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 Topic: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?

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  • Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
     Reply #30 - August 13, 2011, 07:37 PM
    Quote from: Sir Wankalot on August 13, 2011, 07:34 PM
    Very well said Hassan, that's pretty much how I view the whole issue.
    Nothing is static, and that's true of culture too... it is always evolving, borrowing from others. Trying to cling to yours at the exclusion of all others seems bizarre.
    I think mixed race people are a great way to counter such views since they are usually quite balanced and can't really hate one culture over another since they are both! And usually they find a way to compromise between the two and create their own brand of culture and tradition.


    Agreed! (And thanks for highlighting that post as I think it was a good one too lol  grin12)
  • Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
     Reply #31 - August 13, 2011, 07:38 PM
     Cheesy
  • Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
     Reply #32 - August 13, 2011, 07:51 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on August 13, 2011, 07:25 PM
    Do you know of any research into the subject, Prince? Is it within individuals or whole races? I would have thought that within any particular race there would be many different genes that are being passed onto individuals. But I know next to nothing on the subject so would be interested to read some proper scientific study on it.

    I do know of such research. I was done on basis of race and it's extremely controversial.

    As far as protecting one's culture goes - culture is and should be fluid, if it becomes rigid and stale it becomes oppressive and self-destructive.

  • Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
     Reply #33 - August 13, 2011, 07:53 PM
    Quote from: Kenan on August 13, 2011, 07:51 PM
    I do know of such research. I was done on basis of race and it's extremely controversial.


    Link? What do you mean by 'controversial'?
  • Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
     Reply #34 - August 13, 2011, 08:04 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on August 13, 2011, 07:53 PM
    Link?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_Global_Inequality

    The central thesis of both studies is that average IQ of a nation correlates with its GDP.

    Quote from: Hassan on August 13, 2011, 07:53 PM
    What do you mean by 'controversial'?

    The data used and its interpretation are questionable and could be interpreted as  giving validity to scientific racism.
    Attached image is missing * National_IQ_Lynn_Vanhanen_2006_IQ_and_Global_Inequality.png (34.91 KB, 1357x628 - viewed 366 times.) Attached image is missing * legend.png (2.16 KB, 76x231 - viewed 340 times.)
  • Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
     Reply #35 - August 13, 2011, 08:08 PM
    Quote from: Kenan on August 13, 2011, 08:04 PM
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_Global_Inequality

    The central thesis of both studies is that average IQ of a nation correlates with its GDP.
    The data used and its interpretation are questionable and could be interpreted as  giving validity to scientific racism.


    Thanks Smiley
  • Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
     Reply #36 - August 13, 2011, 08:14 PM
    Having read through this thread I have to conclude that ethnicity is no more than a term, and it is only used to make a separation between groups of people by members who try to define themselves as different from other groups who in fact are of the same race. Yes, there are differences between cultures, but that has nothing to do with ethnicity. IMO, all differences between groups are cultural. Differences of intelligence are mostly caused by the differences in IQ tests.
    Religion is organized superstition
  • Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
     Reply #37 - August 13, 2011, 08:17 PM
    Correct me if I'm wrong but there is also data suggesting that the average IQ of people in the western world has actually gotten higher with time, over the last however many decades?
  • Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
     Reply #38 - August 13, 2011, 08:20 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on August 13, 2011, 08:17 PM
    Correct me if I'm wrong but there is also data suggesting that the average IQ of people in the western world has actually gotten higher with time, over the last however many decades?

    That has actually happened all over the planet.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect

  • Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
     Reply #39 - August 13, 2011, 08:22 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on August 13, 2011, 08:17 PM
    the average IQ of people in the western world has actually gotten higher with time

    Like A levels, they've made the IQ tests easier.
  • Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
     Reply #40 - August 13, 2011, 08:24 PM
    Quote from: Kenan on August 13, 2011, 08:20 PM
    That has actually happened all over the planet.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect



    Then surely there is a far more obvious conclusion from the difference in IQ between richer/poorer nations than race/genetics?
  • Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
     Reply #41 - August 13, 2011, 08:27 PM
    Quote from: Hallakuf on August 13, 2011, 08:14 PM
    Differences of intelligence are mostly caused by the differences in IQ tests.

    Even when standard test are used for all?

  • Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
     Reply #42 - August 13, 2011, 08:28 PM
    My first thought is that countries with better health care, education, housing, diet, etc... would result in higher IQs.
  • Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
     Reply #43 - August 13, 2011, 08:34 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on August 13, 2011, 08:24 PM
    Then surely there is a far more obvious conclusion from the difference in IQ between richer/poorer nations than race/genetics?

