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Theme Changer

 Topic: You are not real atheists

 (Read 15602 times)
  • 12 3 4 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • You are not real atheists
     OP - August 10, 2011, 03:04 AM

    I came across this interesting overview of a debate that took place on dawkins site. In all honesty I myself did not understand half of it but got a jist of what the debate was about. Since joining the ex-Muslims I have found that more then the majority of ex-Muslims have the same story to tell. The story has no scene setting or extensive development and the plot is contained within a single word- Science . From the start I never understood how a person could honestly call themselves atheists simply because they 'found' science. Allot of these atheists claim to be rational but show no rationality at all, more like hungry dogs chewing on the bone thinking that it would subside there hunger. They swallow entire spoonfuls of data given to them on a platter by men in white coats---how then are these people rational. In fact allot of them cannot differentiate the difference between empiricism and rationality which are not one and the same but can be fused together when dealing with some issues. Where religion used god to fill in the gaps the new atheists ignores the gaps completely, often falling in. New atheism in my view is just another religion. Arguments against religion are strong and arguments against a god that appears to be dressed slavishly by us humans and then placed on a throne is also strong "the god that man created in his own image". But the concept of God is far more complex, and the question of proof unveils the stupidity of the new atheist. Proof is raw data, reason is what makes sense of it all. Rationality does not always give as perceivable proof but then neither does physics/met-physics . I am neither rational or irrational I simply am amongst the post modern schizoid insanity. Enough rambling.... link of article attached. 


    http://urbanphilosophy.net/philosophy/the-folly-of-the-new-atheist/

    "A belief in hell and the knowledge that every ambition is doomed to frustration at the hands of a skeleton have never prevented the majority of human beings from behaving as though death were no more than an unfounded rumour."
    Aldous Huxley
  • Re: You are not real atheists
     Reply #1 - August 10, 2011, 03:20 AM

    This is because you joined the forums after the great ghost MaB left it. If you had read his posts, then you would have no doubt that leaving religion has nothing to do with science and everything to do with pussy. Let me find the link to the great thread for you.

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: You are not real atheists
     Reply #2 - August 10, 2011, 03:22 AM

    Here it is:
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=4065.0

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: You are not real atheists
     Reply #3 - August 10, 2011, 03:47 AM

    From the start I never understood how a person could honestly call themselves atheists simply because they 'found' science.

    Because that makes it hard to believe the rubbish they want you to believe? Unless of course, if you cherrypick parts and call the rest "allegorical".

    Quote
    Allot of these atheists claim to be rational but show no rationality at all, more like hungry dogs chewing on the bone thinking that it would subside there hunger.

    Hasty generalization, atheists need not necessarily be rational, some atheists do believe all sorts of batshit crazy stuff despite not believing in a deity. Still "a lot" claiming to be rational and having no rationality is just gross generalization.

    Quote
    They swallow entire spoonfuls of data given to them on a platter by men in white coats---how then are these people rational.

     
    And you shouldn't - you should be skeptical, verify the data for yourself - which can be easily done in most cases. And even IF someone swallows it, you can't blame them because it WORKS and science has proven itself over and over again.

    Quote
    Where religion used god to fill in the gaps the new atheists ignores the gaps completely, often falling in.

    Nope, atleast I and many I know, don't. We seek answer through SCIENCE not dogma. Filling gaps means its  essentially a dead end for seeking further knowledge.


    Quote
    New atheism in my view is just another religion.

     
    And not collecting stamp is a hobby.

    Quote
    Arguments against religion are strong and arguments against a god that appears to be dressed slavishly by us humans and then placed on a throne is also strong "the god that man created in his own image". But the concept of God is far more complex, and the question of proof unveils the stupidity of the new atheist. Proof is raw data, reason is what makes sense of it all. Rationality does not always give as perceivable proof but then neither does physics/met-physics

     
    Nice ramble, but no. Rationality, Logic etc are pragmatic - we all are at severe handicap on understanding reality without them. Without god, we just do fine. BTW saying "god is far more complex", "god works in mysterious ways" doesn't make your claim any more valid.

