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Theme Changer

 Topic: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway

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  • Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
     Reply #60 - July 23, 2011, 10:11 AM

    Another of his posts:


    2009-12-01 12:02:38
    Eddy,

    Controllers - dominate, not necessarily very big difference. The common denominator in all historical cases, dhimmitude + demographic warfare. Are non-Muslims on Furuset, Holmlia today dhimmis? Yes, of course they do. Why do you think they systematically choose to move?

    Why do you think Furuset, Holmlia and other areas in Oslo soon be emptied of non-Muslims? Enklaviseringen in Oslo East continues slowly but surely every day.

    For those words must have it with a teaspoon (this may be fine with a small demographic history reminder now and then):

    Kosovo demographical development [1]:

    1900 40% Islam
    1913 50%
    1925 60%
    1948 72%
    1971 79%
    1981 85%
    2008 93%

    Source:

    1. http://www.serbianna.com/columns/savich/011.shtml # 6

    Lebanon demographical development - (Christian / Muslim pop) [1]:

    1911 to 21% Islam
    1921 to 45%
    1932 to 49%
    1943 to 48%
    1970 to 58% (Civil War 1975-1990 started When Islam reached 60%)
    1990 to 65% (Christians lost the war)
    2008 to 75%

    Source:

    1. Tomass Mark, Game Theory with instrumentally irrational players: A Case Study of Civil War and Sectarian Cleansing, Journal of Economic Issues, Lincoln, June 1997.

    Bethlehem

    Source 1

    1948 85% Christian [1]
    2006 12% Christian [1]

    Source 2

    1948 to 60% Christian [2]
    1983 to 20% Christian [2]

    Source:

    1. http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=23696_Christmas_Disappears_from_Bethlehem&only
    2. http://www.danielpipes.org/1050/disappearing-christians-in-the-middle-east
    3. http://www.danielpipes.org/1050/disappearing-christians-in-the-middle-east

    Anatolia (Turkey)

    1300 to 99% Christian
    1450 to 90% (3 years before the fall of Constantinople)
    1600 to 55%
    1850 to 35% (Genocide / forceful conversions intensifies)
    1900 to 20%
    1920 to 15%
    1945 to 6% (Focus shift two persecution of Muslim Kurds)
    1980 to 3%
    2009 to 1%

    1. http://home.att.net/ ~ dimostenis / greektr.html
    2. See all sources from Historic Balkans and Anatolia demo graphics

    Syria [1]

    1920 to 33% Christian
    2007 to 10% (Would ask for less than 5% if it Were not for the Christian immigration from Iraq).

    1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mandate_of_Syria.png
    2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria

    Pakistan (Hindu / Muslim Population) [1]

    1941 to 25% Hindus
    1948 to 17%
    1991 to 1.5%
    2007 to 1%

    Bangladesh (Hindu / Muslim Population) [1]

    1941 to 30% Hindus
    1948 to 25%
    1971 to 15%
    1991 to 10%
    2007 to 8%

    2008 - Numbers and Percentage of Muslims in many European cities (legal / illegal Including city suburbs) [1] [2] [3]:

    Marseilles 38%
    Malmo 35%
    Brussels 35%
    Amsterdam 30%
    Stockholm 20%
    London 20%
    Paris 20%
    Oslo 20%
    Moscow 16-20%
    Berlin 18%
    The Hague 17%
    Copenhagen 17%
    Utrecht 15%
    Rotterdam 15%
    Antwerp 15%
    Hamburg 15%

    Sources:

    1. http://www.globalpolitician.com/24799-europe
    2. http://tinyfrog.wordpress.com/2009/05/03/muslim-demographics/
    3. Indymedia.be Notes That Brussels is 25.5% Muslim

    What then is the common denominator in all these historical cases?

    Islam + dhimmitude + demographic warfare (Jihad)
  • Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
     Reply #61 - July 23, 2011, 10:13 AM

    Another of his posts:

    2009-11-29 22:39:59
    Daniel Pipes: Leftism and Islam. Muslims, the warriors Marxists Have Been praying for.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO6RgVo8Hd8&feature=player_embedded

    The following summarizes the agenda of many kulturmarxister with Islam, it explains also why those on death and life protecting them. It explains so well why we, the cultural conservatives, are against Islamization and the implementation of these agendas.

    Yellow,

    I have great respect for kulturmarxister that are tough NOK to admit his true intentions. It is very annoying however, that 90% of all kulturmarxister directly lying to the people by hiding / hide their agenda behind the "humanism and human rights".

