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Theme Changer

 Topic: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'

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  • Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
     OP - August 21, 2011, 01:58 PM

    Hi, I'm a male, British-born Pakistani Apostate now aged 18 living in England. Sorry if my "Intro post" is too long, but I feel it is the only way to accuratley depict my journey to agnosticism.

    NB: Much of what is found below was written soon after my apostasy and the emotions which are expressed are indicative of my mentality then and some of it isn't relevant to my beliefs today - I will add a short paragraph to the end which describes changes in my beliefs since it was written.

    I was never a Muslim who practiced the religion in it's entirety, although I did believe in Islam's validity - there wasn't even a spec of doubt in my mind. However, as alot of youths do, I observed the behaviour of those older than me and emulated it. I even lost my virginity when I was 15 to a Muslim girl I met at a party. I continued to have sex and experiment with drugs and fornication throughout my teenage years. I didn't try to reconcile my behaviour with the religion, I acknowledged that it was sinful, but I didn't really let those contradictions with my Islamic beliefs upset me too much - no one is perfect.

    My world changed when I turned 17 and was half way through my first year at college - with aspirations of studying medicine at uni. I had always defended Islam staunchly, be it in person or on numerous forums and looked for material to defend the morality of my religion at every turn. The idea that atheists, would have the audacity to question my faith was due to their ignorance and not mine. They were just hateful bigots who didn’t understand and couldn’t tolerate people having different beliefs. I likened it to the way people laugh at Hindu’s for having numerous God’s; it was a just a way of venting frustration at something they can't comprehend because they hadn’t lived a life as a Muslim and had never read into Islam searching for the truth. I was following the true path though. My knowledge of Islam was limited, however. It consisted of Arabic classes (a language I don't understand) in the Masjid, listening to clerics give interpretations and quote selected verses of the Q'uran in speeches. I had never actually read the book, cover to cover itself. Then I came upon the realisation that if my path was true and righteous then why was I only practicing half of my faith? I didn't pray five times a day, I listened to music, watched porn, smoked weed, fornicated and got in to fights all the time. To be a true Muslim I would have to practice it all and to its full extent or I would be a hypocrite. I would look at my parent’s hypocrisy and it would drive me insane. They would preach about how I should be a good Muslim even though they never taught me the Q’uran; they barely prayed - maybe a Friday here or there, during Rouzeh (Ramadhan) or another religious festival. I wasn’t going to be them I was going to live for the sake of Allah and inherit Jannah. After all when I look back it will feel like a day whilst I live in paradise with all my desires fulfilled. More importantly if I didn't I would burn in hell forever - there is nothing more frightening than an eternity in pain.

    In order to be this observant Muslim I imagined the changes I would have to make of myself. I would have to wear the Islamic dress which included the salwar kameeze, a fistful of beard and everything else. I had to guard my modesty whilst respecting other people’s modesty; I had to lower my gaze when females were around; I could never have an intimate moment with a female until marriage; no dancing as this is provocative; no TV; no music as these are all haram and apart of Satan’s temptations. Most frighteningly, I would have to fight against injustice. Ultimately I must live a life enjoying the good and forbidding the evil.

    Of course then I had to list exactly what had to be given up in my head; all the things I could never experiment with or enjoy. The more I thought about it the more I realised there was so much I was giving up, I hated this, I wanted to have fun; I wanted the Western lifestyle which looked, oh so, appealing: partying, drugs, alcohol, sex and fighting. This was the life that we all want to live, free from obligations and without restrictions on our behaviour. I would make little successions to myself like I will live that life until I get older and then I will follow Islam properly. Or I would try it once and never again. Immediately afterwards I would apologise to Allah in a prayer, “I didn’t mean it, my mind drifted... forgive me.” Then it hit me that I don't really know what Islam commands of me because of my limited understanding. I would have to study Islam and the scriptures to discover this. I recall just remembering the question of “How do you know your religion is true?” – it was almost like an echo in my brain that I couldn’t silence. This combined with not having a proper understanding of Islam led me to the conclusion that I don't know. Eventually I began to wonder whether reading the Q’uran in it's entirety could even change my mind. I  began to consider that Islam could be just another fairytale that people were once gullible enough to believe. So many religions have come and I believed they were all fabricated. So why would Islam be any different?

