5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #90 - August 30, 2011, 01:22 AM

Quote from: z10 on August 30, 2011, 01:13 AM
good point

I don't think you need to be a poor philanthropist in order to rebel against a god who'd eternally torture your loved ones. Especially if you had to watch.

I mean, would you not rebel against such a god?

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #91 - August 30, 2011, 01:24 AM

This has nothing to do with "humanistic supremacy", I think. I doubt even Muslims would enjoy it :/

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #92 - August 30, 2011, 08:27 AM

Yeah, I think there's a difference between partial indifference to the incidental suffering of others and sucking up to a sadistic torturer of millions.
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #93 - August 30, 2011, 09:41 AM

Quote
Yeah, I think there's a difference between partial indifference to the incidental suffering of others and sucking up to a sadistic torturer of ~~millions~~.

Billions. Considering the overwhelming majority of people on this planet are NOT muslim.
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #94 - August 30, 2011, 10:16 AM

Quote from: debunker on August 29, 2011, 07:50 PM

oh come on! I bet you could enjoy the most expensive luxuries in life from time to time while fully knowing that sacrificing a tiny bit would lessen the intensity of the cries of a few sufferers in this world, yet, you'd prefer to buy that expensive perfume or bottle of champaign, etc, over spending the luxury money on some unfortunate souls. Now, just imagine how far you're capable of enjoying your fortunes when you already know there's nothing you can do to help ease the suffering of others!

So unless you're the kind who actaully spends the bare minimum to meet their most basic needs, in order to be able to save the rest of your fortune to help sufferers of this world, please drop this pretentious self-righteous act.... it's nauseating.

No, debunker. If I could literally hear their screams all the time, then I won't be able to take pleasure in heaven if it were "me". if Same with my parents etc going to hell even if I couldn't hear them scream.

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #95 - August 30, 2011, 10:16 AM

Quote from: Zebedee on August 30, 2011, 08:27 AM
Yeah, I think there's a difference between partial indifference to the incidental suffering of others and sucking up to a sadistic torturer of millions.

+1

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #96 - August 30, 2011, 10:30 AM

Quote from: debunker on August 29, 2011, 07:50 PM

So unless you're the kind who actaully spends the bare minimum to meet their most basic needs, in order to be able to save the rest of your fortune to help sufferers of this world, please drop this pretentious self-righteous act.... it's nauseating.

I can't do anything about Josef Frtizl and his torture of his children for decades in the basement hell he'd constructed for them - but if I'd known it was happening when it was happening, after calling the police, I'd have reserved my contempt for him, even though I was living a care free torture free life.

You know, I think a long term psychological study should be conducted on the psychological terrors, oppressions, fears and hatreds and desensitisation and demonisation of others that accrue through the indoctrination from childhood of a philosophy of torture and sadism and violent punishment - to consider and actively teach that humans 'deserve' to be tortured unimaginably - what does this do to individuals sense off human worth, and how does this reflect on a society in which to even question this is considered worthy of death itself?

When mankind repudiates the Josef Fritzl - God, humanity begins to take responsiblity for herself, and regards the pain of others with empathy, and not by a metric of punishment and pain and horror and reward and terror and 'deserving'.

When Josef Fritzl - God gets repudiated, people begin to privelige the individual right over the collective right, and the realisation that we can better society because we can strive to perfect imperfect laws and rules and help each other. Josef Frtzl - God says the divine law is already perfect and so any deviation from it is perversion worthy of hunting and judgment, leading downwards in a spiral to the 'deserving' of that torture and violence.

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #97 - August 30, 2011, 12:59 PM

Ok, I'm glad you understand that point.

Quote from: debunker on August 29, 2011, 07:50 PM
So unless you're the kind who actaully spends the bare minimum to meet their most basic needs, in order to be able to save the rest of your fortune to help sufferers of this world, please drop this pretentious self-righteous act.... it's nauseating.

(Attempting to invoke a negative self-image through words like; pretentious, self-righteous - is a common tactic in debates/discussion from my experience, it's a way of deflecting attention from the main issue. I hope that isn't the reason why you keep repeating similar words.)

