The problem with Atheism vs Islam debates

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- truth_seeker
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The problem with Atheism vs Islam debates
OP - August 18, 2011, 04:50 AM

I've watched many debates between atheists and Islamists apologists, and the one greatest mistake I always see atheists do in almost every single one of these debates is to walk in unprepared without any knowledge about Islam.

These atheists walk in thinking that all religions are the same, and that they can use the same tactics they used against Christianity and use it against Islam. They have to understand that Islam is an entirely different religion, and some of the points they use against Christians doesn't fit well when it comes to criticising Islam. Plus it doesn't help the atheist by giving examples of why the bible is wrong and has full of contradictions, because the audience is always 90% muslims and they don't believe in the bible.

And speaking about the audience, they also make the mistake of agreeing to debate in front of a vastly muslim-majority audience. Not only does this effect them psychologically, even if the atheist debater made good arguments, these arguments simply are not understood or fell on deaf ears, while the Islamist debater gets clapped and cheered even for giving completely stupid arguments.

Many examples can be found in debates involving Hamza Tzortzis. I keep seeing atheists being humiliated and shamed on his debates, not because Hamza has better arguments, but the atheists are ill-prepared to debate against Islamist apologetist. Hamza keeps throwing a ton of bullshit about Islam yet his atheist opponents can't do anything against him cause they don't know anything about Islam except what's in the media and newspapers. If they could spend at least one whole weak studying Islam, and browse WikiIslam for a bit, then they'd have ample ammunition to shoot down Hamza
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Re: The problem with Atheism vs Islam debates
Reply #1 - August 18, 2011, 05:01 AM

Oh I agree. Their problem is that they do selective reading, and when counterarguments are presented, they really get in trouble. For example, the whole taqiyya thing is blown out of proportion.

Ex muslim atheists and the ones who've studied Islam well, like TheRationalizer, would have really owned them in debates. Too bad that Hamza chickened out from debating him

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Re: The problem with Atheism vs Islam debates
Reply #2 - August 18, 2011, 05:04 AM

And many of them also tend to emphasize on the situation of Islamic countries instead of what their scripture says, which I find really annoying.

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Re: The problem with Atheism vs Islam debates
Reply #3 - August 18, 2011, 05:16 PM

I am dying to see a well versed atheist .... getting down muslim scholar to his knees in a debate

Disbelief doesn't justify getting tortured in eternal hell
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Re: The problem with Atheism vs Islam debates
Reply #4 - August 18, 2011, 05:17 PM

i think the only debate i've seen so far where the atheist side manages to get a 'decisive victory' is the one between Sami Zataari (a famous youtube Islamist apologist) and SkyDivePhil. But even then it doesn't really count because Sami Zataari is a moron.
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Re: The problem with Atheism vs Islam debates
Reply #5 - August 18, 2011, 05:33 PM

Quote from: kartoos on August 18, 2011, 05:16 PM
I am dying to see a well versed atheist .... getting down muslim scholar to his knees in a debate

I've debated several in Leeds/Beeston and Bradford publicly. It was quite unanimous from the viewers that I had won; Even the muslims were barely golf-clapping infavor of my competition (Pretty obvious they had never even heard an atheistic argument before that day as I blew every one of his arguments out of the water and never received a response argument on any of the points. It was literally laughable to the audience on several occasions).
I may have another one soon, although this one will probably be with one of the local priests on Christianity/ O.T, but thats only because its quite passive and they don't tend to reject everything said like the muslims do.
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Re: The problem with Atheism vs Islam debates
Reply #6 - August 18, 2011, 05:54 PM

Quote from: mighty_cats on August 18, 2011, 05:33 PM
I've debated several in Leeds/Beeston and Bradford publicly. It was quite unanimous from the viewers that I had won; Even the muslims were barely golf-clapping infavor of my competition (Pretty obvious they had never even heard an atheistic argument before that day as I blew every one of his arguments out of the water and never received a response argument on any of the points. It was literally laughable to the audience on several occasions).
I may have another one soon, although this one will probably be with one of the local priests on Christianity/ O.T, but thats only because its quite passive and they don't tend to reject everything said like the muslims do.

do you have any of these on video online? i would like to watch them.
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Re: The problem with Atheism vs Islam debates
Reply #7 - August 18, 2011, 06:56 PM

Sam Harris n Christopher Hitchens are knowledgeable on islam. Hitchens defeated Tariq Ramadan & Sam Harris has also defeated Reza Aslan.
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Re: The problem with Atheism vs Islam debates
Reply #8 - August 18, 2011, 07:20 PM

can you show me this vid where hitchens beat tariq?

btw, i've only seen a few parts of the debate between sam harris and reza, and each side seem equal.
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Re: The problem with Atheism vs Islam debates
Reply #9 - August 18, 2011, 07:22 PM

^^ it's called 'is islam a religion of peace'

type in 'hitchens ramadan' into utube u ull find it
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Re: The problem with Atheism vs Islam debates
Reply #10 - August 18, 2011, 07:28 PM

Quote from: truth_seeker on August 18, 2011, 04:50 AM
I've watched many debates between atheists and Islamists apologists, and the one greatest mistake I always see atheists do in almost every single one of these debates is to walk in unprepared without any knowledge about Islam.