    This point in my life led to me to questions I have never had to face before. Before my purpose in existence was that God put me on this earth to be his slave and do as he willed and to avoid sins to enough of an extent that I could enter paradise. Now I had to begin questioning the purpose of my existence, my morality – and where I would derive my morality from. I questioned who should I have any loyalty or affinity to, other than myself. This made me hate those who made me question my religion, I despised them, they gave me a life without meaning, without purpose. I used to do so many things because I was obliged to – because it was my deen. I used to respect and revere my mother because “paradise lies at your mother’s feet” but now that paradise doesn’t exist - who cares? So what if my mom was gullible enough to believe this fairytale of me being a Gift from God so she must look after me. I don’t believe in it so why should I give a damn about her, she can make me my supper, wake me up when I have places to be, do errands for me all day long but I have no obligation to help her or return the favour. I don’t care about anything other than my own satisfaction. Murder, rape & theft have no negative connotations in my mind or at least they shouldn’t theoretically. However, when I hear a woman tell the story of her rape I still cry and am outraged by the injustice. I guess it’s probably just the social conditioning of being brought up in a supposedly Islamic family which has still remained so far in my life. I was taught that rape was abhorrent and would warrant the death penalty so of course I would cry at the emotive description of such an event.

    This is where I am left today I don’t care about anything, I don’t care about my previous causes which I devoted so much of my time to, I don’t care about the Palestinians, I don’t give a damn about starving Africans or Pakistani’s dying in floods. Couldn't care less about the poor or the orphans. Not one of these things directly affects me and my happiness. Even as I look over at my father whilst I am typing this I can see him so knackered and having a nap from working hard for hours on end to support me and my family. Yet I still don’t have any affinity to him or any obligation to do right by him. I don’t know how disbeliever’s can live this life and how they can pretend to care about other’s or is it social conditioning, are they simply expressing a trait which they think other’s would find desirable?

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I no longer find myself in that state of apathy which was mentioned in the last paragraph (it took about a year to reach this stage). Although, I still don't know where I derive morality from (probably a result of socialisation) I do have a sense of right and wrong without religion. I am now comfortable with being a non-Muslim and I don't despise the apostasy anymore - in fact I am almost grateful for it.

    What do I hope to get out of this site?
    Just to further my knowledge of Islam really. I recognise that there is going to come a time when I have to 'come out' about my apostasy to my parents and siblings - probably when I marry a non-Muslim. I want it to come from an intellectual place as opposed to simply ignorance of Islam. I have begun reading the Q'uran in it's entirety and I plan to investigate any claims that suggest Islam is valid such as the famous 'scientific miracles.'
  • Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
     Reply #1 - August 21, 2011, 02:04 PM

    Never had the opportunity to welcome anybody first, so here is your welcome  parrot I am sure you will find lots of reading material on this site
  • Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
     Reply #2 - August 21, 2011, 02:09 PM

    Hai!

    Didn't I already welcome you? :/  Huh?

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
     Reply #3 - August 21, 2011, 02:14 PM

    ^^^ Good memory, you did in the 'Ramadan Excuses thread'
  • Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
     Reply #4 - August 21, 2011, 02:19 PM

    Welcome!  parrot

    Religion is organized superstition
  • Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
     Reply #5 - August 21, 2011, 03:34 PM

    I never had the urge to do drugs, sex and rock-n-roll and fighting - the western way of life as you call it - and I did not fall to the kind of apathy you had - but still belief slowly left me...though I had tried my best to keep hold of it...in the end it went...and without much fanfare...

    But welcome :-)

    Little Fly, Thy summer's play
    My thoughtless hand has brushed away.

    I too dance and drink, and sing,
    Till some blind hand shall brush my wing.

    Therefore I am a happy fly,
    If I live or if I die.
  • Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
     Reply #6 - August 21, 2011, 09:15 PM

    I never had the urge to do drugs, sex and rock-n-roll and fighting - the western way of life as you call it - and I did not fall to the kind of apathy you had - but still belief slowly left me...though I had tried my best to keep hold of it...in the end it went...and without much fanfare...

    But welcome :-)


    You never questioned the whole concept of morality when leaving Islam? That's sounds strange to me, I would have thought every apostate would have to. Did you just go on instinct to decipher what was moral or not?
  • Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
     Reply #7 - August 21, 2011, 09:32 PM

    Quote
    You never questioned the whole concept of morality when leaving Islam? That's sounds strange to me, I would have thought every apostate would have to. Did you just go on instinct to decipher what was moral or not?



