5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #180 - August 30, 2011, 08:58 PM

Quote from: debunker on August 30, 2011, 08:56 PM
you get my point though (hopefully?)

Not really; I think it's a false analogy.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #181 - August 30, 2011, 08:59 PM

Quote from: debunker on August 30, 2011, 08:57 PM
when the words of God basically boil down to telling me that I am above morality, then He is *deifying* me.

Well, if God defines morality, then he can define rape and murder to be good.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #182 - August 30, 2011, 08:59 PM

And then ask you to do them.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #183 - August 30, 2011, 09:00 PM

Quote from: Gladfly on August 30, 2011, 08:40 PM
@debunker

Retired?

There is no point to a reply then

I bid you adiue

I love you, fly! Hopefully we will discuss other things unrelated to religion in the near future.

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #184 - August 30, 2011, 09:01 PM

Quote from: harakaat on August 30, 2011, 08:58 PM
Not really; I think it's a false analogy.

explain.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #185 - August 30, 2011, 09:04 PM

Quote from: harakaat on August 30, 2011, 08:59 PM
Well, if God defines morality, then he can define rape and murder to be good.

the point is YOU judge whether the definition of morality by some book can indeed be the words of God or not.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #186 - August 30, 2011, 09:09 PM

A god who asks us to worship him, and then tortures us forever when we don't, is not like someone destroying a colony of ants because they're pests who're harming him.

Therefore, we have the right to judge god, by his own standards, and reach the conclusion that he is immoral.

If there is, say, a sentient sheep, which witnesses a human being wantonly torturing another sheep for not fellating him, then yes, it can judge itself to be morally superior to said human being.

If you say that god is above and beyond morality, that raises a lot of new problems. Why does he impose morality on us? Why do you say he cannot possibly ask us to do immoral things? In that way, you're creating boundaries for god. You're defining the way he can and cannot behave. You are creating a special kind of morality for him.

It's just that you define godly morality as different from human morality.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #187 - August 30, 2011, 09:09 PM

Quote from: debunker on August 30, 2011, 09:04 PM
the point is YOU judge whether the definition of morality by some book can indeed be the words of God or not.

So... you're saying I could find Islamic morality to be severely lacking, and thus conclude that it does not come from God?

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #188 - August 30, 2011, 09:10 PM

Let me ask you this: Can God lie?

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #189 - August 30, 2011, 09:13 PM

Quote from: harakaat on August 30, 2011, 09:09 PM
So... you're saying I could find Islamic morality to be severely lacking, and thus conclude that it does not come from God?

of course!

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #190 - August 30, 2011, 09:16 PM

Quote from: harakaat on August 30, 2011, 09:10 PM
Let me ask you this: Can God lie?

no. nor does He *hate* or has *enemies* or exacts *revenge* or gets *angry*. All of these attributes are not befitting of God and even if they appeared in Quran (hate/anger/revenge/enemies), it's just because of the imperfect vehicle (human language) of delivering His message.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #191 - August 30, 2011, 09:19 PM

Quote from: debunker on August 30, 2011, 09:13 PM
of course!

But then I would be tortured eternally for it -- and I would "deserve" said torture, according to Allah. Which... would probably imply I'm making a terrible mistake.

But earlier you said you thought non-Muslims were not "wrong" not to have chosen Islam.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #192 - August 30, 2011, 09:19 PM

Quote from: debunker on August 30, 2011, 09:16 PM
no. nor does He *hate* or has *enemies* or exacts *revenge* or gets *angry*. All of these attributes are not befitting of God and even if they appeared in Quran (hate/anger/revenge/enemies), it's just because of the imperfect vehicle (human language) of delivering His message.

So Arabic is the not the perfectestestest language ever?

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #193 - August 30, 2011, 09:23 PM

debunker: I won't try to delve further into this storm. However, if you have some post or other written words that explained in depth how you came to arrive at your beliefs about god and the quran, I would be most interested to see it. Just the whole shebang if you will, not just snippets of ideas.

I'm seriously curious about your position. Thank you.

Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
how fuck works without shit??

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #194 - August 30, 2011, 09:28 PM

Quote
A god who asks us to worship him, and then tortures us forever when we don't, is not like someone destroying a colony of ants because they're pests who're harming him.

