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 Topic: how should you respond to the particularly dumb proofs of the quran's miracle

 (Read 15370 times)
  • 12 3 4 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • how should you respond to the particularly dumb proofs of the quran's miracle
     OP - September 12, 2011, 03:18 PM

    1.  people memorise the quran

    2.  the quran has been preserved




    my only response is "so what"
  • Re: how should you respons to the particularly dumb proofs of the quran's miracle
     Reply #1 - September 12, 2011, 03:20 PM

    1: People memorise the bible too.
    2: Yeah, that's why Uthman burned lots of "completely identical" Quran scriptures.....just for the laugh.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: how should you respond to the particularly dumb proofs of the quran's miracle
     Reply #2 - September 12, 2011, 03:22 PM

    And that's why the people of Sham and Iraq were fighting a war over disagreements about the Quran.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: how should you respond to the particularly dumb proofs of the quran's miracle
     Reply #3 - September 12, 2011, 03:30 PM


    1.  people memorise the quran


    This is a 'miracle' of the biology of the human mind, if you can describe the ritualised hard wire parroting achieved over endless hours of mimicking and repetition as a miracle, and it could be achieved with any book, were anyone abusive enough of their children (because the hafeez 'miracle' is invariably of a small child) to carry out the same kind of pointless parroting of a tome of their choice - the complete works of Harry Potter, or a couple of Shakespeare plays are good enough examples to counterpoint with.


    2.  the quran has been preserved


    It hasn't:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1999/01/what-is-the-koran/4024/

    ^^^This will cause immense denial and cognitive distress, because the immutable purity and perfection of Islam rests on the falsehood that the Quran is the literal unchanged word of god, but you can throw it into the mix anyway.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: how should you respond to the particularly dumb proofs of the quran's miracle
     Reply #4 - September 12, 2011, 03:35 PM

    1.  people memorise the quran

    2.  the quran has been preserved




    my only response is "so what"


    Response: The Qur'an can be proven without a shadow of a doubt that it is the true word of Allah, as it can be tested and verified so. The proof is in the following:

    "Will they not then meditate upon the Qur'an? Had it been from anyone other than Allah they would surely have found therein much discrepancy."

    Here we have test that demonstrates that there is no error in the Qur'an, showing the truthful nature of the Qur'an. If a person disagrees, then the individual can take up the challenge to find a discrepancy in the Qur’an and when the person discovers that there is no discrepancy, then the only logical conclusion that can be derived is that whomever the author of the Qur’an is, the individual is a truth teller and righteous because all of the content in the Qur’an is without error, indecency, and immorality. The question still remains as to who is the author? The Qur’an answers this question with the following test. The Qur’an states:

    "And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to our servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah if you are truthful."

    Here we have a test which proves that it is not humanly possible to produce a chapter like the Qur'an and proves so by challenging all of those who doubt so to prove so by trying to produce a chapter like the Qur'an. For when trying to produce a chapter like the Qur'an, the skeptic will learn first-hand that such a thing is humanly impossible to do.

         But before the a skeptic develops  the common response of simply producing something in Arabic or claiming that the challenge is not valid because not being able to produce a play like Shakespeare does not mean that the play is from God so the same analogy applies to the Qur'an, let me further elaborate. The Qur'an, like any scripture, is inspiration. And like any scripture, its intent is to inspire people to follow its teaching. Thus the challenge is to produce something that is as inspirational as the Qur'an, for it is the inspiration of the Qur'an that is miraculous. And what is that miracle? The miracle is within the following:

    It is impossible for a person/s to use speech or literature that goes against wants of the masses, which is invented by any person or people, to inspire enough followers amongst them to conquer a nation.