    No. I never had the urge to hurt, maim or steal or murder anyone.

    There is nothing strange it about.

    People are good without religious morality.

    Some people can be evil with religious morality.








    Little Fly, Thy summer's play
    My thoughtless hand has brushed away.

    I too dance and drink, and sing,
    Till some blind hand shall brush my wing.

    Therefore I am a happy fly,
    If I live or if I die.
  • Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
     Reply #8 - August 21, 2011, 09:36 PM

    Welcome theLeader Smiley
  • Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
     Reply #9 - August 21, 2011, 09:55 PM


    No. I never had the urge to hurt, maim or steal or murder anyone.

    There is nothing strange it about.


    I am not saying that apostasy will make an individual desire harmful or anti-social things. I am just saying that Islam has a set of morals that can be derived from the scripture. Haven't you ever wondered why you should or should not do certain things? I'll offer an example to illustrate my point. There are millions of Somalians starving right now, why should you do anything to ease their suffering? (I'm presuming that you believe that giving to charity is a moral action)

    People are good without religious morality.

    Some people can be evil with religious morality.


    I understand that with or without religion, individuals can be 'evil' or 'good.' I am not claiming that religious people have superior morals. I am only saying that they have a clear place to derive morality from (at least the Abrahamic ones do).
  • Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
     Reply #10 - August 21, 2011, 10:05 PM

    Quote
    There are millions of Somalians starving right now, why should you do anything to ease their suffering?


    Because we instinctively empathize with suffering of other human beings. It's our natural response to help others.


    Quote
    I understand that with or without religion, individuals can be 'evil' or 'good.' I am not claiming that religious people have superior morals. I am only saying that they have a clear place to derive morality from (at least the Abrahamic ones do).


    We did not get morality from religious books.  Morality is a built in mechanism for our survival and predates language and religion...


    Little Fly, Thy summer's play
    My thoughtless hand has brushed away.

    I too dance and drink, and sing,
    Till some blind hand shall brush my wing.

    Therefore I am a happy fly,
    If I live or if I die.
  • Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
     Reply #11 - August 21, 2011, 10:07 PM

    You have obviously learned that most morality (not all) is not derived from any religion. Good! Now, use your natural morality to do good in this world. And BTW, your avatar looks agressive, and your forum name is (in my opinion) ridiculous. All of us will make out who's TheLeader.... and you're not.

    Religion is organized superstition
  • Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
     Reply #12 - August 21, 2011, 10:14 PM

    Because we instinctively empathize with suffering of other human beings. It's our natural response to help others.


    That might be your instinct, but this isn't something that everyone shares. There are those who argue that it's moral to leave their fate to natural selection.

    We did not get morality from religious books.  Morality is a built in mechanism for our survival and predates language and religion...


    Is it? Why does our idea of morality differ so radically based on the society we are born in to? Is it not possible that morality is a social construct as opposed to something that we all inherently possess?
  • Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
     Reply #13 - August 21, 2011, 10:18 PM

    And BTW, your avatar looks agressive,


    My avatar is of Sugar Ray Robinson - my favourite athlete

    and your forum name is (in my opinion) ridiculous. All of us will make out who's TheLeader.... and you're not.


     Cheesy It's just a username.
  • Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
     Reply #14 - August 21, 2011, 10:28 PM

    That might be your instinct, but this isn't something that everyone shares.


    That's that instinct of the human species as whole. This is what evidence shows. Religions (and ideologies) pervert this instinct.


    Quote
    Is it? Why does our idea of morality differ so radically based on the society we are born in to? Is it not possible that morality is a social construct as opposed to something that we all inherently possess?


    How does it differ?

    All human societies abhors murder and theft.







    Little Fly, Thy summer's play
    My thoughtless hand has brushed away.

    I too dance and drink, and sing,
    Till some blind hand shall brush my wing.

    Therefore I am a happy fly,
    If I live or if I die.
  • Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
     Reply #15 - August 21, 2011, 10:38 PM

    That's that instinct of the human species as whole. This is what evidence shows. Religions (and ideologies) pervert this instinct.


    Can you present this evidence please?

    How does it differ?

    All human societies abhors murder and theft.


    Sadists do not abhor torture or murder, in fact they desire it. Theft has been historically justified in many societies (pirates etc.)

