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 Topic: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?

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  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #120 - August 30, 2011, 02:37 PM
    Quote
    Of course not. Paradise would be another Hell whether the occasionally heard screams are from loved ones or enemies.


    Sooo...What about Sura 7:50?

    The people of the Fire will call out to the people of Paradise: "Pour on us some water, or some of what Allah has provided you." They will say, Allah has prohibited these for disbelievers.

    Quote
    This not shared by me..... I genuinely believe I have no rights with God. If He so chooses to throw me in Hell and give you eternal bliss, then I still have no right to object.


    Honorable chairman knows best!

    Quote
    Believe it or not, the Quran says it was man who choose to accept this responsibility.


    After they were put in debt (by virtue of birth) and threatened with eternal torture?

    Quote
    Besides the fact that we have no rights with God (He owns absolutely everything), how could your permission (regarding your creation) be taken before you were created?


    It couldn't, but Allah already knew what opinion I would have before he actualized me.
    He knew "this Stuff guy I'm thinking of will hate living and won't believe in me. By golly, I better include him in my universe."

    Quote
    i'm not sure i follow.


    What's there not to follow?
    It is far less merciful to create beings who will suffer forever than it is to ignore temporal suffering of beings which you have not caused.
    Have you heard the good news? There is no God!
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #121 - August 30, 2011, 02:42 PM
    Quote from: harakaat on August 30, 2011, 02:33 PM
    But why would you worship a god like that?

    because i have no say in the matter (besides, I do really love Him).

    Quote
    If given the choice between paradise and non-existence, I'm pretty sure I would choose non-existence. If given the choice between paradise and hell, then I'm not so sure. But I know it would be a tough choice. And I might choose hell.

    this means you're very tough. I'm not like you. But honestly, what i don't understand is why would He care about any of us at all. I have no problem imagining Him not caring about the dwellers of a pale blue dot in this universe, the problem I have is why He would care to save some of us. We are all infinitely insignificant compared to Him.
     
    Quote
    But one thing I do know for sure -- I would never worship a god like that. I'm not saying I'm "better" than you -- I think you probably feel the same way, but are trying to suppress your feelings.

    like i said i love God.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #122 - August 30, 2011, 02:52 PM
    Quote from: Stuff on August 30, 2011, 02:37 PM
    Sooo...What about Sura 7:50?

    The people of the Fire will call out to the people of Paradise: "Pour on us some water, or some of what Allah has provided you." They will say, Allah has prohibited these for disbelievers.

    you probably missed these verses 19:62; 21:101-103; 56:25. That verse describes a "scene". It doesn't mean it's recurring.

    Quote
    Honorable chairman knows best!

    It's not about Him knowing best, it's about Him doing whatever He wants with what He created.  

    Quote
    After they were already put in debt?

     
    No, man could have been like the rest of the universe, without an ability to choose but to obey God. This ability was a gift with heavy responsibility, which man accepted.

    Quote
    It couldn't, but Allah already knew what opinion I will have before he actualized me.

    True, but again, God simply does whatever He chooses... and He chose to create us.

    Quote
    What's there not to follow?
    It is far less merciful to create beings who will suffer forever than it is to ignore temporal suffering of beings which you have not caused.

    You project your human concept of mercy on God. God is NOT human. When God doesn't care about me, He doesn't care to give me anything less than the worst imaginable condition: an eternity in Hell.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #123 - August 30, 2011, 02:58 PM
    Also, I don't understand how God's apathy = eternal torture. Why doesn't he just wipe us out of existence? Why is it either bliss or torture?

    Like, the Jews used to believe that "bad" people would just die forever, didn't they? That makes much more sense than:

    http://www.alhandasa.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8475 (if you read Arabic)
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #124 - August 30, 2011, 02:58 PM
    Quote from: harakaat on August 30, 2011, 02:36 PM
    When I used to be a Muslim, the way I'd deal with it was with a priori rationalizations that asserted how if morality comes from God, then torturing innocents (well, not so innocent by Islamic standards) mercilessly was by definition, necessarily good. Therefore, it was my perverted nature that made me feel terrible about it. Then I'd just try to stop thinking about it, and think about my houries instead.