    Are you tough NOK to admit that this is your agenda, Yellow, or claiming you are still you run of "humanism"? It is the sense to discuss if one side refuses to admit his true intentions.

    Most of us cultural conservatives are honest NOK to admit that we are working towards Marxism and Marxist principles (which is the main reason we are against the ongoing Islamization when we look at the Ummah as an entity that promotes the Marxist principles, among others). So why can not you be tough NOK to admit that it really your agenda is to work for the implementation of Marxist principles and that you look at Muslims as a natural ally (for practical reasons and not the humanities).

    We know by the way all of what happened to the Christians Marxists in Lebanon. Lebanon was once a Christian country (80% in 1911). When the Muslims were in majority in 1970 (an increase of 40% in just 60 years), they declared war. The reason that they were in that situation was due to the Marxist's appeasement policy (they allowed demographic warfare). Marxists thought that they would get an extra special dhimmi status, which of course did not happen. There are now fewer than 25% Christians in Lebanon and even the Christian Marxists living in a difficult situation. Do you really think you will get a special dhimmistatus few decades in Western Europe when all the historical examples show that Christians Marxists being stabbed in the back end again and again?

    It is strange why they never learn from historical examples? Kulturmarxister have much in common with Muslims, but at the end of the day the matter considered by the Ummah as gudshatende and gay-loving infidel, which is incompatible with Islam. The result is that they once again will be betrayed by the Ummah.

    It is quite ironic that the Ummah has more respect for their opponents, the cultural conservative, than their allies, kulturmarxistene, they only see as "temporary" useful idiots.

    They get to enjoy the alliance as long as it lasts:)
  • Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
     Reply #62 - July 23, 2011, 10:15 AM

    And this one talking about "The Key Islamic Doctrine of Taqiyya!" (and the bullshit talked about Naskh) do those bastards who peddle all this bullshit about Taqiyya, know what they are stirring up! People like Robert Spencer, Gert Wilders and other cheer-leaders of the right-wing Muslim haters have a lot to answer for!


    2009-11-29 03:34:23
    The document was intended to be "approved" stamp by Lars M and yellow, they immediately become irrelevant. It is reasonably safe;)

    Most people here have nothing against Muslims in general, Muslims do not follow the Quran that is. It is the political doctrine of Islam is the problem.

    The problem is that key Islamic concepts such as al-taqiyya and naskh (Quranic abrogation) makes it more or less impossible to distinguish "moderate Muslims" (individuals who do not follow the Quran) from orthodox Muslims.
    Who do you first introduced the concept of "War is deceit "?Wink.

    Lars M. and Yellow,

    What are your reflections on the political concepts of al-taqiyya and naskh?
  • Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
     Reply #63 - July 23, 2011, 10:21 AM

    I can't help thinking how many times I've argued with people with such a mindset (elsewhere - but even occasionally here) - who think such views are reasonable - while I tell them that stirring up such paranoid shit will lead to to nothing but hatred and violence against innocent people.
  • Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
     Reply #64 - July 23, 2011, 10:52 AM



    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14260195

    The man arrested following the attacks in Norway, Anders Behring Breivik, describes himself as a "nationalist", according to the police.

    In the purest sense of the word, he is not alone. On this day of grief, Norwegian people have united under their flag, vowing to stand firm against terror.

    But the suspect, it seems, is no pure nationalist. Instead, he is said to be a right-wing extremist of the kind that police authorities in the West have feared for some time.

    Their fear has been heightened by the potentially explosive mix of economic recession and unemployment, increasing racism and an ever stronger anti-Muslim sentiment, according to the Norwegian newspaper Aftenposten.

    Norway's security police reported a mild increase in right-wing extremist activity last year and predicted that such activity would continue to increase throughout this year.

    But it also suggested that the movement was weak, lacked a central leader and offered relatively modest growth potential.

    Disorganised and chaotic
    Though members of the Norwegian far-right movement have carried out attacks in the past, it has historically been a small community, according to neo-Nazi watchers.

    The late Stieg Larsson, the Swedish crime writer famous for his Millennium trilogy, was one such expert.

    In the mid-1990s, he founded the anti-racist, anti-extremist publication Expo following a sharp rise in violence carried out by neo-Nazis.

    In an interview in connection with a documentary I was making at the time, he told me that Sweden was the world's largest producer of so-called White Power Music and other racist propaganda, with an active, fast-growing and violent neo-Nazi movement.