These atheists walk in thinking that all religions are the same, and that they can use the same tactics they used against Christianity and use it against Islam. They have to understand that Islam is an entirely different religion, and some of the points they use against Christians doesn't fit well when it comes to criticising Islam. Plus it doesn't help the atheist by giving examples of why the bible is wrong and has full of contradictions, because the audience is always 90% muslims and they don't believe in the bible.

And speaking about the audience, they also make the mistake of agreeing to debate in front of a vastly muslim-majority audience. Not only does this effect them psychologically, even if the atheist debater made good arguments, these arguments simply are not understood or fell on deaf ears, while the Islamist debater gets clapped and cheered even for giving completely stupid arguments.

Many examples can be found in debates involving Hamza Tzortzis. I keep seeing atheists being humiliated and shamed on his debates, not because Hamza has better arguments, but the atheists are ill-prepared to debate against Islamist apologetist. Hamza keeps throwing a ton of bullshit about Islam yet his atheist opponents can't do anything against him cause they don't know anything about Islam except what's in the media and newspapers. If they could spend at least one whole weak studying Islam, and browse WikiIslam for a bit, then they'd have ample ammunition to shoot down Hamza

Very well said!
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Re: The problem with Atheism vs Islam debates
Reply #11 - August 18, 2011, 07:44 PM

I would ask for the documentary evidence that Muhammad existed and that the Qur'an was compiled in the 7th century.
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Re: The problem with Atheism vs Islam debates
Reply #12 - August 18, 2011, 07:58 PM

Quote from: truth_seeker on August 18, 2011, 04:50 AM
I've watched many debates between atheists and Islamists apologists, and the one greatest mistake I always see atheists do in almost every single one of these debates is to walk in unprepared without any knowledge about Islam.

IMO, if one knows Islam at all, one should never try to start a debate with Muslim believers. It's no use at all.

Religion is organized superstition
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Re: The problem with Atheism vs Islam debates
Reply #13 - August 18, 2011, 08:16 PM

I think it's of use. Just getting people to think is of use.

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Re: The problem with Atheism vs Islam debates
Reply #14 - August 18, 2011, 08:25 PM

You're an optimist. Stay like that. Maybe I'm a bit cynical....

Religion is organized superstition
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Re: The problem with Atheism vs Islam debates
Reply #15 - August 18, 2011, 08:42 PM

I do think that some Muslims are beginning to do their own research about the history of Islam and are finding that what they have been told doesn't add up, especially when they look at the evidence. Some then retreat into 'Qur'an only' thinking but when that small seed of doubt has been sown and the facts and the truth come to light, if someone's brave enough, they can change. Presumably you guys who are ex-Muslims did that? What convinced you that Islam isn't the word of a divine being?
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Re: The problem with Atheism vs Islam debates
Reply #16 - August 18, 2011, 09:27 PM

I agree, it would be great to have more the rationalizer types who would debate Hamza with knowledge about Islam.

I don't think it matters if they argue in front of zealot muslim audiences, there will be people present who are on the fence (and people online watching it), and those are the people who a debate is primarily for.

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: The problem with Atheism vs Islam debates
Reply #17 - August 19, 2011, 07:33 AM

But that's my point - people [atheists] who say they have 'knowledge' of Islam may be familiar with ahadith, the language of the 7th century etc, the ACCEPTED history, but they are arguing with flawed materials so of course they can't debate successfully. Muhammad was born in 570... says who? Bring the proof of the events that are supposed to have taken place in his life, of the people who were supposed to have been around him, for the location of Mecca, for the Constitution of Medina, for the Topkapi Qur'an....
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Re: The problem with Atheism vs Islam debates
Reply #18 - August 19, 2011, 09:49 AM

i informaly debate muslims often, but I dont know Arabic, and at the end of the day, they can, and will rely on this to get out of jail free. Even if I did know Arabic, there would be some other excuse. You can never pin a muslim down.
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Re: The problem with Atheism vs Islam debates
Reply #19 - August 19, 2011, 10:51 AM

IMO all you can hope to do is undermine as many sub-beliefs propping up their belief in Islam as possible. As long as you undermine the sub-belief so that the possibility that Islam isn't 'the truth' seems more reasonable, you've done enough.