    It is much simpler than you think. None of God's creations have rights with God. When I have no rights, whatever God does with me is good; that's why morality doesn't apply to God. He owes it ONLY to Himself, and no one else, to keep His promises.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #125 - August 30, 2011, 03:02 PM
    Quote from: harakaat on August 30, 2011, 02:58 PM
    Also, I don't understand how God's apathy = eternal torture. Why doesn't he just wipe us out of existence? Why is it either bliss or torture?

    Like, the Jews used to believe that "bad" people would just die forever, didn't they? That makes much more sense than:

    http://www.alhandasa.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8475 (if you read Arabic)


    because God giving me eternal death instead of torture IS showing He cares for me enough as to save me from living in the worst possible condition.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #126 - August 30, 2011, 03:19 PM
    Quote from: debunker on August 30, 2011, 02:52 PM
    you probably missed these verses 19:62; 21:101-103; 56:25. That verse describes a "scene". It doesn't mean it's recurring.


    Even so, it's a scene you ought to remember for the rest of your "peaceful" eternity which you share with a being who tortures other people. You seem like a cruel SOB though, so maybe it wouldn't trouble you.

    Quote
    It's not about Him knowing best, it's about Him doing whatever He wants with what He created.  

     
    Assuming there were no god, do you think it's alright for parents to mutilate and torture their children? They created them, after all.

    Quote
    No, man could have been like the rest of the universe, without an ability to choose but to obey God. This ability was a gift with heavy responsibility, which man accepted.


    Who is this "man" you are talking of? Sure as hell wasn't me. I don't share ego with other men.

    Quote
    True, but again, God simply does whatever He chooses... and He chose to create us.
    You project your human concept of mercy on God. God is NOT human. When God doesn't care about me, He doesn't care to give me anything less than the worst imaginable condition: an eternity in Hell.


    Allah knew what human words refer to. Didn't Allah refer to himself as all-merciful? He knew what we understand by that word, and chose to employ it.


    PS: why do you believe Qur'an is revealed word of god?
    Have you heard the good news? There is no God!
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #127 - August 30, 2011, 03:44 PM
    Quote from: debunker on August 30, 2011, 03:02 PM
    because God giving me eternal death instead of torture IS showing He cares for me enough as to save me from living in the worst possible condition.


    You're treating torture as the default state that you need to be "saved" from. That's an arbitrary judgment. To an omnipotent God, putting me in hell would take just as much effort (that is to say, none) as killing my soul or putting me in heaven. In fact, if God truly didn't care, then our spirits would probably swim in some kind of ethereal limbo forever after we die. I don't see why you define hell as the default destination.
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #128 - August 30, 2011, 03:45 PM
    "When I have no rights, whatever God does with me is good"

    Huh?

    How do you logically go from "I have no rights", to "Torturing me is *good*"?
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #129 - August 30, 2011, 03:54 PM
    Quote from: debunker on August 30, 2011, 02:08 PM
    I think most believers (and non believers) brush off the threats of eternal torture as something "irrelevant" to their current lives, the same way we all ingore the certitude of our death, in order to be able to live normal happy lives.
        like i said above, you're giving too much weight to the effect of threats of torture on the human psyche.... I really don't think threats of torture that might materilaize 'after' death have much of an affect on our lives.



    I think that the atmospherics of individual and collective lives are manifestly dehumanised by an emphasis on this kind of idea - especially when dwelled upon and emphasised in detail.

    Truth claiming religions make assertions of causal interventions too - they are the source of their own claims. Its just that they claim this causality is good.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #130 - August 30, 2011, 03:57 PM
    Quote from: Stuff on August 30, 2011, 03:19 PM
    Even so, it's a scene you ought to remember for the rest of your "peaceful" eternity which you share with a being who tortures other people. You seem like a cruel SOB though, so maybe it wouldn't trouble you.

     
    and you seem like a stupid piece of shit... so you can fuck off now.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #131 - August 30, 2011, 04:03 PM
    ...irritable, too.
    I guess you and Allah are worthy of each other's company.
    Have you heard the good news? There is no God!
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #132 - August 30, 2011, 04:03 PM
    Quote from: harakaat on August 30, 2011, 03:44 PM
    You're treating torture as the default state that you need to be "saved" from. That's an arbitrary judgment. To an omnipotent God, putting me in hell would take just as much effort (that is to say, none) as killing my soul or putting me in heaven. In fact, if God truly didn't care, then our spirits would probably swim in some kind of ethereal limbo forever after we die. I don't see why you define hell as the default destination.


