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 Topic: Is having children Immoral

 (Read 6420 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Is having children Immoral
     OP - August 04, 2011, 08:40 PM
    So this all started yesterday, I was in a pub drinking Cider with friends discussing life. One person in our discussion who I didn't know terribly well said that in his view life is essentially about suffering. Life is nothing more than pain and suffering. As such what right do we have to bring children into such a world against their will. Is it therefore immoral to bring children into this world of suffering, especially since they have had no say over their existence.

    Initially I just laughed when I heard that but then I really started to think about it and the more I think about it the sadder I feel. I have children who I love with all my heart and not a day goes by without me thinking about them. I think about their lives, their future. What if someone hurts them, what if they suffer pain and agony? What if they don't succeed in life? What if they are bullied and beaten up? What if they are abused and insulted? What have I done.

    What if I'm not able to give them a good life? What if like me they go through hardships they can't bear. Was it fair of me to bring them into this rotten world? Was I being self-serving? I don't know the answer but I do feel sad and these thoughts are unbearable.

    Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
  • Re: Is having children Immoral
     Reply #1 - August 04, 2011, 08:47 PM
    No.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Is having children Immoral
     Reply #2 - August 04, 2011, 08:49 PM
    Sometimes.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Is having children Immoral
     Reply #3 - August 04, 2011, 08:59 PM
    Quote
    .....Life is nothing more than pain and suffering.

    Is your life so miserable?

    Quote
    As such what right do we have to bring children into such a world against their will.

    IMO, yes, you have that right, like all generations before you. The mere fact that it is now possible to prevent children does not deny you that right.
    Quote
    Is it therefore immoral to bring children into this world of suffering, especially since they have had no say over their existence.

    I think it is not immoral per se, but you are the one to decide, and then this decision is only applying to you.

    Quote
    Initially I just laughed when I heard that but then I really started to think about it and the more I think about it the sadder I feel. I have children who I love with all my heart and not a day goes by without me thinking about them. I think about their lives, their future. What if someone hurts them, what if they suffer pain and agony? What if they don't succeed in life? What if they are bullied and beaten up? What if they are abused and insulted? What have I done.

    By having children you have both the right and the plight to bring them up as well as you can, and the vast majority of parents are good enough. You are not responsible for the outcome.

    Quote
    What if I'm not able to give them a good life? What if like me they go through hardships they can't bear. Was it fair of me to bring them into this rotten world? Was I being self-serving? I don't know the answer but I do feel sad and these thoughts are unbearable.


    You had your hardships in life, like me and most of us. You could bear them, and they can as well. Maybe you were self-serving, like almost all humans, and your children will be self-serving. Nothing wrong with that. You could be satisfied by the fact that you are just a human being. There's no god, so you will have to cope yourself, and you can. Don't worry.

    Just my 2 pence. Smiley
    Religion is organized superstition
  • Re: Is having children Immoral
     Reply #4 - August 04, 2011, 09:01 PM
    .
  • Re: Is having children Immoral
     Reply #5 - August 04, 2011, 09:09 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on August 04, 2011, 08:47 PM
    No.


    I think this thread (and Pakman) would benefit hugely if you elaborated
    Hi
  • Re: Is having children Immoral
     Reply #6 - August 04, 2011, 09:10 PM
    Thanks Zaiba, my problem is I don't really care what life throws at me it's just my loved ones I worry about. I can't bear the thought of them suffering.
    Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
  • Re: Is having children Immoral
     Reply #7 - August 04, 2011, 09:12 PM
    It's an extremely nuanced question. All people suffer at least a little, but there are still many who live happy and fulfilling lives!
    I'd say it's only questionable when you are certain that your children would lead terrible lives, for whatever reason. Then again, there were many famous and influential people who lived difficult and unhappy lives, but made many others happier by their contributions to society. At the end of the day, it's not something you can calculate.

    If you want them and think that they'll do alright, then go ahead and have 'em.
    Have you heard the good news? There is no God!
  • Re: Is having children Immoral
     Reply #8 - August 04, 2011, 09:12 PM
    .
  • Re: Is having children Immoral
     Reply #9 - August 04, 2011, 09:45 PM
    It's not immoral, but as someone with 4 kids who are all going through different sorts of hardships and pain in many ways and their road has only just begun - I do wonder - and of course I feel everything they go through x100 :(
  • Re: Is having children Immoral
     Reply #10 - August 04, 2011, 09:50 PM
    Hassan  far away hug  far away hug  far away hug
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Is having children Immoral
     Reply #11 - August 04, 2011, 09:53 PM
     far away hug far away hug far away hug
  • Re: Is having children Immoral
     Reply #12 - August 04, 2011, 09:59 PM
    What if instead of all that, a child fills your world with joys you didn't know you could feel? What if new life gives you new life? What if everything you take for granted, everything that is stale, dull, old, everything you've become numb and complacent about suddenly becomes as new, relived, seen with new eyes, young eyes, loving eyes? What if all your worries were for nothing and all the sacrifices you feared to make turn out not to be sacrifices at all, but a privilege, a blessing, an honour? What if, when your baby is in your arms, you realise how easy it is to love a complete stranger? What if a mere smile shines so brightly you cannot turn your face away? What if you're always late for work because you can't resist staying for one extra kiss or cuddle? What if your child grows up healthy, happy, bright, beautiful - an angel who humbles you, yet makes you stronger, better, heroic, immortal? What if your child makes you want to be a better person and gives you all the inspiration and motivation you need to become one? What if you have no choice but to be rare and special and loved unconditionally? What if your whole universe is realigned? What if you become the center of someone else's?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Is having children Immoral
     Reply #13 - August 04, 2011, 10:04 PM
    as for the op - i wonder if the answer to this question let's say was yes then would it in some sense not naturally follow that letting humankind exist is immoral? (i might be going off on a tangent here!) humans don't have it easy that's for sure, what with all the emotions and then expectations we have - but then imagine we didn't exist - what a dull place this earth, this solar system and perhaps even this universe would be? it is humans after all who are slowly unlocking the mysteries of the universe and making sense of the world around us - i try to look at things that way.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Is having children Immoral
     Reply #14 - August 04, 2011, 10:04 PM
    .
  • Re: Is having children Immoral
     Reply #15 - August 04, 2011, 10:04 PM
    Thanks for reminding me of the lovely side of having children, Ishna  Afro