This vid mirrors my experience of deconverting, and probably many others ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQJrud71gL8

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: The problem with Atheism vs Islam debates
Reply #20 - August 19, 2011, 10:56 AM

Quote from: mighty_cats on August 18, 2011, 05:33 PM

I may have another one soon, although this one will probably be with one of the local priests on Christianity/ O.T, but thats only because its quite passive and they don't tend to reject everything said like the muslims do.

Well, if you get any more vs muslims in the Bradford/Leeds area then please let me know: I live close by and would love to see that.
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Re: The problem with Atheism vs Islam debates
Reply #21 - August 19, 2011, 11:24 AM

Quote from: mighty_cats on August 18, 2011, 05:33 PM
I've debated several in Leeds/Beeston and Bradford publicly. It was quite unanimous from the viewers that I had won; Even the muslims were barely golf-clapping infavor of my competition

Mighty, are you interested in holding skype debates between yourself and dawahghandists on youtube? Like dawahfilms, dawahworks, etc.

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: The problem with Atheism vs Islam debates
Reply #22 - May 15, 2012, 10:05 AM

I need to add something here that might be related to the topic. I'm not sure it's come up in debates between atheists and Muslims but it's certainly written about in the more philosophical books on theism.

This is something that atheist philosophers see as one of the most powerful arguments against the existence of God and theologians have written volumes trying to give an adequate explanation of this. In the west it is known as the "Problem of Evil" or the "Problem of Suffering". I'm sure most of you are familiar with this? It's been a bit of a bug bear certainly for Christian theologians throughout the ages. I'm not sure whether Jewish theologians have dealt with it or even if it's seen as an issue for them. But in my humble opinion, I don't think Muslims need worry about this problem too much.

The problem of evil is divided into two parts or rather there are two formulations of it. The first one is known as the "Logical Problem of Evil" and the second one is the "Evidential Problem of Evil". Basically the first one says that the following two statements can't co-exist.

a- God Exists
b- Evil exists

The philosopher maintains that one of these statements is false. In effect, the second premise can be known empirically and is manifest and this over throws the first premise. There needs to be something else added to the first premise in order to make it clear. It is here in the premise that the problem manifests itself.

In western theology, God is defined as Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnibenevolent. Certainly if Christianity is taken as a paradigm case of theism then the attributes above are certainly true. For the Christian theologian he needs to show that the existence of evil in the world can co-exist with the existence of God and the attributes that he is defined by. The philosopher says that one of those attributes has to go. The theologian cannot afford to amend the first premise, so he has to grapple with the second premise by offering what is called a theodicy or a defense. I won't go into any detail about the types of maneuvers that the theologians have deployed in order to demonstrate that the two premises can co-exist. I will just give the names of a couple. The most popular one is known as the "freewill defense" and the other one is known as the "soul making defense". They are used mainly by the theologians Alvin Plantinga and John Hick respectively. There are many papers written on the defense and critique of these which I won't go into here.

Turning to the "Evidential problem". This one rather than examining the statements as in the attack above looks at the problem empirically and says that the amount of evil and suffering in all ages is way too much to justify the existence of God. Particularly if He is defined with the above attributes. This suffering doesn't just mean human suffering but also takes into account the suffering of all sentient creatures. The type of suffering is also taken into account. This suffering can be divided into two. The first is moral evil/suffering and the second is natural suffering/evil. Again the theologian needs to put up an adequate defense to show why the suffering is justified and indeed why it's even needed. This has to be done whilst maintaining the attributes.

Let me now turn to the Muslim response or the maneuver the Muslim theologian can make and I think the defense is pretty straight forward and also shows why when I read the literature by the atheist philosophers, they have not successfully deployed their argument against the Muslims.

What these philosophers have ignored is even if it's given that the Jews, Christians and Muslims believe (in theory) in the same God. The Muslims have a rather different concept with how God acts in the world. The problem lies in the very first premise as defined by the atheist. Certainly, God is Omnipotent and Omniscient but is He also just Omnibenevolent or is there more to him? What the atheist philosophers seem to forget is that Allah (God) has ninety-nine attributes, which gives the Muslim plenty of room for a defense. Just think of the other attributes that are tied in. Any of which can either be added in the premise or even replace one of the words in the premise. Let me list some of those attributes:-

The Subduer
The Giver of Dishonour
The Bringer of Judgment
The Destroyer, The Bringer of Death
The Avenger
The Distressor, The Harmer, The Afflictor

Now, I think that Omnibenevolent can be replaced by whichever attribute fits the context in question and hence the Muslim theologian escapes from formulating a theodicy or defense. Thus driving the philosopher back to the drawing board. I think here the Muslim has a better defense if those attributes are deployed. As always, I am open to an additions or omissions to what I have said above. If I have been too hasty then please point it out.
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Re: The problem with Atheism vs Islam debates
Reply #23 - May 15, 2012, 10:45 AM

Who do the attributes of Allah sound like the names of tarot cards?