    Quote
    . I am neither rational or irrational I simply am amongst the post modern schizoid insanity. Enough rambling.... link of article attached. 

     
    Neither rational or irrational?  Roll Eyes
  • Re: You are not real atheists
     Reply #4 - August 10, 2011, 04:07 AM



    MountABison's posts in that thread have converted me into a chronic masturbator. Although convert may be the wrong word here...

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: You are not real atheists
     Reply #5 - August 10, 2011, 06:01 AM

    @crazyislam

    pragmatic does not mean empirically provable. Religion is also pragmatic if you take into consideration architecture, English language, history and developments in the thinking world.
    It seems that we are speaking two different languages your tunnel vision does not allow you to think liberally. Your response exemplify s my point, you are unable to understand figurative expressions and can only make sense of literal analytical points, I don't blame you for this. The idea that man can understand the world from a god eye view (modern science) is a product of capitalism. Where knowledge has no relation to us and is exteriorized to the point that it is another commodity to be exchanged; it is no longer a means-in-itself. This is apparent in the modern use of language where people talk in bite -size data. Your response is a machine response (although you have no clue what 'rationality' in the strict philosophical sense is). But the truth is we can never have an objective account of anything.


    The greatest rationalist that contributed to EVERYTHING Immanuel Kant wrote extensively on the view that we cannot go beyond our understanding but that this does not mean there is nothing beyond our understanding. Not all things things we claim to know are Physical with capital P. Causation and gravity are serious questions and we consider them as 'real' but they are not physical, I cannot get gravity and show it to you.

    "A belief in hell and the knowledge that every ambition is doomed to frustration at the hands of a skeleton have never prevented the majority of human beings from behaving as though death were no more than an unfounded rumour."
    Aldous Huxley
  • Re: You are not real atheists
     Reply #6 - August 10, 2011, 06:11 AM

    @crazyislam

    pragmatic does not mean empirically provable. Religion is also pragmatic if you take into consideration architecture, English language, history and developments in the thinking world.

    Which has nothing to do with dogma that it's associated with. Shakespere might have contributed to the language too, does that make Romeo and Juliet true? By pragmatic I obviously mean the method how science works. And I clearly stated that you shouldn't take things on faith.
    Quote
    It seems that we are speaking two different languages your tunnel vision does not allow you to think liberally. Your response exemplify s my point, you are unable to understand figurative expressions and can only make sense of literal analytical points, I don't blame you for this.

    Aww, you're way too generous. Thanks.

    Quote
    The idea that man can understand the world from a god eye view (modern science) is a product of capitalism.

     
    LOLWUT? Attacking your own strawman here, are we? Where does modern science say that? Science actually accepts that we might always be wrong and we just have best possible explaination

    Quote
    Where knowledge has no relation to us and is exteriorized to the point that it is another commodity to be exchanged; it is no longer a means-in-itself. This is apparent in the modern use of language where people talk in bite -size data. Your response is a machine response (although you have no clue what 'rationality' in the strict philosophical sense is).


    Yeah more assertions and strawman obviously proves that you're right.
  • Re: You are not real atheists
     Reply #7 - August 10, 2011, 06:18 AM

    @crazyislam

    "Which has nothing to do with dogma that it's associated with" yes it does. Puritanism vs Catholicism was pragmatic in the uprising against the monarch. Everything is pragmatic. BTW Not once have I mentioned 'truth'. Truth is a judgement and that is your biggest problem your all so tyrannical; quick to snap a 'truth' at someone . There are no truths only narratives. You have raw data and that is that everything that comes after (evolution theory)  is a narrative just as religion is a narrative. Post-modernism get with the program bitch  Baseball bat

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZK7gg8gbMxE&feature=related

    "A belief in hell and the knowledge that every ambition is doomed to frustration at the hands of a skeleton have never prevented the majority of human beings from behaving as though death were no more than an unfounded rumour."
    Aldous Huxley
  • Re: You are not real atheists
     Reply #8 - August 10, 2011, 06:40 AM

    @crazyislam

    "Which has nothing to do with dogma that it's associated with" yes it does. Puritanism vs Catholicism was pragmatic in the uprising against the monarch. Everything is pragmatic.