    This is the miracle of Muhammad. For the challenge proves that it is humanly impossible to use any speech or literature that goes against the majority and is invented by a person/s, to inspire enough followers amongst them to conquer a nation. The skeptic still disagrees? Then take the challenge and prove differently. Try using a speech or literature that that does not agree with the likes of a majority of people that is an invention by a person/s. Then use that very same speech to inspire them to conquer a nation and see what happens. The challenge can even be simplified by asking a skeptic to just conquer the street that he or she lives on and see what happens. Yet the person will fail and fail miserably. No person will come close to achieving the challenge. Any individual, when taking the challenge, will have a first-hand eyewitness account from experience and observation that such an act is humanly impossible and that is when the person will learn the miracle of Muhammad. Why? The reason is because Muhammad used the Qur'an to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation in the same fashion. So if it is humanly impossible to use speech or literature that goes against the likes of the masses to inspire them to follow a person/s and conquer a nation, yet Muhammad used the Qur'an to do just that, then what does that mean? That means that the Qur'an that Muhammad used is not the invention of any human but must come from a higher power and authority greater than humans, and that is Allah. Do the skeptics still disagree? Then take the challenge and prove differently. When the challengers fail, because they will, this will help to demonstrate that the Qur’an is of divine origin as proven by the scientific method itself because it provides a hands-on eyewitness account that producing something like the Qur’an is humanly impossible. If you read this, and you yourself disagrees, then take the challenge and prove differently.

    Qul Haatoo Burhaanakum in kuntum saadiqeen
  • Re: how should you respond to the particularly dumb proofs of the quran's miracle
     Reply #5 - September 12, 2011, 03:49 PM

    Joseph Smith took the challenge and won parrot

    Also, how does the Qur'an "go against the likes of the masses?"

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: how should you respond to the particularly dumb proofs of the quran's miracle
     Reply #6 - September 12, 2011, 03:53 PM

    So if it is humanly impossible to use speech or literature that goes against the likes of the masses to inspire them to follow a person/s and conquer a nation, yet Muhammad used the Qur'an to do just that, then what does that mean?


    You're right - Harry Potter and the tragedies of Shakespeare are not the correct analogies.

    When it comes to wet dreams of conquering armies and obedient zombies marching for a uber-leader, getting a hafeez to memorise and recite Mein Kampf might be quite useful, at least for rhetorically puncturing this baloon of vapid, inane and stupid hot air.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: how should you respond to the particularly dumb proofs of the quran's miracle
     Reply #7 - September 12, 2011, 03:57 PM

    I <3 Billy

    Formerly known as Iblis
  • Re: how should you respond to the particularly dumb proofs of the quran's miracle
     Reply #8 - September 12, 2011, 03:57 PM

    Joseph Smith took the challenge and won


    The 2nd edition of The Book Of Mormon had over 1,000 alterations.  Joseph Smith failed.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: how should you respond to the particularly dumb proofs of the quran's miracle
     Reply #9 - September 12, 2011, 04:00 PM

    ^ So true. He did inspire enough followers to conquer a nation, though (if you consider Utah a nation).

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: how should you respond to the particularly dumb proofs of the quran's miracle
     Reply #10 - September 12, 2011, 04:21 PM

    Response: The Qur'an can be proven without a shadow of a doubt that it is the true word of Allah, as it can be tested and verified so. The proof is in the following:

    "Will they not then meditate upon the Qur'an? Had it been from anyone other than Allah they would surely have found therein much discrepancy."


    "And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to our servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah if you are truthful."

    Here we have a test which proves that it is not humanly possible to produce a chapter like the Qur'an and proves so by challenging all of those who doubt so to prove so by trying to produce a chapter like the Qur'an. For when trying to produce a chapter like the Qur'an, the skeptic will learn first-hand that such a thing is humanly impossible to do.

     


    Actually, there are plenty of chapters in the old testament that were written BEFORE the koran
    that the Mo plagerized (and changed culturally to fit the arabs)

    Perfect word of god?  It wasnt even put together,written or consolidated until 20 years
    AFTER mo's death.  No room for human error there  Roll Eyes

    Show me the mud the sun sinks into, and the pillars on the mountains holding earth
    up, please.

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: how should you respond to the particularly dumb proofs of the quran's miracle
     Reply #11 - September 12, 2011, 04:24 PM

    i really think the 'challenge' of the quran is ridiculous. If a muslim is able to elaboate on it, the best they can do is refer to hamza tzotis, and he obviously doesn't know what he is talking about either.


    i have no idea why muslims expect the kuffar to be impressed by it. its just meaningless and empty nonsense.