Therefore, we have the right to judge god, by his own standards, and reach the conclusion that he is immoral.

If there is, say, a sentient sheep, which witnesses a human being wantonly torturing another sheep for not fellating him, then yes, it can judge itself to be morally superior to said human being.

your analogies don't apply becasue God doesn't need our worship (even though He demands it; i believe you know this is what the Quran claims about God), plus, the default is Hell.

Quote
If you say that god is above and beyond morality, that raises a lot of new problems. Why does he impose morality on us? Why do you say he cannot possibly ask us to do immoral things? In that way, you're creating boundaries for god. You're defining the way he can and cannot behave. You are creating a special kind of morality for him.
It's just that you define godly morality as different from human morality.

God does not allow the deification of anyone; that doesn't mean He's limited.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #195 - August 30, 2011, 09:29 PM

Quote from: harakaat on August 30, 2011, 09:19 PM
So Arabic is the not the perfectestestest language ever?

of course not... it's human language.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #196 - August 30, 2011, 09:32 PM

Quote from: harakaat on August 30, 2011, 09:19 PM
But then I would be tortured eternally for it -- and I would "deserve" said torture, according to Allah. Which... would probably imply I'm making a terrible mistake.

But earlier you said you thought non-Muslims were not "wrong" not to have chosen Islam.

clealrly you haven't read the link I posted (the discussion between me and Hassan).

It is utterly pointless to punish someone who *geniunly* believes Islam is false. I think such people would become the Men of the Heights, and they would be subjected to much tougher test than this life (since they already seen the afterlife).

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #197 - August 30, 2011, 09:37 PM

Debunker, what do you think about the idea that the descriptions of paradise and hell in the Qur'an are metaphorical? The Qur'an seems to indicate this in a few places, and 13:35 and 47:15 come to mind, where it describes 'the likeness of the Garden.'
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #198 - August 30, 2011, 09:39 PM

Quote from: asbdsp#J on August 30, 2011, 09:23 PM
debunker: I won't try to delve further into this storm. However, if you have some post or other written words that explained in depth how you came to arrive at your beliefs about god and the quran, I would be most interested to see it. Just the whole shebang if you will, not just snippets of ideas.

I'm seriously curious about your position. Thank you.

well, my thoughts are all over the place, but perhaps the thread where i repeated a lot of what i believe is this one: (ignore the conversation between me and *mount a bison* about Satan's fall)

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=14003.msg388863#msg388863

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #199 - August 30, 2011, 09:42 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on August 30, 2011, 09:37 PM
Debunker, what do you think about the idea that the descriptions of paradise and hell in the Qur'an are metaphorical? The Qur'an seems to indicate this in a few places, and 13:35 and 47:15 come to mind, where it describes 'the likeness of the Garden.'

the Paradise perhaps, but Hell, no way. The description of torture is too *detailed* to be metaphorical. One could make such a claim about the Bible's Hell, but not the Quran's. I'll check he verses you posted.

EDIT: I checked them, and it seems you're basing your argument upon the fact that the verses started with the word: *Mathal*. But this word can mean the *description* (of). So these verses are saying: the description of Paradise (and Hell) is such and such.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #200 - August 30, 2011, 09:46 PM

Quote from: debunker on August 30, 2011, 09:28 PM
your analogies don't apply becasue God doesn't need our worship (even though He demands it; i believe you know this is what the Quran claims about God), plus, the default is Hell.

The human being doesn't need a blowjob either, even though he demands it!

Also, why should the default be Hell? That's a very cruel decision for God to make.

Quote from: debunker on August 30, 2011, 09:28 PM
God does not allow the deification of anyone; that doesn't mean He's limited.

He is limited in that case -- he cannot allow the deification of anyone!

Quote from: debunker on August 30, 2011, 09:29 PM
of course not... it's human language.

HERESY!

Quote from: debunker on August 30, 2011, 09:32 PM
clealrly you haven't read the link I posted (the discussion between me and Hassan).

It is utterly pointless to punish someone who *geniunly* believes Islam is false. I think such people would become the Men of the Heights, and they would be subjected to much tougher test than this life (since they already seen the afterlife).