    Regarding your first point, I can't bother to go on debating as it's besides my point. I did say that you shouldn't take things on faith.

    Quote
    BTW Not once have I mentioned 'truth'. Truth is a judgement and that is your biggest problem your all so tyrannical; quick to snap a 'truth' at someone.  There are no truths only narratives.


    More hasty generalizations. And tyrannical? I never mentioned you claimed anything. Oh are we gonna play semantics now? No thanks, not least bit interested.


    You asserted:
    Quote
    The idea that man can understand the world from a god eye view (modern science) is a product of capitalism.

     

    which is obviously bollocks. Does science say that?


    Quote
    You have raw data and that is that everything that comes after (evolution theory)  is a narrative just as religion is a narrative. Post-modernism get with the program bitch  Baseball bat

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZK7gg8gbMxE&feature=related


    Err, I missed your point there? And what if religion contradicts raw data? Are you saying it doesn't make any scientific claims or is scientifically contradictory? If you're saying it's all allegorical, or you're a deist, that's fine by my. But stop making assertions and generalizations which are just absurd.
  • Re: You are not real atheists
     Reply #9 - August 10, 2011, 06:54 AM

    This is because you joined the forums after the great ghost MaB left it. If you had read his posts, then you would have no doubt that leaving religion has nothing to do with science and everything to do with pussy. Let me find the link to the great thread for you.


    It's true.. Pussy makes the world go round and round.

    ALM - such a wise man.  yes

    Rather be forgotten than remembered for giving in.
  • Re: You are not real atheists
     Reply #10 - August 10, 2011, 07:10 AM

    @crazyislam

    lol like talking to a dogmatic Muslim
    I look at science from a post modern point of view and it seems that its objectivity has been hyped up

    "A belief in hell and the knowledge that every ambition is doomed to frustration at the hands of a skeleton have never prevented the majority of human beings from behaving as though death were no more than an unfounded rumour."
    Aldous Huxley
  • Re: You are not real atheists
     Reply #11 - August 10, 2011, 07:21 AM

    You use lots of big words. You must be a very enlightened man.

  • Re: You are not real atheists
     Reply #12 - August 10, 2011, 07:21 AM

    BTW ignore the brash topic title-its simply to draw attention--

    "A belief in hell and the knowledge that every ambition is doomed to frustration at the hands of a skeleton have never prevented the majority of human beings from behaving as though death were no more than an unfounded rumour."
    Aldous Huxley
  • Re: You are not real atheists
     Reply #13 - August 10, 2011, 07:22 AM

    You use lots of big words. You must be a very enlightened man.

    You use lots of big words. You must be a very enlightened man.


    No just very stupid, but likes his stupidity because he lives in a very stupid world  
    I don't claim to know anything just some-things I know and blah blah blah Crystal Ball

    "A belief in hell and the knowledge that every ambition is doomed to frustration at the hands of a skeleton have never prevented the majority of human beings from behaving as though death were no more than an unfounded rumour."
    Aldous Huxley
  • Re: You are not real atheists
     Reply #14 - August 10, 2011, 07:26 AM

    No, I was referring to you. And it was a sarcastic comment. Smiley

  • Re: You are not real atheists
     Reply #15 - August 10, 2011, 08:07 AM

    Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: You are not real atheists
     Reply #16 - August 10, 2011, 08:18 AM

    Yeah, you can't be hungry for tangible knowledge in this world without some soft twat accusing you of "blindly swallowing science"

    You can't be awestruck and energised by the universe, or intrigued and excited by the discoveries in physics, or have an amateur interest in stargazing, or be in love with the natural world and desperate to uncover it's secrets, without some pedestrian dime-a-dozen 'intellectual' who Googled a bit of philosophy telling you you're irrational.