    Maybe. However east Asians consistently score the highest despite the fact that countries like China have GDP/capita much lower than Gulf states, USA, Canada, European countries ...

    East Asians in US also outperform any other group in IQ test. The existence of racial IQ gaps is well-documented but there is no consensus among researchers as to its cause.
  • Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
     Reply #44 - August 13, 2011, 08:38 PM
    It's extremely difficult, and maybe impossible, to make an IQ test that gives equal chances for everyone on this planet. There is always something cultural in these tests. An example: A psychologist talked to a Mexican child.
    Q: What would happen if I would blindfold you? A: I wouldn't be able to see. (right!)
    Q: What if they would cut your ears off? A: I wouldn't be able to see. (wrong!)
    Q: WHY? A: My hat would come down and blind me.
    In fact, this was a very intelligent answer, and better than the psychologist could think of. Without ear shells one could still hear.
    Religion is organized superstition
  • Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
     Reply #45 - August 13, 2011, 08:40 PM
    Quote from: Kenan on August 13, 2011, 08:04 PM
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_Global_Inequality

    The central thesis of both studies is that average IQ of a nation correlates with its GDP.
    The data used and its interpretation are questionable and could be interpreted as  giving validity to scientific racism.


    Well, while that would make sense given (1) brain drain from poorer to richer nations and (2) lower levels of education and skilled labor leading to a lower level of cognitive functioning for entire areas over time, I have a hard time accepting the data presented in that map. The average person in Zaire (and several other nearby nations) is mentally retarded (IQ 70 is generally the cut-off between borderline and retarded)? I don't buy it.
    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
     Reply #46 - August 13, 2011, 08:54 PM
    Quote from: Hallakuf on August 13, 2011, 08:38 PM
    It's extremely difficult, and maybe impossible, to make an IQ test that gives equal chances for everyone on this planet. There is always something cultural in these tests. An example: A psychologist talked to a Mexican child.
    Q: What would happen if I would blindfold you? A: I wouldn't be able to see. (right!)
    Q: What if they would cut your ears off? A: I wouldn't be able to see. (wrong!)
    Q: WHY? A: My hat would come down and blind me.
    In fact, this was a very intelligent answer, and better than the psychologist could think of. Without ear shells one could still hear.

    Agreed.
    But initially you said that it's the difference between IQ tests that is important and now you are saying that its adopted cultural perceptions that could make a difference.
    I do agree with that, yes.

    Quote from: Raccoon Rapist on August 13, 2011, 08:40 PM
    Well, while that would make sense given (1) brain drain from poorer to richer nations and (2) lower levels of education and skilled labor leading to a lower level of cognitive functioning for entire areas over time, I have a hard time accepting the data presented in that map. The average person in Zaire (and several other nearby nations) is mentally retarded (IQ 70 is generally the cut-off between borderline and retarded)? I don't buy it.

    I don't buy it either.
     
     For some countries the IQ was simply estimated based on the IQ of neighbouring nations.

    "For 104 of the 185 nations, no studies were available. In those cases, the authors have used an estimated value by taking averages of the IQs of neighboring or comparable nations. For example, the authors arrived at a figure of 84 for El Salvador by averaging their calculations of 79 for Guatemala and 88 for Colombia. Including those estimated IQs, the correlation of IQ and GDP is 0.62.

    To obtain a figure for South Africa, the authors averaged IQ studies done on different ethnic groups, resulting in a figure of 72. The figures for Colombia, Peru, and Singapore were arrived at in a similar manner."
  • Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
     Reply #47 - August 13, 2011, 08:55 PM
    Quote from: Raccoon Rapist on August 13, 2011, 08:40 PM
    (1) brain drain from poorer to richer nations
     I don't buy it.

    Ah yes. The famous Zaire-Korea migration.

    I don't buy it either, but for different reasons.

    (1) I think IQ tests are iffy (because I'm sure I'd score miserably).

    (2) Rather than get fixated on the intelligence of individuals, perhaps we should look at the collective intelligence of societies.
  • Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
     Reply #48 - August 13, 2011, 09:06 PM
    Quote from: David on August 13, 2011, 08:55 PM
    Ah yes. The famous Zaire-Korea migration.