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

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Re: The problem with Atheism vs Islam debates
Reply #24 - May 15, 2012, 10:52 AM

It becomes a problem for them if you argue on the basis that Islam promotes a tyrannical, cruel God on that basis.

Generally speaking, the idea of a benign God that accords with our arrived upon world view is the standard morally speaking - at least in broadly liberal, secularly inclined democracies.

We say, how can a God that is omnipotent allow suffering to occur, children to be molested and murdered, families to be wiped out in tsunamis, and so on and so forth. To say nothing of those injunctions directly sanctioning cruelty produced in the name of Islam. If he does allow these things to occur he is cruel and tyrannical, or he just doesn't care enough for his 'creation'.

Muslims can say, yes, he is all these things, we have always believed that.

In that way, they snooker themselves.

This is why broadly liberal, secular, free thinking cultures are the most frightening thing Islam has encountered.

If it was simply a question of who shouts louder when it comes to the Sky Daddy God, who can be more coercive, who can scream and declaim, who has the biggest sword both literally and metaphorically, Islam thinks it can compete with surety - because it is coercive, aggressive, and supremacist in that mode. After all, it developed the fantasy that everyone who ever lived was a Muslim - Jesus, Moses. Just another strategy for that end.

How do you deal with secular, liberal, free thinking democracy in that sense? When do Muslims start claiming that Spinoza, Voltaire, Mill et al were in actual fact Muslims?

(Dangerous ground here - they all lived after Mo so they are ham strung! Nobody can come after the seal, remember!)

Seriously, they're snookered.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: The problem with Atheism vs Islam debates
Reply #25 - May 15, 2012, 10:55 AM

By the way, the 99 problems but a bitch ain't one attributes of Allah.

I remember learning about Hindu cosmology after reading that quote by Robert Oppenheimer who was the scientist who led the creation of the American nuclear bomb. He quoted from the Bhagavad Gita the Hindu god Shiva who said 'Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds'

In Hindu mythology God has many attributes embodied in different avatars - Shiva is the creator and the destroyer, and so on and so forth.

99 ain't even that much.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: The problem with Atheism vs Islam debates
Reply #26 - May 15, 2012, 11:06 AM

Quote from: moi on May 15, 2012, 10:45 AM
Who do the attributes of Allah sound like the names of tarot cards?

LOL! Yes they do. Nevertheless, Muslims can deploy what I have stated in order to escape the argument or to partly diffuse it.
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Re: The problem with Atheism vs Islam debates
Reply #27 - May 15, 2012, 11:13 AM

Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on May 15, 2012, 10:05 AM
What these philosophers have ignored is even if it's given that the Jews, Christians and Muslims believe (in theory) in the same God. The Muslims have a rather different concept with how God acts in the world. The problem lies in the very first premise as defined by the atheist. Certainly, God is Omnipotent and Omniscient but is He also just Omnibenevolent or is there more to him? What the atheist philosophers seem to forget is that Allah (God) has ninety-nine attributes, which gives the Muslim plenty of room for a defense. Just think of the other attributes that are tied in. Any of which can either be added in the premise or even replace one of the words in the premise. Let me list some of those attributes:-

The Subduer
The Giver of Dishonour
The Bringer of Judgment
The Destroyer, The Bringer of Death
The Avenger
The Distressor, The Harmer, The Afflictor

Now, I think that Omnibenevolent can be replaced by whichever attribute fits the context in question and hence the Muslim theologian escapes from formulating a theodicy or defense. Thus driving the philosopher back to the drawing board. I think here the Muslim has a better defense if those attributes are deployed. As always, I am open to an additions or omissions to what I have said above. If I have been too hasty then please point it out.

Sure, Josef Fritzl imprisoned his daughter in a specially made basement dungeon where he tortured and raped her continuously for 24 years, but he loved his mum! So you can't say he's a bad person!

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Re: The problem with Atheism vs Islam debates
Reply #28 - May 15, 2012, 11:37 AM

Thats true Ishina. Omar was describing the method of apologetics that Muslims can employ in this realm - its good to be aware of them all the better to work on checkmating them.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: The problem with Atheism vs Islam debates
Reply #29 - May 15, 2012, 12:01 PM

Yah, that's just what it sounds like to me when I hear a Muslim say it.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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