    We should actually make science a proper religion just to give them something real to shit themselves about.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: You are not real atheists
     Reply #17 - August 10, 2011, 08:27 AM

    @crazyislam

    lol like talking to a dogmatic Muslim
    I look at science from a post modern point of view and it seems that its objectivity has been hyped up by

    Err what?  Roll Eyes

    Yeah, you can't be hungry for tangible knowledge in this world without some soft twat accusing you of "blindly swallowing science"

    You can't be awestruck and energised by the universe, or intrigued and excited by the discoveries in physics, or have an amateur interest in stargazing, or be in love with the natural world and desperate to uncover it's secrets, without some pedestrian dime-a-dozen 'intellectual' who Googled a bit of philosophy telling you you're irrational.




    POTW Afro
  • Re: You are not real atheists
     Reply #18 - August 10, 2011, 08:29 AM

    Err what?  Roll Eyes

    Your tunnel vision does not allow you to be hyped up by.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: You are not real atheists
     Reply #19 - August 10, 2011, 08:58 AM

    No, I was referring to you. And it was a sarcastic comment. Smiley


    I know I was talking about myself in 3rd person Cheesy

    "A belief in hell and the knowledge that every ambition is doomed to frustration at the hands of a skeleton have never prevented the majority of human beings from behaving as though death were no more than an unfounded rumour."
    Aldous Huxley
  • Re: You are not real atheists
     Reply #20 - August 10, 2011, 09:01 AM

    I know I was talking about myself in second person Cheesy

    Third*

    I = 1st person
    You = 2nd person
    He = 3rd person

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: You are not real atheists
     Reply #21 - August 10, 2011, 09:11 AM

    Yeah, you can't be hungry for tangible knowledge in this world without some soft twat accusing you of "blindly swallowing science"



    You can't be awestruck and energised by the universe, or intrigued and excited by the discoveries in physics, or have an amateur interest in stargazing, or be in love with the natural world and desperate to uncover it's secrets, without some pedestrian dime-a-dozen 'intellectual' who Googled a bit of philosophy telling you you're irrational.

    We should actually make science a proper religion just to give them something real to shit themselves about.

     Huh?
    ummm I was talking about the people who dismiss anything that is not empirically verifiable and confuse empiricism with rationalism as if they where not two completely different schools of thought. I am just saying that logical positivism sucks , you cant go around calling everyone who lives there life according to some fantasy, liars.

    No. I am just questioning presuppositions of knowledge, the process of acquisition of knowledge and how e can label something as purely 'objective' for example take global warming. Some of it may be true it but has evolved into a narrative corrupted by political power games.  science itself is not flawless. We can improve on our current model of science also once technology such as computers is involved, science faces a paradigm shift where it is no longer from the human point of view, its no longer aligned to us humans. This can be viewed as a positive thing but it can also be viewed as science taking a wrong turn

    "A belief in hell and the knowledge that every ambition is doomed to frustration at the hands of a skeleton have never prevented the majority of human beings from behaving as though death were no more than an unfounded rumour."
    Aldous Huxley
  • Re: You are not real atheists
     Reply #22 - August 10, 2011, 09:12 AM

    Third*

    I = 1st person
    You = 2nd person
    He = 3rd person



     mysmilie_977 have stayed awake all night......brain shutting down know lol

    "A belief in hell and the knowledge that every ambition is doomed to frustration at the hands of a skeleton have never prevented the majority of human beings from behaving as though death were no more than an unfounded rumour."
    Aldous Huxley
  • Re: You are not real atheists
     Reply #23 - August 10, 2011, 09:42 AM

    I studied science, Geology which involves how the planet was formed etc... the evolution, fossils evidence  in palaeontology  modules.  But the science never convinced me to leave Islam, I never thought there was this great contradiction between religion and science, I didn’t believe in taking everything in the Quran literally like scholars do, I thought Allah just facilitate conditions for things to form and let it be.. take its course.  Who are we to think Allah’s day is the same as an Earth day? I mean the day length differ from one planet to plant, from one galaxy to another galaxy.. so how about the whole universe?? So to me it wasn’t unlikely that Allah created the world in a week. His week may be millions of years as far as we know??  And so I logically explained any scientific theory that contradicted with religion, so that was no issue for me lol
    Anyway, science was not the catalyst in my case