    what if death doesn't actually exist. By that i mean (and that's what I really belive) death is simply a state of *unconsciousness*. So how is choosing unconciousness as the default state is less of an arbitrary option than the worst possible conscious state?

    what if imposing unconsiousness on me takes just as much effort (that is to say, none) as putting me in Hell?
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #133 - August 30, 2011, 04:06 PM
    Quote from: Stuff on August 30, 2011, 04:03 PM
    ...irritable, too.
    I guess you and Allah are worthy of each other's company.


    oh, buzz off!
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #134 - August 30, 2011, 04:11 PM
    Quote from: billy on August 30, 2011, 03:54 PM
    I think that the atmospherics of individual and collective lives are manifestly dehumanised by an emphasis on this kind of idea - especially when dwelled upon and emphasised in detail.

    Truth claiming religions make assertions of causal interventions too - they are the source of their own claims. Its just that they claim this causality is good.


    that's the point: no body really dwells upon these threats. Some preachers, all they do is emphasize these but their effects don't usually linger for too long.... people are too busy living to think about their moment of death and what might come afterwards.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #135 - August 30, 2011, 04:16 PM
    Quote from: harakaat on August 30, 2011, 03:45 PM
    "When I have no rights, whatever God does with me is good"

    Huh?

    How do you logically go from "I have no rights", to "Torturing me is *good*"?


    that's why I added: "Or morality simply doesn't apply to God".
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #136 - August 30, 2011, 04:16 PM
    Quote from: debunker on August 30, 2011, 04:03 PM
    what if death doesn't actually exist. By that i mean (and that's what I really belive) death is simply a state of *unconsciousness*. So how is choosing unconciousness as the default state is less of an arbitrary option than the worst possible conscious state?

    what if imposing unconsiousness on me takes just as much effort (that is to say, none) as putting me in Hell?


    Because you are *put* in hell, or you're *put* in heaven, while death happens through natural means. If however, you subscribe to the philosophical position that nothing happens without the will of god, then you're right -- it's arbitrary. So my point stands -- why should hell be the default destination?
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #137 - August 30, 2011, 04:22 PM
    Quote from: debunker on August 30, 2011, 04:11 PM
    that's the point: no body really dwells upon these threats. Some preachers, all they do is emphasize these but their effects don't usually linger for too long.... people are too busy living to think about their moment of death and what might come afterwards.


    But they are a part of the armoury of Islam, and they can condition attitudes.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #138 - August 30, 2011, 04:23 PM
    Quote
    Because you are *put* in hell, or you're *put* in heaven, while death happens through natural means. If however, you subscribe to the philosophical position that nothing happens without the will of god, then you're right -- it's arbitrary. So my point stands -- why should hell be the default destination?


    of course I believe God is the creator of absolutely everything, including Him being the creator of my state of unconsciousness. As to why Hell being the default state, it's just what I understood from reading the Quran. And I think I can look for the relevant verse too. So the Quran says Hell is the default (careless) state, and if God doesn't care for me, that means Hell.  
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #139 - August 30, 2011, 04:24 PM
    I'd like to see those verses.
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #140 - August 30, 2011, 04:25 PM
    Quote from: billy on August 30, 2011, 04:22 PM
    But they are a part of the armoury of Islam, and they can condition attitudes.


    believe me, the attitudes of Muslims/religious leaders are conditioned by the arrogant stance that God is on their side, and nothing more.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #141 - August 30, 2011, 04:25 PM
    Quote from: harakaat on August 30, 2011, 04:24 PM
    I'd like to see those verses.


    19:71-72.

    32:14; 45:34; 18:105.

    Also you might want to take a look at this post:
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8392.msg208696#msg208696
    I changed my mind regarding some of what i have said back then, but i still stand by most of what i said.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #142 - August 30, 2011, 04:39 PM
    Quote from: debunker on August 30, 2011, 04:25 PM
    believe me, the attitudes of Muslims/religious leaders are conditioned by the arrogant stance that God is on their side, and nothing more.


    Even if that is the case, the brutality of it remains.

    Nobody is saying that Christian and post Christian societies are perfect - but when the tyranny of 'Hell' and its sadistic depredations were repudiated, the tyranny of institutionalised Christianity was also destablised. A space was finally opened for dissent, non literalism, individual conscience.