    By contrast, the Norwegian neo-Nazis were disorganised and chaotic, he said, citing an example of a large far-right gathering in Sweden attended by a small group of Norwegians.

    The Swedes were articulate, organised and smartly dressed, he recalled, whereas the Norwegians, who had arrived by coach, had been drinking all the way during their journey across the border and were thus largely incoherent and shabby in appearance.

    Edging into mainstream
    Since then, it seems Norwegian far-right extremists have created stronger links with criminal communities, as well as with similar groups abroad, in Europe, Russia and the US.

    Sweden, by contrast, has seen a sharp drop in far-right extremist activity since its peak in the mid-1990s, when every national newspaper in the country published identical editions with photos of every known neo-Nazi in the land.

    But at the same time, aspects of the far-right agenda have risen to greater prominence on the mainstream political arena, with Expo reporting how the revulsion displayed by the Swedish people during the 1990s is increasingly turning towards a curiosity about toned-down far-right rhetoric.

    Similar sentiments have been felt in Norway, where politicians have openly been voicing concerns about how the country's culture might be diluted by immigration from countries with different religions and values.

    Following the attacks in Oslo and on Utoeya, it will be interesting to see whether many in the country develop a more sophisticated view of where the greatest threats are coming from, amid a growing realisation that extremism is deadly regardless of nationality, ethnicity or religion.
  • Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
     Reply #65 - July 23, 2011, 11:38 AM

    I find it hard not to worry that the nightmare has arrived in full now.

    The mobilisation of a terrorist, murderous far-right in Europe is something I have worried about for a long, long time.

    The thuggishness of the EDL has been a harbinger of this.

    Really, thoroughly dispirited and depressed.




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
     Reply #66 - July 23, 2011, 12:15 PM

    For me there is still a large disconnect between those online posts that Hassan translated and his actions.
    The posts are "below average" FFI posts (i.e. there is crazier stuff on FFI) and one doesn't see FFI people out and about with guns.

    To me his posts show more of a libertarian/ small "c" conservative with some FFI type influence - which is an odd starting point for his actions.  

    I feel I am missing some piece to the puzzle...
     
    EDIT:
    Was just reading somewhere else that those posts stopped 9 months ago - i.e. enough time for him to become more radicalised. It would be interesting to know what he has done in the meantime.
  • Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
     Reply #67 - July 23, 2011, 12:58 PM

    i hate violence, and idiots   Cry


    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
     Reply #68 - July 23, 2011, 01:22 PM

    All prominent thinkers, speakers, activists etc... who take part in the debate about Islam have a heavy responsibility to choose their words carefully and weigh up the effect they have on ignorant, less discerning, easily influenced and unstable people.

    This is something I have said from day one - time and time again - I said it way back when I posted on FFI - It's simply unacceptable to say things like: "A good Muslim is not a good human being!" as Ali Sina said on FFI (I was derided and attacked of course for objecting to this demonisation back then).

    Thankfully Maryam Namazie understand this point well and CEMB is one of the few places where Islam is criticised without the hate, extreme rhetoric and misleading propaganda found on other sites.
  • Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
     Reply #69 - July 23, 2011, 02:03 PM

    Unlike David Copeland, the nail bomber who deliberately targeted ethnic and gay areas of London, this Norwegian gentleman seems to have targeted his own people, his government, and particularly Labour supporters.

    This is not an anti-Muslim attack as some Muslim organisations are making it out to be.

    .
  • Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
     Reply #70 - July 23, 2011, 02:11 PM

    It was an attack on the - as his paranoid mind saw it - the "Marxist" establishment that promotes "multiculturalism" and the "Marxist boot camp" (Labour Party Summer camp) that has many immigrant and Muslim members and their Norwegian "Marxist" supporters - that he sees as the problem.
  • Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
     Reply #71 - July 23, 2011, 02:16 PM

    Unlike David Copeland, the nail bomber who deliberately targeted ethnic and gay areas of London, this Norwegian gentleman seems to have targeted his own people, his government, and particularly Labour supporters.

    This is not an anti-Muslim attack as some Muslim organisations are making it out to be.


    Which Muslim organisations?
  • Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
     Reply #72 - July 23, 2011, 02:21 PM

    This is not an anti-Muslim attack.


