What are your views on protecting ethnicity?

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- cosmicdancer
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What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
OP - August 13, 2011, 04:46 PM

I was asked this question on one of my videos:

bloodsteam 2 weeks ago
What are your views on protecting ethnicity?

I ask because I often feel that much anti-islamic, or anti-marxistic or anti-something, seems to center around protecting one's culture, people... ethnicity.

Do you care greatly, or even at all, or somewhere in between about your ethnicity/culture etc?

This question really goes out to anyone who reads it really.

This was my reply:

CEMBadmins 2 weeks ago
@bloodsteam - My view of ethnicity is the same as my view of tall and short people - what matters is what's in the heart, not skin colour or racial features we have. We are one Human Race with responsibility towards each other and the planet.

I'd be very interested to hear how others would answer the question.
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Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
Reply #1 - August 13, 2011, 04:49 PM

Well I woud have said .. it's all about the survival of the fittest man!!

I'm kidding, of course, I would've said something along those lines too but probably long winded with a lot of off topic talk, and maybe some rhetorical questions too. I'll try and form my answer now actually ... give me a min.. (or an hour)
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Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
Reply #2 - August 13, 2011, 05:00 PM

Well, Hass, I think it's okay to deliver intelligent criticism of the aspects of a particular culture held by people of X ethnicity (or religion), but one must tread very, very carefully-- cause it's a real fine line between that and racism. For example, when right-wing racists use completely legit criticism of some negative aspects of Black culture from people like Bill Cosby. Which is why I generally think it best to leave such criticism up to those from that group, and if I hear it coming from outside the group, my radar is up and I'm gonna pay very close attention to where they're going with it-- if it's really a legit, non-bigoted criticism or just clever justification of racist/bigoted/discriminatory views or policies.

Of course religion and ethnicity, while sharing some commonalities, also have a distinct difference in that it's a different matter to criticize someone's beliefs than to criticize someone's skin color or whatever, even though care must still be paid in the former case, because, more often than not, just as in the latter, it's something someone is born into. Furthermore although I can see justification for attacking religion like any other belief system, I see no justification for attacking ethnicity as it's not a belief system, and, as you say, it would make just as much sense to attack someone for their height.

So that is my rambling only somewhat cogent response to your question. To put it in simpler terms-- those criticizing religion may be either bigots or principled people, but those criticizing ethnicity are almost always bigoted pieces of shit.

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Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
Reply #3 - August 13, 2011, 05:20 PM

Although I don't think ethnicity only manifests in outward physical characteristics, protecting culture is far more important.

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Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
Reply #4 - August 13, 2011, 05:33 PM

Quote from: Hassan on August 13, 2011, 04:46 PM
I'd be very interested to hear how others would answer the question.

I dont see what the point would be.
It exists by happenstance to begin with and is sort of along the lines of traditions:

With most traditions its a case of : My ancestors did something, therefore we unquestionably do it to.
This is very much the same concept as : My ancestors looked like this, so lets keep this look going.

Pointless; and its not as if alot of said people will even stay looking the same way forever, even when they attempt to 'preserve',
eg:
People in south America have brown skin, upper native americans had red skin...White skinned people have now lived there for centuries...
So how do the 'preserve the aryan race' groups think this will turn out, exactly?..
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Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
Reply #5 - August 13, 2011, 05:46 PM

I like: "ethnicity/culture etc" in your post Hassan.

As if they were similar things. Though often ethnicity and culture overlap, they are two distinct things - first more similar to race and over which we have no control. Everyone is born with some sort of ethnicity (ethnicities as in your case), e.g. armenian, russian, swedish etc. (I am not sure if americans - citizens of USA - are an ethnicity, but I am leaning towards "yes".)

Culture is more like religion - we are influenced by what surrounds us, by what interests us, but we are free to subscribe to parts or all of it or not. Ethnicities make the world more interesting possibly, but they often feed human tribalistic instinct and under such covers as patriotism, make people bigoted and believing that they are better than others. What good this has brought humanity so far - I don't know. I see being too protective of ethnicity as leading to some place bad. Some protection is necessary though because people are monkeys and will wipe out their smaller slightly different neighbors when presented with a chance.

But culture is different - as it is more similar to ideas - why should we not be free to think that ideas we hold are better than others and thus worth preserving?