    Right, so there is no brain drain from poorer nations as the most gifted migrate to richer nations for both study and work, and this would in no way affect the mean intelligence levels of poor nations. Gotcha.
    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
     Reply #49 - August 13, 2011, 09:08 PM
    That's not what I said (and of course you know it).
  • Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
     Reply #50 - August 13, 2011, 09:15 PM
    Quote from: David on August 13, 2011, 08:55 PM
    (2) Rather than get fixated on the intelligence of individuals, perhaps we should look at the collective intelligence of societies.

    What relevance would that have?

    Frankly I don't know if IQ differences between countries have purely environmental causes or if there is genetics involved.
    Whatever the cause is it doesn't mean that those with higher IQ's are entitled to discriminate against those with lower IQ's in any way.
  • Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
     Reply #51 - August 13, 2011, 09:45 PM
    Quote from: Kenan on August 13, 2011, 09:15 PM
    What relevance would that have?

    Enormous relevance, though I've no idea how you'd measure it.

    People talk a lot on here about societies' ability to innovate, often blaming lack of innovation on Islam.

    But what if the ability to innovate, adapt to change, live in peace, create art is brought about by a kind of herd intelligence rather than the individual intelligence of its members?
  • Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
     Reply #52 - August 13, 2011, 10:27 PM
    Quote from: Raccoon Rapist on August 13, 2011, 07:29 PM
    If you interpreted my statement that I think that the evidence is strong that most differences between ethnic groups is due primarily to differences in environmental conditions, but despite that I wouldn't dismiss out-of-hand any evidence which may point to genetic causes for certain differences (such as prevalence of substance abuse) as racism, then you are fucking touched in the head, as none of that even comes close to suggesting that I think that one ethnic group is innately better than another (or the reverse), which is what racism is. I might have been inclined to forgive your suggestion I was racist due to your mental handicap/disorder, if you hadn't been so fucking obnoxious and aggressive about it, and, to quote Joe Strummer, "if I get aggression, I give it two time back"


    You are the one with a handicap, brother. Not only 1. your emotional health is unstable - screaming like a hysterical bitch on the forum, 2. you also come back with some strawman (above) or probably you simply didn't understand what I was saying and 3. you think that getting beat up by cops for protesting neo-nazi club activities or "working alongside former black panthers" proves that you are not racist. Beyond ridiculous. That other thing you mentioned - fighting systemic racism - could be a benefit to you, but I'm sure you're too dumb to realize that the organization you "organized alongside" is racist by it's name irrespective of what's on their agenda. Fuck off.
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
     Reply #53 - August 13, 2011, 10:40 PM
    Quote from: Alex Lam Meem on August 13, 2011, 10:27 PM
    the organization you "organized alongside" is racist by it's name irrespective of what's on their agenda.


    You're an ignorant asshole. Drop dead.
    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
     Reply #54 - August 13, 2011, 10:44 PM
    LOL That was weak for you, sweetie. Before we take this any further, just one question - will I see you in the american meet-up?
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
     Reply #55 - August 13, 2011, 11:52 PM
    Well, Alex, I'm all about giving credit where it's due, and I'll give ya credit for being smart enough to recognize I'm not someone who just talks shit online where he's protected by anonymity and distance.

    To answer your question, as I said in PM it's unlikely unless I hit a scratcher (or otherwise come into money) between now and then as I'm blowing all my money and vacation time for a trip in November.
    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
     Reply #56 - August 14, 2011, 12:06 AM
    Lol @ the 3-page shitstorm, but I'll dive in, I guess.

    First of all, fuck preservation of ethnicity and culture. There's nothing wrong with being happy to be a camel-riding thobe-wearing tanned pure (even though "pure" doesn't actually exist) Arab for example. But when you come to a point where you need to preserve it in order to give yourself any identity and/or dignity, it shows how insecure you are and/or the importance of your role in society. This whole "don't forget your ancestry" is bullshit, and "don't forget who you are" is even more bullshit. Since when did it become obligatory to preserve my arab culture? Why should I be ashamed for not preserving it? Why do I have to show and prove how arab I am to other people? Like ALM said, being too protective of culture and ethnicity is bad.