    As for: "Had it been from anyone other than Allah they would surely have found therein much discrepancy."
    well...we have found plenty
  • Re: how should you respond to the particularly dumb proofs of the quran's miracle
     Reply #12 - September 12, 2011, 04:50 PM

    Quote
    Response: The Qur'an can be proven without a shadow of a doubt that it is the true word of Allah, as it can be tested and verified so. The proof is in the following:

    "Will they not then meditate upon the Qur'an? Had it been from anyone other than Allah they would surely have found therein much discrepancy."

    Here we have test that demonstrates that there is no error in the Qur'an, showing the truthful nature of the Qur'an. If a person disagrees, then the individual can take up the challenge to find a discrepancy in the Qur’an and when the person discovers that there is no discrepancy, then the only logical conclusion that can be derived is that whomever the author of the Qur’an is, the individual is a truth teller and righteous because all of the content in the Qur’an is without error, indecency, and immorality.


    The Qur'an contains plenty of factual errors, but I'm not interested in listing them and sifting through your mental gymnastics. I'm more interested in questioning the assertion that Qur'an is free from immorality and indecency. Eternal torture of disbelievers whose "hearts" you veiled seems moral to you? Beating your wife is moral?

    Quote
    The question still remains as to who is the author? The Qur’an answers this question with the following test. The Qur’an states:

    "And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to our servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah if you are truthful."

    Here we have a test which proves that it is not humanly possible to produce a chapter like the Qur'an and proves so by challenging all of those who doubt so to prove so by trying to produce a chapter like the Qur'an. For when trying to produce a chapter like the Qur'an, the skeptic will learn first-hand that such a thing is humanly impossible to do.


    Pointless exercise, since it's inherently subjective. Conveniently, no rigid criteria was given to measure "likeliness" by, giving believers endless wiggle room. Many have undertaken this challenge and made chapters resembling those of Qur'an, but of course you would deny any resemblance because of your bias.

        
    Quote
    But before the a skeptic develops  the common response of simply producing something in Arabic or claiming that the challenge is not valid because not being able to produce a play like Shakespeare does not mean that the play is from God so the same analogy applies to the Qur'an, let me further elaborate. The Qur'an, like any scripture, is inspiration. And like any scripture, its intent is to inspire people to follow its teaching. Thus the challenge is to produce something that is as inspirational as the Qur'an, for it is the inspiration of the Qur'an that is miraculous. And what is that miracle? The miracle is within the following:

    It is impossible for a person/s to use speech or literature that goes against wants of the masses, which is invented by any person or people, to inspire enough followers amongst them to conquer a nation.


    Such is YOUR understanding of the criteria. Tell me where the Qur'an explicitly mentions inspiration to conquer nations as the criteria by which to compare the chapters.

    Not to mention the fact that there are other texts which meet your criteria. The Bible is the obvious one. US constitution. Plenty others, I'm sure. Attracting a bunch of devout followers is not as difficult as you might imagine, as evidenced by people like David Koresh, Jim Jones, Shoko Asahara, Joseph Smith, and many many more.


    Have you heard the good news? There is no God!
  • Re: how should you respond to the particularly dumb proofs of the quran's miracle
     Reply #13 - September 12, 2011, 05:36 PM

    Joseph Smith took the challenge and won parrot

    Also, how does the Qur'an "go against the likes of the masses?"


    Response: As usual, we see another person dodge the challenge, and instead make the absurd claim that someone the challenge was answered, without proof. Once again, supporting that the Qur'an is the true word of Allah. Thanks for clarifying.

    As for your question, when the Qur'an was revealed, it claimed that Muhammad was a prophet, that Allah is the one and only God, prescribed a specific method of worship, teaches that islam is the only true religion, tells christians and jews and Pagans that their religion is false, etc.. All of these were against the teachings and beliefs of most people of his time when they were revealed, thus going against the masses.

    Qul Haatoo Burhaanakum in kuntum saadiqeen
  • Re: how should you respond to the particularly dumb proofs of the quran's miracle
     Reply #14 - September 12, 2011, 05:40 PM

    Actually, there are plenty of chapters in the old testament that were written BEFORE the koran
    that the Mo plagerized (and changed culturally to fit the arabs)

    Perfect word of god?  It wasnt even put together,written or consolidated until 20 years
    AFTER mo's death.  No room for human error there  Roll Eyes

    Show me the mud the sun sinks into, and the pillars on the mountains holding earth
    up, please.