    Yeah, clearly he has nothing against Muslims and it in no way contributed to his motives - move along everyone, nothing to see here. Roll Eyes
  • Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
     Reply #73 - July 23, 2011, 02:23 PM

    Right wing neo-nazi looks like the suspect.
  • Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
     Reply #74 - July 23, 2011, 02:43 PM

    All prominent thinkers, speakers, activists etc... who take part in the debate about Islam have a heavy responsibility to choose their words carefully and weigh up the effect they have on ignorant, less discerning, easily influenced and unstable people.

    This is something I have said from day one - time and time again - I said it way back when I posted on FFI - It's simply unacceptable to say things like: "A good Muslim is not a good human being!" as Ali Sina said on FFI (I was derided and attacked of course for objecting to this demonisation back then).

    Thankfully Maryam Namazie understand this point well and CEMB is one of the few places where Islam is criticised without the hate, extreme rhetoric and misleading propaganda found on other sites.


    I agree with that Hassan. But do you not acknowledge that to a certain degree, any criticism no matter how measured, rational and loaded with caveats, will be seized upon by two quarters in particular:

    (1) those on the far-right who will use it to essentialise all Muslims and feed their paranoia.

    (2) Islamists and those on the left who wish to paint all criticism of Islam as 'Islamophobic.

    Lets face it, those who wish to critique Islam rationally are caught between the devil and the deep blue sea, aren't they?



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
     Reply #75 - July 23, 2011, 02:48 PM

    Lets face it, those who wish to critique Islam rationally are caught between the devil and the deep blue sea, aren't they?

    Stray question: if such people are doomed to remain an excluded middle, is it mainly a question of saliency?
  • Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
     Reply #76 - July 23, 2011, 02:52 PM

    I agree with that Hassan. But do you not acknowledge that to a certain degree, any criticism no matter how measured, rational and loaded with caveats, will be seized upon by two quarters in particular:

    (1) those on the far-right who will use it to essentialise all Muslims and feed their paranoia.

    (2) Islamists and those on the left who wish to paint all criticism of Islam as 'Islamophobic.

    Lets face it, those who wish to critique Islam rationally are caught between the devil and the deep blue sea, aren't they?


    True, but so long as we are being balanced, fair and devoid of double standards and hate then we are acting responsibly and cannot be blamed for how others may react.

    But when ppl like Ali Sina say things like "A good Muslim is not a good human being",  or Robert Spencer, Gert Wilders and such people promote the idea that "Taqiyya" is a widely known and practiced - let alone - "key" - element of Islam - then they are being dishonest and irresponsible and handing paranoid psychos like this guy all the excuse they need - 'after all Muslims are sub-human lying vermin and getting rid of them is a service to humanity!'

    These people are massively responsible for fueling the hatred and paranoia of extremists - just as  some Sheikhs and Imams fuel the acts of Muslim terrorists - despite their protests that: "They never told them to bomb anyone!"
  • Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
     Reply #77 - July 23, 2011, 02:55 PM


    I've wrestled with this for years. My own feeling that decides the issue for me personally is this:

    What is the cost of silence? Is the cost greater or lesser for speaking out?

    In my view, and I've reached this over a long period of introspection, is that the cost of silence is that Islam and Islamism gets a free pass, which is even more catastrophic, because it will continue to assert itself, and that will feed the far-right paranoia and essentiallising of hyper-nationalist far-right Stormfront types in any case.

    Silence would also mean the death of free conscience, because in the face of a prosletysing religion, a taboo would be observed. And that, I believe, ultimately, would lead to the creation of an even worse climate and situation.

    What serves humanism and individual dignity? Silence or reasoned expression of free conscience?

    Everyone has to decide for themselves. Its not going to be easy. But there you go.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
     Reply #78 - July 23, 2011, 02:56 PM

    Stray question: if such people are doomed to remain an excluded middle, is it mainly a question of saliency?


    I don't get what you mean

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
     Reply #79 - July 23, 2011, 02:57 PM

    btw I just edited my last response.
  • Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
     Reply #80 - July 23, 2011, 03:09 PM

    True, but so long as we are being balanced, fair and devoid of double standards and hate then we are acting responsibly and cannot be blamed for how others may react.

    But when ppl like Ali Sina say things like "A good Muslim is not a good human being",  or Robert Spencer, Gert Wilders and such people promote the idea that "Taqiyya" is a widely known and practiced - let alone - "key" - element of Islam - then they are being dishonest and irresponsible and handing paranoid psychos like this guy all the excuse they need - 'after all Muslims are sub-human lying vermin and getting rid of them is a service to humanity!'