    (Though that joy is tempered by the pain they go through as they grow and in a world that can be very cruel.)
  • Re: Is having children Immoral
     Reply #16 - August 04, 2011, 10:05 PM
    Good post Ishina
    Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
  • Re: Is having children Immoral
     Reply #17 - August 04, 2011, 10:07 PM
    Suffering is as much a part of the world as happiness. Pleasure feels all the sweeter for pain, I think.
  • Re: Is having children Immoral
     Reply #18 - August 04, 2011, 10:07 PM
    .
  • Re: Is having children Immoral
     Reply #19 - August 04, 2011, 10:32 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on August 04, 2011, 09:59 PM
    What if instead of all that, a child fills your world with joys you didn't know you could feel? What if new life gives you new life? What if everything you take for granted, everything that is stale, dull, old, everything you've become numb and complacent about suddenly becomes as new, relived, seen with new eyes, young eyes, loving eyes? What if all your worries were for nothing and all the sacrifices you feared to make turn out not to be sacrifices at all, but a privilege, a blessing, an honour? What if, when your baby is in your arms, you realise how easy it is to love a complete stranger? What if a mere smile shines so brightly you cannot turn your face away? What if you're always late for work because you can't resist staying for one extra kiss or cuddle? What if your child grows up healthy, happy, bright, beautiful - an angel who humbles you, yet makes you stronger, better, heroic, immortal? What if your child makes you want to be a better person and gives you all the inspiration and motivation you need to become one? What if you have no choice but to be rare and special and loved unconditionally? What if your whole universe is realigned? What if you become the center of someone else's?


    Wow. And thanks

     Your kid is going to be one lucky kid. When can we start trying?
    Hi
  • Re: Is having children Immoral
     Reply #20 - August 04, 2011, 10:39 PM
    GET OVER HERE
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Is having children Immoral
     Reply #21 - August 04, 2011, 10:41 PM
     Cheesy Cheesy

    If only
    Hi
  • Re: Is having children Immoral
     Reply #22 - August 04, 2011, 10:58 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on August 04, 2011, 10:07 PM
    Suffering is as much a part of the world as happiness. Pleasure feels all the sweeter for pain, I think.


    +1
    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Is having children Immoral
     Reply #23 - August 04, 2011, 11:12 PM
    Quote from: pakman on August 04, 2011, 09:10 PM
    Thanks Zaiba, my problem is I don't really care what life throws at me it's just my loved ones I worry about. I can't bear the thought of them suffering.


    I think this statement gets to the core of the issue. If you think you can raise them to be just as strong and compassionate as your own mentality would indicate, then I certainly don't think it would be immoral. It might even be a moral imperative for you to raise kids like that.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Is having children Immoral
     Reply #24 - August 04, 2011, 11:15 PM
    I don't feel it is immoral to have children. For all the trials and tribulations in life we usually find  light and happiness too. I feel wracked with guilt about some of the things they have had to go through, but children are amazingly resilient and I believe they still have had plenty of fun too.

    I have two beautiful sons who are my absolute pride and joy and my greatest reward in life. One of them has a whole host of difficulties; he takes so much in his stride and still he manages to smile and laugh everyday. He is a constant example and inspiration to me and many others too and I am amazingly proud of him and my other son. I think they are both glad we had them, but I haven't asked them yet grin12
  • Re: Is having children Immoral
     Reply #25 - August 04, 2011, 11:18 PM
    It is moral, if we encourage and support our children to live a life with rational thinking and meaningful contribution to the society the way they want it.  They may end up reducing the suffering of others or at least have a fulfilling experience living their own lives.

    BTW muslims are increasing their population rapidly. We need to catch up Smiley
  • Re: Is having children Immoral
     Reply #26 - August 04, 2011, 11:27 PM
    Quote from: Azuremist on August 04, 2011, 11:15 PM
    I don't feel it is immoral to have children. For all the trials and tribulations in life we usually find  light and happiness too. I feel wracked with guilt about some of the things they have had to go through, but children are amazingly resilient and I believe they still have had plenty of fun too.

    I have two beautiful sons who are my absolute pride and joy and my greatest reward in life. One of them has a whole host of difficulties; he takes so much in his stride and still he manages to smile and laugh everyday. He is a constant example and inspiration to me and many others too and I am amazingly proud of him and my other son. I think they are both glad we had them, but I haven't asked them yet grin12


     Smiley
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Is having children Immoral
     Reply #27 - January 25, 2012, 07:51 PM
    .
  • Re: Is having children Immoral
     Reply #28 - January 25, 2012, 08:13 PM
    I think it is immoral to have kids if you cannot financially support them, give them a good education, and raise them well. I also consider Douggar family's choice to have 20 kids to be immoral: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/08/duggar-family-expecting-20-child-michelle-pregnant_n_1081530.html .
  • Re: Is having children Immoral
     Reply #29 - January 26, 2012, 12:40 AM
    There's a good philosophical text on this: http://www.amazon.com/Better-Never-Have-Been-Existence/dp/0199296421

    There is also a paper, I will try to find it.
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