I read you post and was about to reply, but dudes like asbdsp, harakaat, crazyislam and billy already articulated many of the points I was going to make!

Especially this...

Quote from: Zebedee on August 30, 2011, 08:27 AM
Yeah, I think there's a difference between partial indifference to the incidental suffering of others and sucking up to a sadistic torturer of millions.

A key problem I have with your assertion that I'd be able to enjoy heaven because I don't live like Gandhi, is that I don't hear the screams of people being tortured or abused whilst eating a take-away or watching a comedy on TV.

One thing I know about my self is that if I could here the screams of someone being tortured in the next room, I wouldn't be able to enjoy my food and the other luxuries I enjoy. You honestly could (genuine question)?

According to Islamic theology Allah (the most merciful) will inflict torture on human beings worse than methods used in the spanish inquisition for eternity. Would you be able to enjoy heaven hearing the screams of your family and friends being tortured, and knowing how they are being tortured?

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #98 - August 30, 2011, 01:03 PM

Quote from: crazyislam on August 30, 2011, 10:16 AM
No, debunker. If I could literally hear their screams all the time, then I won't be able to take pleasure in heaven if it were "me". if Same with my parents etc going to hell even if I couldn't hear them scream.

and who said Paradise dwellers would be hearing the screams of poor souls all the time??!! This would be torture for Paradise dwellers. 19:62; 21:101-103; 56:25.

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #99 - August 30, 2011, 01:08 PM

Quote from: strangestdude on August 30, 2011, 12:59 PM
Ok, I'm glad you understand that point.

(Attempting to invoke a negative self-image through words like; pretentious, self-righteous - is a common tactic in debates/discussion from my experience, it's a way of deflecting attention from the main issue. I hope that isn't the reason why you keep repeating similar words.)

I read you post and was about to reply, but dudes like asbdsp, harakaat, crazyislam and billy already articulated many of the points I was going to make!

Especially this...

A key problem I have with your assertion that I'd be able to enjoy heaven because I don't live like Gandhi, is that I don't hear the screams of people being tortured or abused whilst eating a take-away or watching a comedy on TV.

One thing I know about my self is that if I could here the screams of someone being tortured in the next room, I wouldn't be able to enjoy my food and the other luxuries I enjoy. You honestly could (genuine question)?

According to Islamic theology Allah (the most merciful) will inflict torture on human beings worse than methods used in the spanish inquisition for eternity. Would you be able to enjoy heaven hearing the screams of your family and friends being tortured, and knowing how they are being tortured?

again more of the same "oh, I can't hear someone's torture and enjoy myself!" How ridiculously obvious is that?! What kind of a "paradise" is that where you hear the suffering of others??!! Check my previous post with verses!

Plus, you do not have to be poor to help others, just save your *luxury* money to spend it on hungry mouths. Of course, I don't expect you to do that either (I wouldn't do it myself), but I'm not the one who's claiming the higher moral gound here.

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #100 - August 30, 2011, 01:13 PM

Quote from: billy on August 30, 2011, 10:30 AM
I can't do anything about Josef Frtizl and his torture of his children for decades in the basement hell he'd constructed for them - but if I'd known it was happening when it was happening, after calling the police, I'd have reserved my contempt for him, even though I was living a care free torture free life.

Exactly. The more I began to read (and visualize) Allah's methods of torture waiting for those who displease him the weaker my faith in Islam became. I actually had to stop reading the Quran in order to hang on my iman, because God came across as sadistic megalomaniac that I naturally began to incline away from.

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #101 - August 30, 2011, 01:16 PM

Isn't being an eternal tenant of paradise torture enough?

Quote from: debunker on August 30, 2011, 01:03 PM
and who said Paradise dwellers would be hearing the screams of poor souls all the time??!! This would be torture for Paradise dwellers. 19:62; 21:101-103; 56:25.

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #102 - August 30, 2011, 01:22 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on August 30, 2011, 08:27 AM
Yeah, I think there's a difference between partial indifference to the incidental suffering of others and sucking up to a sadistic torturer of millions.

saying *sadistic* emplies that He enjoys it. I have explained my view of Hell many times before: Hell = God not caring. If God doesn't care for me at all, He won't care to make my fate anything less than eternal Hell.