    The height of blasphemy - sadism-hell Christendom was the height, in so many ways, of material cruelty in the name of Christianity.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #143 - August 30, 2011, 04:50 PM
    Quote
    Even if that is the case, the brutality of it remains.

    Nobody is saying that Christian and post Christian societies are perfect - but when the tyranny of 'Hell' and its sadistic depredations were repudiated, the tyranny of institutionalised Christianity was also destablised. A space was finally opened for dissent, non literalism, individual conscience.

    The height of blasphemy - sadism-hell Christendom was the height, in so many ways, of material cruelty in the name of Christianity.


    I still don't think that religious cruelty is caused by concepts related to *the after life*. And when it comes to Christianity, specifically, threats of Hell are rare and quite vague. Religious leaders did take advantage of Hell and sometimes even justified their most heinous crimes in the name of saving souls from Hell, but I still think Hell was not the drive of this cruelty but rather a lame excuse for someone who was intent on being cruel, anyway.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #144 - August 30, 2011, 04:51 PM
    19:70 says:

    "Then, surely it is We who are most knowing of those most worthy of burning therein."

    This doesn't show apathy -- this shows that God is punishing the disbelievers (who deserve it), and that everyone deserves punishment were it not for the grace of God: (sounds a bit Christian)

    "Then We will save those who feared Allah and leave the wrongdoers within it, on their knees."

    The second verse:

    "So taste [punishment] because you forgot the meeting of this, your Day; indeed, We have [accordingly] forgotten you. And taste the punishment of eternity for what you used to do.""

    I understand why that might sound like God being apathetic, but Tafseer al Jalalayn says:

    { إنا نسيناكم } تركناكم في العذاب

    "We have forgotten you: We have left you to be tortured"

    ... which implies willful, wanton forsaking, rather than genuine apathy.

    The next verse uses similar language (so does Al Jalalayn).

    The last verse:

    "They are those who deny the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of their Lord and the Meeting with Him (in the Hereafter). So their works are in vain, and on the Day of Resurrection, We shall not give them any weight."

    This doesn't imply that God doesn't care about them, but that their deeds are worthless and won't help them go to heaven. Otherwise, why would he be judging them in the first place?

    Again, it doesn't sound like God doesn't care about the kuffaar, but rather that he doesn't care about their plight. It's sort of like:

    [Marquis de Sade torturing a young girl]

    Girl: Why, why do you do this to me?!
    Sade: Because I fucking hate your mom.
    Girl: Oh, it hurts so much!
    Sade: I don't care.
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #145 - August 30, 2011, 04:53 PM
    By the way, according to this:

    "Then, surely it is We who are most knowing of those most worthy of burning therein."

    Would you say I'm worthy of burning in hell?
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #146 - August 30, 2011, 05:10 PM
    Quote from: harakaat on August 30, 2011, 04:51 PM
    <snip>


    it's not 19:70 it's 19:71-72.

    وَإِنْ مِنْكُمْ إِلَّا وَارِدُهَا ۚ كَانَ عَلَىٰ رَبِّكَ حَتْمًا مَقْضِيًّا (71)
     ثُمَّ نُنَجِّي الَّذِينَ اتَّقَوْا وَنَذَرُ الظَّالِمِينَ فِيهَا جِثِيًّا (72)

    and let's not cite Tafseer because Tafseer says so many things *including* what I said. Check Ibn Hazm's opinion in Tafseer Ibn Kathir. Read the verses yourself... they're clear on their own.

    same applies to other verses.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #147 - August 30, 2011, 05:11 PM
    Quote from: harakaat on August 30, 2011, 04:53 PM
    By the way, according to this:

    "Then, surely it is We who are most knowing of those most worthy of burning therein."

    Would you say I'm worthy of burning in hell?


    no, but that's because I'm human, like you; God isn't.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #148 - August 30, 2011, 05:11 PM
    Quote from: debunker on August 30, 2011, 05:10 PM
    it's not 19:70 it's 19:71-72.


    I know, I cited that verse for context.
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #149 - August 30, 2011, 05:12 PM
    Quote from: debunker on August 30, 2011, 05:11 PM
    no, but that's because I'm human, like you, but God isn't.


    LOL, I love that.
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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