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
Reply #6 - August 13, 2011, 05:51 PM

Quote from: Stuff on August 13, 2011, 05:20 PM
Although I don't think ethnicity only manifests in outward physical characteristics, protecting culture is far more important.

Why is protecting culture important?

While I enjoy some aspects of various cultures - things like the different types of food, clothing, music, art, literature etc... that doesn't mean we should attempt to prevent change within those cultures. In fact many of the things we treasure about different cultures evolved over time and through a process of change, interaction and adaptation. To try to stop that process is to stop cultures - and humans - evolving and finding new things to treasure.

Having said that I think there are values which we as a whole (Human Race) develop that are important to protect, things like Human Rights, Equality, certain freedoms and liberties and so on... but even though some of these values may well be more prevalent in some cultures and more absent in others, for whatever reason - they are not the sole preserve of one particular culture - nor do they solely belong to them.
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Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
Reply #7 - August 13, 2011, 05:54 PM

Quote from: Alex Lam Meem on August 13, 2011, 05:46 PM
I like: "ethnicity/culture etc" in your post Hassan.

lol... yes, though it was the person who asked me the question who conflated them.
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Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
Reply #8 - August 13, 2011, 05:55 PM

Ethnicity is just a bunch of genes.

The more jumbled up they are the better.

If you don't jumble them up you end up with six fingers (and an ossified culture) in due course.
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Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
Reply #9 - August 13, 2011, 05:57 PM

Yes I can see there are two separate issues here.

1. Ethnicity.

2. Culture.

Sorry if they are getting mixed up - they shouldn't really.
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Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
Reply #10 - August 13, 2011, 06:00 PM

Quote from: Stuff on August 13, 2011, 05:20 PM
Although I don't think ethnicity only manifests in outward physical characteristics, protecting culture is far more important.

Also what do you mean: "I don't think ethnicity only manifests in outward physical characteristics"?

Do you mean you think ethnicity/race manifests itself in certain behavioural characteristics?

Can you give some examples?

For example do you think - as one UK 1950s school text book claimed - black people more "musical", Arabs more fatalistic, and Europeans/Americans more dynamic and innovative - as a consequence of their ethnicity/race?
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Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
Reply #11 - August 13, 2011, 06:10 PM

^ One has to love 1950s Sadly this recent history left a legacy that is too apparent even on this forum.

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Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
Reply #12 - August 13, 2011, 06:11 PM

Quote from: Hassan on August 13, 2011, 06:00 PM
black people more "musical"
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Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
Reply #13 - August 13, 2011, 06:16 PM

Quote from: Hassan on August 13, 2011, 06:00 PM
For example do you think - as one UK 1950s school text book claimed - black people more "musical", Arabs more fatalistic, and Europeans/Americans more dynamic and innovative - as a consequence of their ethnicity/race?

Well, that's where culture and race/ethnicity overlap again. Ethnicities do possess certain cultural characteristics, but I think that's more due to environmental conditions than genetics. Arabs have a fatalistic culture cause Islam is a fatalistic religion forged in harsh conditions, Black folks have made important contributions to the music world due to specific conditions that arose in post-slavery Black society in the United States (it's not like Africans were particularly noted for musical ability prior to the contributions of African-Americans starting in the early 20th century), and as for Europeans/Americans being more dynamic and innovative, if anyone here hasn't yet read Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond, I highly recommend giving it a read.

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Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
Reply #14 - August 13, 2011, 06:23 PM

Quote from: Raccoon Rapist on August 13, 2011, 06:16 PM
but I think that's more due to environmental conditions than genetics.

So you think that - at least to some small degree - genes/race carries with it a greater or lesser musicality, fatalism, dynamism and ability to be innovative?
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Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
Reply #15 - August 13, 2011, 06:33 PM

There may be, but from what I know, the evidence is stronger for it being due to environmental conditions than genetics. Again, just to take the example of Black folk being more "musical", if it were genetic it seems likely this reputation would have developed long ago in Sub-Saharan Africa rather than specifically amongst the post-slavery Black African diaspora in the United States beginning in the early 20th century. I will not dismiss out of hand any evidence there may be for genetic causes, particularly for some things, (there is some mounting evidence, for example, that rates of substance abuse among certain ethnic groups may be linked to genetic predisposition), but right now the evidence seems much stronger in favor of environmental conditions for most cultural attributes of this or that ethnicity, and public policy-wise it's best to focus on the environmental factors anyways since genetic factors are difficult to control through humane means.