Yeah, I just finished reading it.

But wait... I don't get this -- don't ALL disbelievers *genuinely* believe Islam is false? Are you saying there are some people who KNOW that Islam is the right religion, but who CHOOSE not to follow it because they're "proud"?

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #201 - August 30, 2011, 09:51 PM

@debunker

Some verses that I find interesting in this regard are 36:8-9:

Indeed, We have put shackles on their necks, and they are to their chins, so they are with heads [kept] aloft. And We have put before them a barrier and behind them a barrier and covered them, so they do not see.

It's quite graphic imagery, but nonetheless, it is allegorical, referring to the obstinate disbelief of the unbelievers.
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #202 - August 30, 2011, 10:04 PM

Quote
Some verses that I find interesting in this regard are 36:8-9:

Indeed, We have put shackles on their necks, and they are to their chins, so they are with heads [kept] aloft. And We have put before them a barrier and behind them a barrier and covered them, so they do not see.

It's quite graphic imagery, but nonetheless, it is allegorical, referring to the obstinate disbelief of the unbelievers.

I agree. This verse, by itself, can sound allegorical, but when you read all verses of torture togeather, there is only one conclusion: Hell is a literal place of torment.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #203 - August 30, 2011, 10:12 PM

Are you an Arab, debunker?

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #204 - August 30, 2011, 10:15 PM

Why are you guys feeding a troll?

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #205 - August 30, 2011, 10:17 PM

fuck off, muddy. Debunker ain't a troll.

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #206 - August 30, 2011, 10:18 PM

Yeah, after all he has lots of posts.

(Yes, this post is in jest)

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #207 - August 30, 2011, 10:18 PM

Quote from: debunker on August 30, 2011, 05:20 PM
LOL! You made me chuckle! So you loathe yeezevee too?

Speak no ill of Yeez. He is doing his best.

Quote
anyway, I was only gauging your personality from the very little you wrote, but so far the more you write the more I become certain about my initial guesses.

Good for you; I wouldn't dream of gauging yours. All I could discern was a beleaguered defender of Allah, who isn't above petty jabs for those whom he appears to think are beneath him. If that is, indeed, your personality in full flow, then so be it.

If the quality of your other posts is what passes for Islamic apologetics, all I will say is that I am heartened.

.. and with that, I'm off this thread.

Before it gets too late, you will find escape.
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #208 - August 30, 2011, 10:21 PM

Quote from: ateapotist on August 30, 2011, 10:17 PM
fuck off, muddy. Debunker ain't a troll.

quran is a book of troll.. Anyone constantly trying to justify its content is automatically a troll.

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #209 - August 30, 2011, 10:22 PM

Quote from: harakaat on August 30, 2011, 09:46 PM
The human being doesn't need a blowjob either, even though he demands it!

oh come on... men need sex.

Quote
Also, why should the default be Hell? That's a very cruel decision for God to make.

i don't know. but wait.... I discussed, in another thread a thought I had about this.... I'll try to look for it and post it here.

Quote
He is limited in that case -- he cannot allow the deification of anyone!

You remind me when someone asked me: *can God outdo Himself?* What do you think of this question?

anyway, how about saying: He could deify men, but He wouldn't.

Quote
HERESY!

Arabic, like any human language, is imperfect and I don't think I ever heard anyone saying it was perfect.

Quote
Yeah, I just finished reading it.

But wait... I don't get this -- don't ALL disbelievers *genuinely* believe Islam is false?

No, not all of them. Threats of Hell *after death* aren't really very effective, nor should they be, otherwise you would have no ability to choose. The Quran says God could send us a sign that can force us to believe, but since this destroys the entire point of giving us free-will (the ability to choose), God won't do it.

Knowing that the threat would materialize in the far, far away future, some time *after I die*, gives me a whole lot of room to do as I wish, including satisfying my pride.

It's the same way we continuously supress the fact that we will die some day in order to ve able to pursue our goals in this life. If someone puts the inevitability of their death in front of their eyes at all times, there would be no point of building a life only to crumble the moment of death.

Quote
Are you saying there are some people who KNOW that Islam is the right religion, but who CHOOSE not to follow it because they're "proud"?

yes, that's what i said above.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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