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #103 - August 30, 2011, 01:24 PM

Quote from: toor on August 30, 2011, 01:16 PM
Isn't being an eternal tenant of paradise torture enough?

I know that response was supposed to seem smart and sophiticated, but the answer is no. I'd love to be able to live forever in eternal peace of mind.

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #104 - August 30, 2011, 01:29 PM

Oh dear. I appear to have annoyed our resident mind-reader. Good luck in your quest for eternal bliss; your God has too many human attributes for my liking.

Quote from: debunker on August 30, 2011, 01:24 PM
I know that response was supposed to seem smart and sophiticated, but the answer is no. I'd love to be able to live forever in eternal peace of mind.

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #105 - August 30, 2011, 01:32 PM

Quote
Oh dear. I appear to have annoyed our resident mind-reader. Good luck in your quest for eternal bliss; your God has too many human attributes for my liking.

i am no mind-reader but you are right, i am annoyed by smug people.

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #106 - August 30, 2011, 01:34 PM

Do you have a second career as a psychic?

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #107 - August 30, 2011, 01:38 PM

Quote from: asbdsp#J on August 30, 2011, 01:22 AM
The idea that strangestdude wouldn't worry about the suffering of the eternally tormented in hell if he were in heaven does nothing to dilute his real point which was that he feels morally superior to a god who would exact such a cruel punishment in the first place.

Again, not even Hitler, or the worst human, can go so low as to inflict eternal torture on other men. So you see, it's nothing for dude to brag about really, for not even Mao can allow himself to do it.

Quote
Just because I don't donate all of my earnings to help alleviate suffering in a famine struck region, that doesn't make me morally equivalent to the warlords who torched the fields in the first place.

ok, keep pretending that you have to become poor in order to be able to help others OR go ahead, sell you luxury items and give the money to those in pain.

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #108 - August 30, 2011, 01:41 PM

Quote from: toor on August 30, 2011, 01:34 PM
Do you have a second career as a psychic?

no, i don't even belive in psychic powers, why do you ask? (see? i don't even know why you asked the question, that proves i'm no psychic).

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #109 - August 30, 2011, 01:42 PM

Quote
saying *sadistic* emplies that He enjoys it. I have explained my view of Hell many times before: Hell = God not caring. If God doesn't care for me at all, He won't care to make my fate anything less than eternal Hell.

Apathy to the eternal suffering of your creation doesn't seem fitting of the most merciful being, which is one of the names given to Allah. So, do you worship such a being? For fear of punishment, hope of reward?

Quote
oh come on! I bet you could enjoy the most expensive luxuries in life from time to time while fully knowing that sacrificing a tiny bit would lessen the intensity of the cries of a few sufferers in this world, yet, you'd prefer to buy that expensive perfume or bottle of champaign, etc, over spending the luxury money on some unfortunate souls. Now, just imagine how far you're capable of enjoying your fortunes when you already know there's nothing you can do to help ease the suffering of others!

In one case it's temporal suffering for which we are not directly responsible; in other case it's eternal suffering for which He (Allah) is directly responsible. Pretty significant difference.

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #110 - August 30, 2011, 01:49 PM

Quote
Apathy to the eternal suffering of your creation doesn't seem fitting of the most merciful being.
So, do you worship such a being? For fear of punishment, hope of reward?

Reward and punishment are secondary reasons. It's like when you owe someone money, and you have to pay him back the money regardless of punishment, and regardless of whether you liked him or not.

Quote
In one case it's temporal suffering for which you are not directly responsible; in other case it's eternal suffering for which you (Allah) are directly responsible. Pretty significant difference.

so what? God is *ultimately* responsible in both cases.

Quote
Are you implying Allah can do nothing to help ease the suffering of others?
How about: not creating such world?

of course He can end all suffering. In fact, He can give paradise NOW and for EVERYONE. It's just that He chose not to.