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Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
Reply #16 - August 13, 2011, 06:58 PM

Fuck. Yeah you may be more prone to become an alcoholic if none of your ancestors drank alcohol versus all of your ancestors drinking vodka 3 times a week. Does that also extend that one ethnicity is more likely to be thieves (just to take an example of gypsies that does not seem to have developed only in 20th century)? Why don't you just admit that you are racist? This shit is fucked up. Disgusting.

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Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
Reply #17 - August 13, 2011, 07:02 PM

Quote from: Alex Lam Meem on August 13, 2011, 06:58 PM
Does that also extend that one ethnicity is more likely to be thieves

Did I claim it did?

Quote
Why don't you just admit that you are racist? This shit is fucked up. Disgusting.

Why don't you just admit you're a dumb fuckin troll? Fuck you, shitbag. I've organized alongside of Black Workers For Justice to fight systemic racism, I work alongside former Black Panthers as comrades, I've been beat up by the cops for trying to physically shut down a meeting of neo-Nazis-- what the fuck have you done besides tap away at your keyboard you cocksuckin sack of shit?

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Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
Reply #18 - August 13, 2011, 07:06 PM

Quote from: Raccoon Rapist on August 13, 2011, 06:33 PM
There may be, but from what I know, the evidence is stronger for it being due to environmental conditions than genetics. Again, just to take the example of Black folk being more "musical", if it were genetic it seems likely this reputation would have developed long ago in Sub-Saharan Africa rather than specifically amongst the post-slavery Black African diaspora in the United States beginning in the early 20th century. I will not dismiss out of hand any evidence there may be for genetic causes, particularly for some things, (there is some mounting evidence, for example, that rates of substance abuse among certain ethnic groups may be linked to genetic predisposition), but right now the evidence seems much stronger in favor of environmental conditions for most cultural attributes of this or that ethnicity, and public policy-wise it's best to focus on the environmental factors anyways since genetic factors are difficult to control through humane means.

I'm surprised that you think there maybe even a small propensity toward/against fatalism, musicality and ability to innovate carried within genes/race. I have always believed such things are the result of environment/religion/culture/upbringing etc... It would be interesting to see if there is any modern research on the subject.
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Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
Reply #19 - August 13, 2011, 07:07 PM

I didn't say that Hassan-- what I'm saying is I wouldn't dismiss the evidence out of hand. I won't dismiss evidence for God's existence out of hand either, but in both cases the evidence, such as it exists, is not convincing.

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Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
Reply #20 - August 13, 2011, 07:11 PM

Quote from: Raccoon Rapist on August 13, 2011, 07:02 PM
Did I claim it did?

Why don't you just admit you're a dumb fuckin troll? Fuck you, shitbag. I've organized alongside of Black Workers For Justice to fight systemic racism, I work alongside former Black Panthers as comrades, I've been beat up by the cops for trying to physically shut down a meeting of neo-Nazis-- what the fuck have you done besides tap away at your keyboard you cocksuckin sack of shit?

LOL @ emotions. I hope it's genetic.

I guess I'll make an exception to my policy of not responding to people with no class due to your political inclinations:

1. Why bring it up then?

2. I have not been a racist as you are. And I don't need to start the type name calling as you do.

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Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
Reply #21 - August 13, 2011, 07:15 PM

Quote from: Hassan on August 13, 2011, 07:06 PM
I'm surprised that you think there maybe even a small propensity toward/against fatalism, musicality and ability to innovate carried within genes/race.

From my very amateurish understanding of genetics and biology - I would be amazed if there wasn't.
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Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
Reply #22 - August 13, 2011, 07:22 PM

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on August 13, 2011, 07:15 PM
From my very amateurish understanding of genetics and biology - I would be amazed if there wasn't.

Its not impossible that a selection of a particular race/ethnicity could be statistically better at something due to minor evolutionary differences through their ancestral lineage (with any given talent being a happenstance result), but I don't believe there are any peer reviewed papers that have / would hold up as its more theoretical than plausible.

Resistance to diseases on the other hand...
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Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
Reply #23 - August 13, 2011, 07:25 PM

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on August 13, 2011, 07:15 PM
From my very amateurish understanding of genetics and biology - I would be amazed if there wasn't.