    These people are massively responsible for fueling the hatred and paranoia of extremists - just as  some Sheikhs and Imams fuel the acts of Muslim terrorists - despite their protests that: "They never told them to bomb anyone!"


    I never heard of taqqiya as a muslim until some right-winger on youtube accused me of it because I said I supported attacks on military & govt. targets but not civilians and he said I was lying about my beliefs  Roll Eyes
  • Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
     Reply #81 - July 23, 2011, 03:10 PM

    True, but so long as we are being balanced, fair and devoid of double standards and hate then we are acting responsibly.

    When ppl like Ali Sina say things like "A good Muslim is not a good human being",  or Robert Spencer, Gert Wilders and such people promote the idea that "Taqiyya" is a widely known and practiced - let alone - "key" - element of Islam - then they are being irresponsible and handing paranoid psychos like this guy all the excuse they need - after all they are sub-human lying vermin and getting rid of them is a service to humanity.

    These people are massively responsible for handing such crackpots all the excuses they need.


    I don't disagree with you on how the rhetoric of those who accept these claims as the only authentic form of Islam influence an atmospherics in which the far-right can thrive.

    My contention is that their responsibility 'for handing such crackpots all the excuses they need' is a second hand one. The first hand responsibility is from those who propagate these ideas and interpretations of Islam from inside Islam, and Islamic Identity Politics in the primary instance.

    The second hand re-packagers of it simply pick up the baton and run with it. And then transmit that, with distortions, to the far-right.

    Without addressing the 'first-hand' opinion, without even recognising it in the first place, its basically pruning the ugly thorns, not the roots of the plant.

    Here is the thing - alot of those who criticise the second-hand peddlers of Islamic essentialising, are themselves proponents of Islamic essentialising - only they are Muslim. The Islamists, those affiliated with Jamat-e-Islami, Mawdudi disciples, Ikhwanists, this list goes on and on and on. And in an even further complicating twist, some of those on the Left, actually go along with this too.

    This is complex. I know alot of people who won't speak out, because of this. I can see where they are coming from. I understand it. I see the dangers of speaking out.

    I can see why many rush to silence, or deny these interplays, out of defensiveness, and out of fear of the far right-wing malevolence.

    After years of wrestling with this, I don't think there should be silence. I think that, ultimately staying silent will make things much, much worse.

    But it is something that everyone here needs to introspect on, because its a very important and incendiary issue, and you can only speak with moral force and clarity, if you have thought about it.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
     Reply #82 - July 23, 2011, 03:14 PM

    I don't get what you mean


    What I'm getting at is that extreme positions are sexier than nuanced ones, in that they provide little shortcuts; any resulting demonologies are usually easy to summarise, and thus have a certain appeal to people prone to essentialising.

    My question, thus reworded, might be: how might one become visible enough to stop the far right from stealing one's clothes as it chooses? It may be a naive hope, but I don't see why they should claim a monopoly on Islamic criticism.
  • Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
     Reply #83 - July 23, 2011, 03:21 PM

    I don't disagree with you on how the rhetoric of those who accept these claims as the only authentic form of Islam influence an atmospherics in which the far-right can thrive.

    My contention is that their responsibility 'for handing such crackpots all the excuses they need' is a second hand one. The first hand responsibility is from those who propagate these ideas and interpretations of Islam from inside Islam, and Islamic Identity Politics in the primary instance.

    The second hand re-packagers of it simply pick up the baton and run with it. And then transmit that, with distortions, to the far-right.

    Without addressing the 'first-hand' opinion, without even recognising it in the first place, its basically pruning the ugly thorns, not the roots of the plant.

    Here is the thing - alot of those who criticise the second-hand peddlers of Islamic essentialising, are themselves proponents of Islamic essentialising - only they are Muslim. The Islamists, those affiliated with Jamat-e-Islami, Mawdudi disciples, Ikhwanists, this list goes on and on and on. And in an even further complicating twist, some of those on the Left, actually go along with this too.

    This is complex. I know alot of people who won't speak out, because of this. I can see where they are coming from. I understand it. I see the dangers of speaking out.

    I can see why many rush to silence, or deny these interplays, out of defensiveness, and out of fear of the far right-wing malevolence.

    After years of wrestling with this, I don't think there should be silence. I think that, ultimately staying silent will make things much, much worse.