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #111 - August 30, 2011, 01:57 PM

Quote from: debunker on August 30, 2011, 01:08 PM
again more of the same "oh, I can't hear someone's torture and enjoy myself!" How ridiculously obvious is that?! What kind of a "paradise" is that where you hear the suffering of others??!! Check my previous post with verses!

Even if you only occasionally heard the screams of the eternal torture of your loved ones, would you still be able to enjoy hell?

Simply knowing family and friends are being tortured merciless would affect most human being adversely. Would you be able to enjoy heaven with the knowledge that loved ones are being brutally tortured?

Please answer the questions.

Quote from: debunker on August 30, 2011, 01:08 PM
Plus, you do not have to be poor to help others, just save your *luxury* money to spend it on hungry mouths. Of course, I don't expect you to do that either (I wouldn't do it myself), but I'm not the one who's claiming the higher moral gound here.

(You seem to think I'm middle class, that's definitely not the case. I'm working class and my wife and I live at home with my mother because we can't afford a place of our own - I'm normally in my overdraft. I'm definitely not like the poor bastards in Somalia, but I'm not living it up.)

Calling people self-righteous and pretentious is a moral judgement.

My objection to the eternal torture of billions of human beings isn't sanctimonious bullshit, it's one of the reasons why I left Islam - it's a genuine revulsion shared by most atheists.

I know my perspective is understood and felt by large numbers of human beings - even muslims. Many muslims become uncomfortable and create elaborate arguments to try to justify Allah's desire to torture people eternally.

We aren't talking about giving charity to people who've encountered (accidental) tragic life circumstances on earth (famine, etc), we are talking about the systematic torture of billions of human beings.

Also I agree with the perspective that in order to minimize future human suffering we have to radically change our global economic and political system. The infinite growth paradigm that our global economic system is based on (fossil fuels, money created as debt, war) has brought about the majority of human suffering that we are witnessing - and will witness as the global economy gets worse. Charity is a short-term solution IMO (though an important one).

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #112 - August 30, 2011, 02:01 PM

Quote
Reward and punishment are secondary reasons. It's like when you owe someone money, and you have to pay him back the money regardless of punishment, and regardless of whether you liked him or not.

There is a difference. When you owe someone money it usually means you entered in voluntary contract with the lender, taking up the responsibility. In contrast, you had no say in being born, so whatever price Allah demands for your soul was imposed without your agreement. Why should I feel obligated to pay him anything? I'd much rather not have been born at all.

Quote
so what? God is *ultimately* responsible.

So what? Just showing that one case is far more reprehensible.

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #113 - August 30, 2011, 02:08 PM

@ billy

Quote
I can't do anything about Josef Frtizl and his torture of his children for decades in the basement hell he'd constructed for them - but if I'd known it was happening when it was happening, after calling the police, I'd have reserved my contempt for him, even though I was living a care free torture free life.

that's different, but you know there are millions of people in pain of whom you can help a few. For example, would you sell your expensive watch, to feed a hungry mouth for a week or a month or even a year (depending on how expensive your watch is)? I wouldn't.

Quote
You know, I think a long term psychological study should be conducted on the psychological terrors, oppressions, fears and hatreds and desensitisation and demonisation of others that accrue through the indoctrination from childhood of a philosophy of torture and sadism and violent punishment - to consider and actively teach that humans 'deserve' to be tortured unimaginably - what does this do to individuals sense off human worth, and how does this reflect on a society in which to even question this is considered worthy of death itself?

I think most believers (and non believers) brush off the threats of eternal torture as something "irrelevant" to their current lives, the same way we all ingore the certitude of our death, in order to be able to live normal happy lives.

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When mankind repudiates the Josef Fritzl - God, humanity begins to take responsiblity for herself, and regards the pain of others with empathy, and not by a metric of punishment and pain and horror and reward and terror and 'deserving'.

like i said above, you're giving too much weight to the effect of threats of torture on the human psyche.... I really don't think threats of torture that might materilaize 'after' death have much of an affect on our lives. People worship God because they believe He exists and they need to belive that He's a communicative God, hence the urge to believe in holy books.