    Response: The challenge is to produce a chapter like the Qur'an, you produced......NOTHING. Thus your own denial supports the fact that the challenge that proves that the Qur'an is the true word of Allah is valid. Thanks for the assistance.

    Qul Haatoo Burhaanakum in kuntum saadiqeen
  • Re: how should you respond to the particularly dumb proofs of the quran's miracle
     Reply #15 - September 12, 2011, 05:42 PM

    i really think the 'challenge' of the quran is ridiculous. If a muslim is able to elaboate on it, the best they can do is refer to hamza tzotis, and he obviously doesn't know what he is talking about either.


    i have no idea why muslims expect the kuffar to be impressed by it. its just meaningless and empty nonsense.


    As for: "Had it been from anyone other than Allah they would surely have found therein much discrepancy."
    well...we have found plenty


    Resonse: Muslims don't expect you to be impressed, but rather, expect you to do exactly what you are doing now, which is to dodge the challenge for fear of being exposed of your denial to the fact that the Qur'an is the true word of Allah. So far so good.

    Qul Haatoo Burhaanakum in kuntum saadiqeen
  • Re: how should you respond to the particularly dumb proofs of the quran's miracle
     Reply #16 - September 12, 2011, 05:47 PM

    The Qur'an contains plenty of factual errors, but I'm not interested in listing them and sifting through your mental gymnastics. I'm more interested in questioning the assertion that Qur'an is free from immorality and indecency. Eternal torture of disbelievers whose "hearts" you veiled seems moral to you? Beating your wife is moral?

    Pointless exercise, since it's inherently subjective. Conveniently, no rigid criteria was given to measure "likeliness" by, giving believers endless wiggle room. Many have undertaken this challenge and made chapters resembling those of Qur'an, but of course you would deny any resemblance because of your bias.

        
    Such is YOUR understanding of the criteria. Tell me where the Qur'an explicitly mentions inspiration to conquer nations as the criteria by which to compare the chapters.

    Not to mention the fact that there are other texts which meet your criteria. The Bible is the obvious one. US constitution. Plenty others, I'm sure. Attracting a bunch of devout followers is not as difficult as you might imagine, as evidenced by people like David Koresh, Jim Jones, Shoko Asahara, Joseph Smith, and many many more.




    Response: Another dodge of the challenge. Instead we see the absurd claim that there are arrors in the Qur'an, yet fail to provide one. Debunked. Then the argument goes to saying that the challenge has been answered, which is false evidence, for it is equivalent to saying that God exist because "I said so". Simply saying that the challenge has been answered is not actual proof that it is, thus the fact that the challenge confirms that the Qur'an is the true word of Allah still stands.

    Qul Haatoo Burhaanakum in kuntum saadiqeen
  • Re: how should you respond to the particularly dumb proofs of the quran's miracle
     Reply #17 - September 12, 2011, 05:52 PM

    How would one know if something was like the Quran or not?

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: how should you respond to the particularly dumb proofs of the quran's miracle
     Reply #18 - September 12, 2011, 05:54 PM

    Response: As usual, we see another person dodge the challenge, and instead make the absurd claim that someone the challenge was answered, without proof. Once again, supporting that the Qur'an is the true word of Allah. Thanks for clarifying.

    As for your question, when the Qur'an was revealed, it claimed that Muhammad was a prophet, that Allah is the one and only God, prescribed a specific method of worship, teaches that islam is the only true religion, tells christians and jews and Pagans that their religion is false, etc.. All of these were against the teachings and beliefs of most people of his time when they were revealed, thus going against the masses.

    you didn't respond. joseph smith did EXACTLY what your 'challenge' is suggesting; he created a text that went against the general desires of the people(like seriously have you ever read the book of mormon holy shit) and conquered a homeland for his people. he didn't do it to the scale that muhammad did, but you stated it was impossible even on a small scale and that's clearly not the case in the slightest.

    shit, you could even say mirza ghulam al-qadiani or whatever his name is did it too, the ahmadiyya still have communities that they live in to this date.
  • Re: how should you respond to the particularly dumb proofs of the quran's miracle
     Reply #19 - September 12, 2011, 05:55 PM

    RESPONSE:

    stfu

    Formerly known as Iblis
  • Re: how should you respond to the particularly dumb proofs of the quran's miracle
     Reply #20 - September 12, 2011, 05:55 PM

    Response: Another dodge of the challenge. Instead we see the absurd claim that there are arrors in the Qur'an, yet fail to provide one. Debunked. Then the argument goes to saying that the challenge has been answered, which is false evidence, for it is equivalent to saying that God exist because "I said so". Simply saying that the challenge has been answered is not actual proof that it is, thus the fact that the challenge confirms that the Qur'an is the true word of Allah still stands.