    As far as genetics goes, I guess you tie it in the form of artificial selection. There should be a historical explanation for why the alcoholic gene is more common among the Irish for example. Some African tribes are genetically different from one another, but why? One tribe does not want people with large noses, while another doesn't want small noses. If the large nose tribe has a baby with a big nose, they would cast them out, and vice versa. Whereas other tribes care more about height or agility. Rather than genes having an affect on culture, it's the culture that affects gene selection.
    Genetics has little to no relation to IQ. Obviously Somalia has a lesser IQ average because most people are too busy with more important things like looking for food and healthcare, so it's not like it's their fault. Retardedness doesn't mean there is no IQ. You can leave a baby to grow up alone in the jungle and he will have lesser IQ than a retard. The difference is the retard's brain is limited. You can raise a jungle boy's IQ by teaching him, there's only so much you can do with a mentally hadicapped peseon. But when you compare two developed countries that don't have these problems, like America and China, you would still see a difference. One culture values education and intelligence more than the other. Same thing goes with black people being more musical.
    Being black doesn't make you more musical, rather bring raised in an environment that greatly values musical skills will more likely produce more musicians. And combined with their history of slavery and racism, you can understand why their music, songs and poetry attracts more attention. Food is vital part of Italian culture, you would expect more chefs. All I'm saying is that intelligence relies heavily, if not completely, on environment and culture.
    I know someday you'll have a beautiful life, I know you'll be a star
    In somebody else's sky, but why, why, why
    Can't it be, can't it be mine

    https://twitter.com/AlharbiMoe
  • Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
     Reply #57 - August 14, 2011, 02:19 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on August 13, 2011, 07:53 PM
    Link? What do you mean by 'controversial'?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainstream_Science_on_Intelligence

    My main problem with this is that it presumes that IQ is mostly a result of genetics and that education and upbringing (environmental conditions) play a secondary role. I personally would have thought that they both play an important role and that the differences in the mean IQ between different ethnic groups (and nationalities in the case of the research mentioned by Kenan) are due to conditions rather genetics.
  • Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
     Reply #58 - August 14, 2011, 02:33 AM
    I mean just one of the things I know that can affect mental and cognitive abilities is hemoglobin levels and we all know it is affected by nutrition.

    http://ehp03.niehs.nih.gov/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1289%2Fehp.0901878
    http://www.medicinenet.com/hemoglobin/page2.htm#4whatdoes
  • Re: What are your views on protecting ethnicity?
     Reply #59 - August 14, 2011, 04:49 AM
    Quote from: Raccoon Rapist on August 13, 2011, 11:52 PM
    Well, Alex, I'm all about giving credit where it's due, and I'll give ya credit for being smart enough to recognize I'm not someone who just talks shit online where he's protected by anonymity and distance.


    I hate to keep doing this to the forum, so feel free to PM me if you want to talk more about your childhood traumas.

    Quote from: MoeAlharbi on August 14, 2011, 12:06 AM
    Lol @ the 3-page shitstorm, but I'll dive in, I guess.

    First of all, fuck preservation of ethnicity and culture. There's nothing wrong with being happy to be a camel-riding thobe-wearing tanned pure (even though "pure" doesn't actually exist) Arab for example. But when you come to a point where you need to preserve it in order to give yourself any identity and/or dignity, it shows how insecure you are and/or the importance of your role in society. This whole "don't forget your ancestry" is bullshit, and "don't forget who you are" is even more bullshit. Since when did it become obligatory to preserve my arab culture? Why should I be ashamed for not preserving it? Why do I have to show and prove how arab I am to other people? Like ALM said, being too protective of culture and ethnicity is bad.

    As far as genetics goes, I guess you tie it in the form of artificial selection. There should be a historical explanation for why the alcoholic gene is more common among the Irish for example. Some African tribes are genetically different from one another, but why? One tribe does not want people with large noses, while another doesn't want small noses. If the large nose tribe has a baby with a big nose, they would cast them out, and vice versa. Whereas other tribes care more about height or agility. Rather than genes having an affect on culture, it's the culture that affects gene selection.
    Genetics has little to no relation to IQ. Obviously Somalia has a lesser IQ average because most people are too busy with more important things like looking for food and healthcare, so it's not like it's their fault. Retardedness doesn't mean there is no IQ. You can leave a baby to grow up alone in the jungle and he will have lesser IQ than a retard. The difference is the retard's brain is limited. You can raise a jungle boy's IQ by teaching him, there's only so much you can do with a mentally hadicapped peseon. But when you compare two developed countries that don't have these problems, like America and China, you would still see a difference. One culture values education and intelligence more than the other. Same thing goes with black people being more musical.
    Being black doesn't make you more musical, rather bring raised in an environment that greatly values musical skills will more likely produce more musicians. And combined with their history of slavery and racism, you can understand why their music, songs and poetry attracts more attention. Food is vital part of Italian culture, you would expect more chefs. All I'm saying is that intelligence relies heavily, if not completely, on environment and culture.


    The Dude, that was a long post. Will you give me credit for realizing it's personal for you? Great paraphrasing of my work too.
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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