Quote
When Josef Fritzl - God gets repudiated, people begin to privelige the individual right over the collective right, and the realisation that we can better society because we can strive to perfect imperfect laws and rules and help each other. Josef Frtzl - God says the divine law is already perfect and so any deviation from it is perversion worthy of hunting and judgment, leading downwards in a spiral to the 'deserving' of that torture and violence.

are you discussing religious laws? How many countries are applying these today? 2?

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #114 - August 30, 2011, 02:09 PM

I gave all my Eid money today to charity. Now may I call your God a sadistic prick?

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #115 - August 30, 2011, 02:11 PM

Quote
I gave all my Eid money today to charity. Now may I call your God a sadistic prick?

do you really need my permission?

besides, dude was comparing his (righteous) self to *me*, a believer who would enjoy paradise despite knowing that others are suffering in Hell.

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #116 - August 30, 2011, 02:25 PM

Quote from: strangestdude on August 30, 2011, 01:57 PM
Even if you only occasionally heard the screams of the eternal torture of your loved ones, would you still be able to enjoy hell?

Of course not. Paradise would be another Hell whether the occasionally heard screams are from loved ones or enemies.

Quote
Simply knowing family and friends are being tortured merciless would affect most human being adversely. Would you be able to enjoy heaven with the knowledge that loved ones are being brutally tortured?

If I keep thinking about them, the answer is no. i have a dear friend who is losing his eyesight slowly but surely... I used to hang out with him all the time trying to ease his pain, eventually i gave up on him... I want to live without suffering for his suffering.... I shut him out of mind, yes, I am selfish just like that!

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Calling people self-righteous and pretentious is a moral judgement.

it was a response to your judging me first.

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My objection to the eternal torture of billions of human beings isn't sanctimonious bullshit, it's one of the reasons why I left Islam - it's a genuine revulsion shared by most atheists.

I understand that.

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I know my perspective is understood and felt by large numbers of human beings - even muslims. Many muslims become uncomfortable and create elaborate arguments to try to justify Allah's desire to torture people eternally.

This not shared by me..... I genuinely believe I have no rights with God. If He so chooses to throw me in Hell and give you eternal bliss, then I still have no right to object.

Quote
We aren't talking about giving charity to people who've encountered (accidental) tragic life circumstances on earth (famine, etc), we are talking about the systematic torture of billions of human beings.

Has the suffering of people on earth ever stopped? just because suffering people die, it doesn't mean that suffering itself is over for planet earth dwellers. Besides, I was only giving an example. The same human psyche that can ignore the suffering of others, despite knowing that we can help a bit, is probably the same one that can forget the suffering in the other world, no matter how unimaginable, especially when we can't help it at all.

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #117 - August 30, 2011, 02:33 PM

But why would you worship a god like that?

If given the choice between paradise and non-existence, I'm pretty sure I would choose non-existence. If given the choice between paradise and hell, then I'm not so sure. But I know it would be a tough choice. And I might choose hell.

But one thing I do know for sure -- I would never worship a god like that. I'm not saying I'm "better" than you -- I think you probably feel the same way, but are trying to suppress your feelings.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #118 - August 30, 2011, 02:36 PM

When I used to be a Muslim, the way I'd deal with it was with a priori rationalizations that asserted how if morality comes from God, then torturing innocents (well, not so innocent by Islamic standards) mercilessly was by definition, necessarily good. Therefore, it was my perverted nature that made me feel terrible about it. Then I'd just try to stop thinking about it, and think about my houries instead.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #119 - August 30, 2011, 02:36 PM

Quote from: Stuff on August 30, 2011, 02:01 PM
There is a difference. When you owe someone money it usually means you entered in voluntary contract with the lender, taking up the responsibility.

Believe it or not, the Quran says it was man who choose to accept this responsibility.

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In contrast, you had no say in being born, so whatever price Allah demands for your soul was imposed without your agreement. Why should I feel obligated to pay him anything? I'd much rather not have been born at all.

Besides the fact that we have no rights with God (He owns absolutely everything), how could your permission (regarding your creation) be taken before you were created?

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So what? Just showing that one case is far more reprehensible.

i'm not sure i follow.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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