    Bestiality is considered to be immoral in the UK, yet it is an accepted phenomenon in places like Columbia where having sex with donkeys is even encouraged.

    Morality is what our society chooses it to be.
  • Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
     Reply #16 - August 22, 2011, 12:01 AM

    Welcome to the forums TheLeader, have a rabbit!  bunny

    You will find that this is one of the better places to learn about Islam, as it doesn't have the extreme agendas of many other sites. As far as any miraculous content in the Quran, well don't worry about it too much, its all man-made bullshit. Have fun here, and feel free to join in on the conversations!  Afro

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
     Reply #17 - August 22, 2011, 01:45 AM

    Many muslims make the comment that without islam where does one draw morality from? This is a foolish question since the so called morality in the quran is not so moral. For example-

    Islam promotes male promiscuity
    islam forces women into subjugation and inferiority
    Islam asserts women are intellectually inferior, islam forces that women must be taken care of by men due to their weakness- this is highly foolish considering that men, as a whole, are not magnanimous and caring beings
    islam blames women for rape and removes accountability for men asserting that any woman who allows herself to be seen is just asking for rape!
    Isalm permits child (female) marriage and sex with pre pubescent girls- the penalty for fucking a child and damaging her is that the male must take care of her financially though she's not regarded as one of his 4 allowed wives! How abhorrant!
    Islam permits slavery- POWs
    Islam permits rape- sex with slaves!

    Religion is man made, this is something you have come to realise, yet you are confused how humans can be moral without islam, when the so called morals of islam are man made- this is illogical
    Morality is flexible- it changes as understanding increases, as humans develop.

    Morality is not black and white. Promiscuity was once dangerous due to STDs, but with the advance of science we can avoid this with adequate protection. Sexual monogamy can lead to a bond, an affinity with a special someone which many prefer, but some people are quite happy being promiscuous and also having open relationships. In this regard some aspects of morality are more personal preferance than absolute truths

    Murder, theft, rape, paedophilia- these are all acts that affect another. These acts cause harm or loss to another. This is why they are wrong. You can choose what you wish for yourself but you have no right to affect others who don't choose what you choose.

    I was thinking about poverty today after I saw an ad telling me to 'save the children'- this ad urges donations so 'no child has to die'- it made me think- what would happen if we did in fact save all the children and fed all the starving people etc? The result would be illogical- the earth can only sustain a certain number of individuals. in the animal kingdom a species will flourish then there will come a point where there aren't enough resources to support them all so some will die from starvation. Over crowding also increases infections so some will die- in this way over time equilibrium will be achieved. So in a way saving people seems rather foolish, but on the other hand the reason people are starving is because some of us humans want too much, waste food, dominate, etc- basically we take more than what we need. In this way it seems right to give a little back.

    Anyway, what I'm trying to illustrate is that morality is a fallacy, there is no absolute right or wrong. In the case of starving people the logical thing to do would be to limit birth worldwide by means of contraception and/or abortion- allowing people to breed freely is inevitably going to lead to poverty and starvation. Yet doing this would be regarded as immoral as it removes the rights of people to breed. This sort of argument can be applied to almost any aspect of morality.

    I believe it's important to put aside worldwide issues and instead think of your own personal morality- what is good for you that doesn't harm others- so no murder/rape/paedophilia  finmad

    Will you be happy drinking excessively, doing drugs, partying all night every night? Will this lead to a good future? Can you hold down a job/get an education with this sort of behaviour?

    Are you happy sleeping around? Will you be able to connect with anyone this way? If you find a person you do connect with and wish to continue sleeping around (open relationship) will you be happy to know your partner does the same? When you love someone you don't want them to be intimate with another for various reasons, so is it fair that you allow yourself this and not your partner?

  • Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
     Reply #18 - August 22, 2011, 02:07 AM

    hello theleader!  

    Actually for me, leaving islam was liberating in the sense I no longer felt
    jaded helping others.  I could do so because I WANTED to, not because I
    HAD to, or do it for jannah points.  

    yeah, some struggle more than others regarding apostacy, and I hope you
    find your transition smooth, and lots of support here.