    Response: I just realized throughout all your time debating here, you have given us almost zero evidence, zero sources, from zero scholars for your arguments, while we have given you tons of evidence that you simply dismiss away either through mental gymnastics or self-denial.
  • Re: how should you respond to the particularly dumb proofs of the quran's miracle
     Reply #21 - September 12, 2011, 06:02 PM

    RESPONSE:

    stfu

    Good .. CEMB folks learned the word "response"  now next word is "Like wise"

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: how should you respond to the particularly dumb proofs of the quran's miracle
     Reply #22 - September 12, 2011, 06:04 PM

    How would one know if something was like the Quran or not?


    Response: As exlained in post 5 in rely to post 4, the answer is in the result of the test.

    Qul Haatoo Burhaanakum in kuntum saadiqeen
  • Re: how should you respond to the particularly dumb proofs of the quran's miracle
     Reply #23 - September 12, 2011, 06:08 PM

    you didn't respond. joseph smith did EXACTLY what your 'challenge' is suggesting; he created a text that went against the general desires of the people(like seriously have you ever read the book of mormon holy shit) and conquered a homeland for his people. he didn't do it to the scale that muhammad did, but you stated it was impossible even on a small scale and that's clearly not the case in the slightest.

    shit, you could even say mirza ghulam al-qadiani or whatever his name is did it too, the ahmadiyya still have communities that they live in to this date.


    Resonse: Another dodge of the challenge. Insead, we see the same redundant statemeny that Joseph Smith answered the challenge, which is clearly false, because the challenge itself proves that such an act is impossible. Furthermoe, your proof that Joseph Smith answered the challenge is "because a book said so", which is clearly illogical evidence, especially since no book says so. Debunked as usual.

    Qul Haatoo Burhaanakum in kuntum saadiqeen
  • Re: how should you respond to the particularly dumb proofs of the quran's miracle
     Reply #24 - September 12, 2011, 06:08 PM

    RESPONSE:

    stfu


    Response: Likewise.

    Qul Haatoo Burhaanakum in kuntum saadiqeen
  • Re: how should you respond to the particularly dumb proofs of the quran's miracle
     Reply #25 - September 12, 2011, 06:09 PM

    you're a pretty good troll tbh
  • Re: how should you respond to the particularly dumb proofs of the quran's miracle
     Reply #26 - September 12, 2011, 06:10 PM

    Response: I just realized throughout all your time debating here, you have given us almost zero evidence, zero sources, from zero scholars for your arguments, while we have given you tons of evidence that you simply dismiss away either through mental gymnastics or self-denial.


    Response: To the contrary, your inability to disprive anything or show error in any argument I presented supports the fact that my claims are valid, while your logic is utterly pathetic. Denial of such is not befitting.

    Qul Haatoo Burhaanakum in kuntum saadiqeen
  • Re: how should you respond to the particularly dumb proofs of the quran's miracle
     Reply #27 - September 12, 2011, 06:11 PM

    you're a pretty good troll tbh


    Response: Your weak rebuttals support to the contrary.

    Qul Haatoo Burhaanakum in kuntum saadiqeen
  • Re: how should you respond to the particularly dumb proofs of the quran's miracle
     Reply #28 - September 12, 2011, 06:34 PM

    Resonse: Muslims don't expect you to be impressed, ....


    good. so stop wasting our time with it
  • Re: how should you respond to the particularly dumb proofs of the quran's miracle
     Reply #29 - September 12, 2011, 06:45 PM

    Insead, we see the same redundant statemeny that Joseph Smith answered the challenge, which is clearly false, because the challenge itself proves that such an act is impossible. Furthermoe, your proof that Joseph Smith answered the challenge is "because a book said so", which is clearly illogical evidence, especially since no book says so. Debunked as usual.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPP-g1FJiT0

    I thought I'd post some nonsensical shit too.

    Good trolling.
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