Do you know of any research into the subject, Prince? Is it within individuals or whole races? I would have thought that within any particular race there would be many different genes that are being passed onto individuals. But I know next to nothing on the subject so would be interested to read some proper scientific study on it.
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Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
Reply #24 - August 13, 2011, 07:27 PM

Quote from: mighty_cats on August 13, 2011, 07:22 PM
Resistance to diseases on the other hand...

Though we're not talking about things like resistance to diseases - but more abstract things like ability to make music, innovate or be dynamic/fatalistic.
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Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
Reply #25 - August 13, 2011, 07:29 PM

Quote from: Alex Lam Meem on August 13, 2011, 07:11 PM

LOL @ emotions. I hope it's genetic.

I guess I'll make an exception to my policy of not responding to people with no class due to your political inclinations:

1. Why bring it up then?

2. I have not been a racist as you are. And I don't need to start the type name calling as you do.

If you interpreted my statement that I think that the evidence is strong that most differences between ethnic groups is due primarily to differences in environmental conditions, but despite that I wouldn't dismiss out-of-hand any evidence which may point to genetic causes for certain differences (such as prevalence of substance abuse) as racism, then you are fucking touched in the head, as none of that even comes close to suggesting that I think that one ethnic group is innately better than another (or the reverse), which is what racism is. I might have been inclined to forgive your suggestion I was racist due to your mental handicap/disorder, if you hadn't been so fucking obnoxious and aggressive about it, and, to quote Joe Strummer, "if I get aggression, I give it two time back"

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Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
Reply #26 - August 13, 2011, 07:30 PM

Quote from: Hassan on August 13, 2011, 07:27 PM
Though we're not talking about things like resistance to diseases - but more abstract things like ability to make music, innovate or be dynamic/fatalistic.

I said that solely because theres little else (documented and accepted) that would separate one ethnicity from another in a somewhat 'positive way' (musically speaking etc etc).
I have scanned pubmed, but can't find anything peer reviewed with the ideas the thread has moved into, atleast not yet, but not expecting to find anything either.
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Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
Reply #27 - August 13, 2011, 07:33 PM

Quote from: Hassan on August 13, 2011, 07:25 PM
Do you know of any research into the subject, Prince? Is it within individuals or whole races? I would have thought that within any particular race there would be many different genes that are being passed onto individuals. But I know next to nothing on the subject so would be interested to read some proper scientific study on it.

I think it's very difficult to prove that there is such a genetic bias, and I think it's also pretty obvious that environmental factors are overwhelming to the point that any such bias may even be redundant, but I would think that, considering how many different aspects of ourselves any particular gene actually effects, that there would likely be some genetic make-ups more disposed to some personality traits than others.
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Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
Reply #28 - August 13, 2011, 07:33 PM

Besides isn't musical ability just personal preference?
Im not aware of many cultures that don't indulge in music of some kind, whether they have a 'talent' seems pretty subjective to me. This can also be applied to most other subjects the thread is touching on.

myself and 50 others like me have dancing ability, him and 50 others like him have dancing ability..
Particular audience in a specific place says my side doesn't, but their side consistently does... Does that really conclude anything?
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Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
Reply #29 - August 13, 2011, 07:34 PM

Quote from: Hassan on August 13, 2011, 05:51 PM
Why is protecting culture important?

While I enjoy some aspects of various cultures - things like the different types of food, clothing, music, art, literature etc... that doesn't mean we should attempt to prevent change within those cultures. In fact many of the things we treasure about different cultures evolved over time and through a process of change, interaction and adaptation. To try to stop that process is to stop cultures - and humans - evolving and finding new things to treasure.

Having said that I think there are values which we as a whole (Human Race) develop that are important to protect, things like Human Rights, Equality, certain freedoms and liberties and so on... but even though some of these values may well be more prevalent in some cultures and more absent in others, for whatever reason - they are not the sole preserve of one particular culture - nor do they solely belong to them.

Very well said Hassan, that's pretty much how I view the whole issue.
Nothing is static, and that's true of culture too... it is always evolving, borrowing from others. Trying to cling to yours at the exclusion of all others seems bizarre.
I think mixed race people are a great way to counter such views since they are usually quite balanced and can't really hate one culture over another since they are both! And usually they find a way to compromise between the two and create their own brand of culture and tradition.
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