    Teach us to care and not to care / Teach us to sit still.
    What do we live for; if it is not to make life less difficult to each other
    You are the music while the music lasts.
    T.S.Eliot
  • Re: You are not real atheists
     Reply #24 - August 10, 2011, 10:19 AM

    Fara7 Thank you for you account. I see that your signature is a quote from Elliot and If I  remember correctly he was (in his later life) a strong Christian. I hesitate when criticising religion in general when I read the likes of Elliot. Allot of atheists I have met simply dismiss art and literature on the basis that its not 'real' they form a conception of reality based on positivist approaches to science. I watched a documentary on BBC about reality. Scientist and physic/sions where interviewed and the answers they gave where not different from the sort of stuff you would find in literature, stuff atheists dismiss as fantasy; The difference being, the writer speaks a human language. In response to OP I stated that knowledge has become exterior to us like a commodity that we exchange. I think this is true, someone giving me an account of evolution has no real affect whereas Hamlet does because Hamlet is 'human'.  With modern science we have killed of the 'individual' and deluded are self with self-denial where we dismiss things that affect us in favour of detached apathetic information such as the 'gene point of view' (dawkins)

    What gets at me is the new atheists question
    "prove it" its no different from the theists saying "disprove it"

    "A belief in hell and the knowledge that every ambition is doomed to frustration at the hands of a skeleton have never prevented the majority of human beings from behaving as though death were no more than an unfounded rumour."
    Aldous Huxley
  • Re: You are not real atheists
     Reply #25 - August 10, 2011, 10:28 AM




    Faith and Reason
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31rDPh_gqsg&feature=relmfu

    "A belief in hell and the knowledge that every ambition is doomed to frustration at the hands of a skeleton have never prevented the majority of human beings from behaving as though death were no more than an unfounded rumour."
    Aldous Huxley
  • Re: You are not real atheists
     Reply #26 - August 10, 2011, 10:30 AM

    What gets at me is the new atheists question
    "prove it" its no different from the theists saying "disprove it"

    Saying what?

    Saying one is in an intimate relationship with the grand architect of the universe and he's saying that gays should die? Or young lovers should be flogged 100 times? Or that women are a tilth and rape isnt possible between husband and wife?

    Yes, indeed: prove it.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: You are not real atheists
     Reply #27 - August 10, 2011, 10:34 AM

    Huh?
    ummm I was talking about the people who dismiss anything that is not empirically verifiable and confuse empiricism with rationalism as if they where not two completely different schools of thought.

    You mean in a similar way to you conflating atheism with the sciences?

    science itself is not flawless

    Show me one credible scientist who has said science is perfect.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: You are not real atheists
     Reply #28 - August 10, 2011, 10:37 AM

    Just about the Christianity of  Eliot, I actually don’t know a huge amount about him, but I always loved the these two verses  in my signature, especially the one asking to teach us not to care, as I always suffered from caring too much during my younger years.

    Anyway, I do not hate or dislike believers, whether, Christians, Jews, Buddhist or whatever, and just because they were believer that does not take away from their literate or scientific achievements and discoveries.




    Teach us to care and not to care / Teach us to sit still.
    What do we live for; if it is not to make life less difficult to each other
    You are the music while the music lasts.
    T.S.Eliot
  • Re: You are not real atheists
     Reply #29 - August 10, 2011, 10:44 AM

    You mean in a similar way to you conflating atheism with the sciences?
    Show me one credible scientist who has said science is perfect.


    I made it very clear that I was talking about the ex-Muslims that I have met and 'new atheism'
    Old atheist - like Nietzsche are impossible to criticise. He is another level   


    as for science and it flaws, I am talking about science as a flaw in-itself hence its inability to produce anything that is without a flaw

    "A belief in hell and the knowledge that every ambition is doomed to frustration at the hands of a skeleton have never prevented the majority of human beings from behaving as though death were no more than an unfounded rumour."
    Aldous Huxley
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