miracles of the Quran channel: A half-way analysis.

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- cosmicdancer
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Re: Miracles of the Quran channel: A half-way analysis.
Reply #30 - July 17, 2011, 08:08 PM

Quote from: WhoMan on July 17, 2011, 08:00 PM
Hassan,
I'm not sure what it signifies, there is variance of opinion, what do you think it signifies?
As I said, all I know is, it is open and does not allow one interpretation only in this case. Thus, to argue along the lines of "most people think the book meant X, but X is wrong, that means the book is wrong" is a logical fallacy. I'm not interested in that kind of "refutation".

I have not been online much recently so I haven't read your posts apart from these, but I get the impression you are in 'protection and damage limitation' mode rather than opening yourself out to a totally honest rational discussion - wherever that may lead.

I've been there, my friend - I wish you better luck than I had.
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Re: Miracles of the Quran channel: A half-way analysis.
Reply #31 - July 21, 2011, 07:51 PM

Hi mc,

Watched the 3rd video.

Firstly, a better translation of 54:1-2 would be:

the hour has drawn near and the moon has breached/split. [54:1]
And if they see a sign they turn away and say "magic continuing [54:2]

"wa-in" means "and if" and all verbs in 54:2 are imperfect tense, NOT perfect/past tense.

Again, you go on to critique Traditional interpretation of the verse, which I agree is nonsensical, however that does not actually debunk The Quran, only the interpretation. Perhaps you should change the title of your video to "Islam miracle debunked...." or "Tafsir miracle debunked..."?

For an alternative view of this verse, see here, it has both for and against:

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islamic_Prophecies:_Moon_landing

Quote
The date this prophecy came to pass was on July 21 1969. The moment the prophecy was fulfilled is confirmed by the hour of departure of the lunar module, which left the lunar surface at 17:54:1 (Universal Time) or 1:54:1 (EDT) and as you have seen above, verse [54:1] is the verse that deals with the prophecy.

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- WhoMan
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Re: Miracles of the Quran channel: A half-way analysis.
Reply #32 - July 29, 2011, 08:20 PM

what, no response?

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- Homo Sapien
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Re: Miracles of the Quran channel: A half-way analysis.
Reply #33 - July 29, 2011, 09:11 PM

Whoman- the crux of your argument in this thread is ridiculous & pointless. You are arguing that nothing in the Quran can be factually incorrect & that it is just the interpretations that are incorrect (even those stated in Tafsirs by very learned scholars of Islam) The same statement can easily go the other way. I could easily argue that all 'your' interpretations are wrong & that the Quran is factually incorrect in most cases, based on my interpretations.
An important point to digest here is that Allah would not have made his message ambigous & open to multiple interpretations if his objective is to communicate a final message to mankind for all of the remainder of the existence of mankind.
Therefore, the quran is clearly not divine.

When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood by its nature is bound to perish.
- cosmicdancer
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Re: Miracles of the Quran channel: A half-way analysis.
Reply #34 - July 29, 2011, 09:42 PM

Whoman what are your thoughts on Hell?
- Kenan
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Re: Miracles of the Quran channel: A half-way analysis.
Reply #35 - July 29, 2011, 10:18 PM

Quote from: WhoMan on July 17, 2011, 08:00 PM
Thus, to argue along the lines of "most people think the book meant X, but X is wrong, that means the book is wrong" is a logical fallacy.

It doesn't mean that the book is wrong, what it does mean though that the interpretation (in this case very much the mainstream one) clearly contradicts observable phenomena and is therefore wrong.
Strictly speaking this is what mighty_cats was addressing - 'Quranic miracles' as understood and defended by Zakir Naik and such and then uncritically reproduced by lots of gullible individuals.

If you don't mind me asking - Quran is supposed to be plain, clear and manifest, written in clear Arabic etc. Implication is that the majority of people should be able to understand it without any problems whatsoever. That is obviously not the case. You particular interpretation is somewhat obscure - and I don't mean that in a derogatory way. Doesn't that contradict the claim of clear Arabic?
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Re: Miracles of the Quran channel: A half-way analysis.
Reply #36 - July 30, 2011, 02:17 PM

homo sapien,

Quote
You are arguing that nothing in the Quran can be factually incorrect & that it is just the interpretations that are incorrect

Nope, that is not my argument at all. This is your own logical fallacy known as a strawman argument. I'm not even sure if I'm presenting an argument.

My simple point was that I asked mc for the strongest quran refutation videos he/she had, and he showed me zero with actually any factually incorrect info. Granted, I have not watched them all yet, just the first 3.

There may well be factually incorrect info in Quran, but not in the first 3 videos so far. Simple.

And yes, interpretations can be wrong, and yes, you can flip it around on me, and say my interpretations may be wrong, and that is a fair point. But as I said, this does not actually debunk the Quran, only an interpretation.

Kenan,
Thanks for clarifying what was actually shown by the videos. That is all I am saying.

Quote
Doesn't that contradict the claim of clear Arabic?

Almost all of the alleged obscure/ambiguous verses are not core teachings, from my reading. All core teachings are fairly clear. Perhaps the inheritance shares/fractions are a little complex but I personally have not studied it, but even that, it says one should have a will ideally, thus this may not even need to be determined etc.

Of course, what is "clear" is subjective, and one part of the problem is Muslims have been told rubbish about Islam, thus when they read much of what Quran says, they see it through their corrupted lens and may think its unclear.
If you have read my intro post, you will know I view Traditional Hadith as a mix of truth and falsehood and nonsense and much of Islam, and thus Quran interpretation, is based on that.

What am I? Deist / Quranist <--- Click links to Find Out More
- Homo Sapien
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Re: Miracles of the Quran channel: A half-way analysis.
Reply #37 - July 31, 2011, 11:20 AM

Quote from: WhoMan on July 30, 2011, 02:17 PM
But as I said, this does not actually debunk the Quran, only an interpretation.

Subjective- it does debunk Quran or a section/verse of the Quran if the interpretation is deemed a correct one held by a clear majority of learned scholars of Islam of the past & present. Your lone voice or interpretation does not present a strong case. If that same strongly supprted interpretation then goes on to directly contradict modern established scientific fact then consider that a debunking.

"Of course, what is "clear" is subjective, and one part of the problem is Muslims have been told rubbish about Islam, thus when they read much of what Quran says, they see it through their corrupted lens and may think its unclear."

- If a divine final message from our creator is subjective, unclear & open to interpretation then that makes our creator a poor communicator. You previously stated to prince Spinoza that you were unsure about whether the Quran was from a divine source & that you needed to do more research. Are you still unsure & do you disagree with the statement I have just made?

When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood by its nature is bound to perish.
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Re: Miracles of the Quran channel: A half-way analysis.
Reply #38 - July 31, 2011, 05:39 PM

homo sapien,

"lone voice" implies single. On the contrary, many have a similar view to what I stated earlier. In fact, if you asked Muslims now, a reasonable number would likely not agree with the moon actually splitting and falling to earth story.

Anyways, thanks for clarifying you equate: debunking of majority interpretation as debunking Quran, which is a mixture of "appeal to authority / common practice / popularity / tradition" logical fallacy.
e.g.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html

I'm not interested in that kind of fallacious argument.

Quote
Are you still unsure & do you disagree with the statement I have just made?

Still unsure.

I recommend reading 3:7, and other verses on this subject, e.g. 2:26 etc.

What am I? Deist / Quranist <--- Click links to Find Out More
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