    But it is something that everyone here needs to introspect on, because its a very important and incendiary issue, and you can only speak with moral force and clarity, if you have thought about it.




    Billy, it's quite simple. If someone is being dishonest (spreading the idea that Taqiyya means simply lying to non-Muslims to further Islam and that Muslims practice it widely) or dehumanise Muslims (a good Muslim is not human) - they share the responsibility of the crimes people commit who believe them.

    As someone who criticises Islam, I know I have a responsibility to be fair, accurate and balanced.

    Do you have a problem with the above? Yes or no?
  • Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
     Reply #84 - July 23, 2011, 03:58 PM

    Yeah, clearly he has nothing against Muslims and it in no way contributed to his motives - move along everyone, nothing to see here. Roll Eyes

    Oh come on Hassan, please don't try the sarcastic strawman on me.

    He may well have had something against Muslims and this may well have contributed to his motives (the key word being "contributed", suggesting that there were many other factors too).

    But I still wouldn't describe this as an "anti-Muslim" attack.

    If a nutter from Britain bombed 10 Downing Street and a Labour Party summer camp on the Isle Of White, then I'd describe it as an anti-establishment or anti-Labour party attack (and yeh sure, anti-Muslim may have contributed to their actions).

    However, if a nutter from Britain bombed a Mosque and a densely populated Muslim area like Tower Hamlets then this really would be an "anti-Muslim" attack.

    I just don't want the "Muslim" and "Islam" aspect of this crime to be blown out of proportion because it will only fuel the other side of the extremist spectrum.  Like you said it's very important to be accurate.

    Which Muslim organisations?

    MCB (from their tweets).

    .
  • Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
     Reply #85 - July 23, 2011, 04:03 PM

    Billy, it's quite simple. If someone is being dishonest (spreading the idea that Taqiyya means simply lying to non-Muslims to further Islam and that Muslims practice it widely) or dehumanise Muslims (a good Muslim is not human) - they share the responsibility of the crimes people commit who believe them.

    I don't care what we call it, whether we call it "Taqiyya" or whatever, but it's certainly true that many Muslim spokesmen engage in double speak where they say one thing infront of the infidel audience and quite another infront of their fellow Muslims.

    When Zakir Naik is on Pakistan's Geo TV and says quite clearly that the punishment for Muslims who leave Islam and propagate their new religion is death... but when he's debating infront of the Oxford Union he says that "death isn't the standard punishment for those who leave Islam"... then what would you call that?

    I don't care about the word "Taqiyya".  I don't care what word we use to describe this double speak, but it certainly exists.  I've seen it and hear it with my own eyes all the time.

    .
  • Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
     Reply #86 - July 23, 2011, 04:15 PM

    He was active on a Nordic Neo-Nazi website with 22000 members (!). 

    "Beauty is truth, truth beauty," - that is all
            Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

    - John Keats
  • Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
     Reply #87 - July 23, 2011, 04:16 PM

    I don't care what we call it, whether we call it "Taqiyya" or whatever, but it's certainly true that many Muslim spokesmen engage in double speak where they say one thing infront of the infidel audience and quite another infront of their fellow Muslims.

    When Zakir Naik is on Pakistan's Geo TV and says quite clearly that the punishment for Muslims who leave Islam and propagate their new religion is death... but when he's debating infront of the Oxford Union he says that "death isn't the standard punishment for those who leave Islam"... then what would you call that?

    I don't care about the word "Taqiyya".  I don't care what word we use to describe this double speak, but it certainly exists.  I've seen it and hear it with my own eyes all the time.


    I often find something quite similar.
    I often receive messages/comments from muslims who agree with me that the scientific miracle claims are false, but its literally impossible to get these people to even hint that this fact to the muslims who proposed it originally.

    On a number of occasions I have directly given a link to the video I am responding to and asked upto several times before receiving a direct 'no I won't do that!' response from them.
    Its incredibly likely that this reaction is because they find that the ends justifies the means, as in, its ok for a muslim to lie about miracle claims because atleast its bringing people to Islam..
  • Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
     Reply #88 - July 23, 2011, 04:17 PM

    But I still wouldn't describe this as an "anti-Muslim" attack.


    Nor would I and I didn't. That was your strawman.

    The fact that his anti-Muslim/Islam/immigrant views contributed to his actions is, however, obvious.
  • Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
     Reply #89 - July 23, 2011, 04:18 PM

    True. and maybe he had an assistant :(

    Religion is organized superstition
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