    So here is a little welcome jinn for ya! ghost  lol

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
     Reply #19 - August 22, 2011, 07:52 AM

    The journey out of any religion is hard and for most people the initial stages are very stressful with lots of doubts and questions. This is natural and normal since your whole life you have been told one thing and now you are realising that the very foundations of your identity and beliefs are crumbling down.
    Losing your faith is like losing a loved one or finding out your partner has been cheating on you. There is a whole range of emotions - shock, denial, anger, despair etc... and eventually - acceptance and letting go. Everyone is affected differently.
    You are very wise to decide to research more - critical thinking is very important. There are many knowledgable people on this forum and there are some great threads (you might have to do a bit of digging) so I hope that you will find the answers you are looking for.
    You don't have to rush! Take your time - something as important as spirituality should be undertaken at a pace that you feel comfortable. You've got your whole life ahead of you.

    Welcome by the way  Smiley

  • Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
     Reply #20 - August 22, 2011, 11:43 AM

    Duce! Duce! Duce!

    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
     Reply #21 - August 22, 2011, 12:44 PM

    There are millions of Somalians starving right now, why should you do anything to ease their suffering? (I'm presuming that you believe that giving to charity is a moral action.

    It's a very complex moral dilemma that people evade by putting a pound in the collection box.

    Quite apart from the smug paternalism of Western aid-giving, aid can allow societies not to face up to their problems.

    Somalia needs to stop fighting, stop FGM, stop having so many babies and start planting trees to stop further desertification.

    An airlift of rice isn't going to sort this.

    Leader, I suspect your moral compass is as finely-tuned as anyone's, but that your bullshit detector is turned up to the max. No harm in that as long as you don't harm others.
  • Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
     Reply #22 - August 22, 2011, 01:29 PM

    Welcome,

    I was briefly into philosophy years before I left Islam so I understood how people can derive models of morality without religion.

    Evolution explains the foundation of altruism and empathy, our species has survived successfully because we are inclined to group-identity, inclined to care for our 'groups' chances of survival and flourishing, and caring for our offspring.

    As Thunderfoot put it so eloquently; if our rate of death exceeds our rate of birth we'd become extinct. Basically empathy is essential to the survival of our species - which is probably the reason why you cry when people describe being raped.

    I'm glad that you're ability to care about the well-being of your human beings is still intact, in contrast to born sociopaths. Their neurology is different from the general population - they don't seem to have the ability to empathize, or feel significant emotional reactions,.

    So evolution can explain our 'inherent moral compass', and we can derive more complex models of morality using reason.

    Check these vids out;

    How a christian came to believe that morality was independent of God

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNWqvEIcJpo

    A short intro on how to derive models of morality using reason.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7xt5LtgsxQ

  • Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
     Reply #23 - August 22, 2011, 01:52 PM

    Welcome.

    lost my virginity when I was 15 to a Muslim girl I met at a party. I continued to have sex and experiment with drugs and fornication throughout my teenage years.

    And your complaint is?

    Yeah an I am super ugly, I can't even beat my chest am too skinny and when I roaaar to attract women, they laugh at me, because it sounds like a girl screaming. I can't even attract any bitches!  Cry

  • Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
     Reply #24 - August 22, 2011, 02:09 PM

    sup

    Started from the bottom, now I'm here
    Started from the bottom, now my whole extended family's here

    JOIN THE CHAT
  • Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
     Reply #25 - August 22, 2011, 02:33 PM

    ^ Hey bayby

    Yeah an I am super ugly, I can't even beat my chest am too skinny and when I roaaar to attract women, they laugh at me, because it sounds like a girl screaming. I can't even attract any bitches!  Cry

  • Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
     Reply #26 - August 22, 2011, 02:36 PM

    ^ waaaazzzzuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuupppp

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL_qGMfbtAk

    Started from the bottom, now I'm here
    Started from the bottom, now my whole extended family's here

    JOIN THE CHAT
  • Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
     Reply #27 - August 22, 2011, 02:38 PM

    strangedude.. great vids!   Afro

    TheLeader... you also may be surprised at the number of ex muslims
    who still dont drink, dont party, still dress modestly, and still have high
    moral values.  We just dont let religion dictate those things
    to us any longer.  

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
     Reply #28 - August 22, 2011, 03:33 PM

    Welcome.
    And your complaint is?


    Don't have one .... best 30 Seconds of my life Grin
  • Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
     Reply #29 - August 22, 2011, 03:34 PM

    tell us more

    Yeah an I am super ugly, I can't even beat my chest am too skinny and when I roaaar to attract women, they laugh at me, because it sounds like a girl screaming. I can't even attract any bitches!  Cry

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