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 Topic: Roots of excessive tolerance

 (Read 8372 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Roots of excessive tolerance
     OP - September 17, 2011, 10:19 AM
    I seem to see a trend in the US that assimilation was different say 100 years ago. Finnish immigrants had to teach their kids English and forget Finnish (as one friend said, who has observed this). Today I feel America is different, that Teddy Roosevelt's 'an American, and nothing but an American' view of immigration would be considered rather intolerant.

    This grand tolerance, while a very virtual idea at first sight, seems very amicable. But the effects of excessive tolerance is all to clear. Everything in moderation, including moderation would perhaps be a better way forward, applying it to tolerance too.

    As Leo Strauss once put it: "Absolute tolerance is altogether impossible; the allegedly absolute tolerance turns into ferocious hatred of those who have stated clearly and most forcefully that there are unchangeable standards founded in the nature of man and the nature of things."

    Question: What has driven such absurd levels of excessive tolerance compared to say, 100 years a go?

    Is it because people have forgotten the roots and history of what it should be tolerated, and what shouldn't?

    Is it because with media networks can all to easy to broadcast justified intolerance (e.g. Sharia Law) as unjustified intolerance?

    I've noticed there are several books on this topic on Amazon - but wanted to get other people's views just for kicks.  Afro
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    Relativism | Cognitive dissonance | Cognitive biases | Memeplex | Consequentialism
  • Re: Roots of excessive tolerance
     Reply #1 - September 17, 2011, 06:48 PM
    Quote
    "...there are unchangeable standards founded in the nature of man and the nature of things."

    Do you actually believe that?

    As for the topic:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vO1ZH9UWdE
  • Re: Roots of excessive tolerance
     Reply #2 - September 17, 2011, 07:23 PM
    Quote
    “I have learned silence from the talkative, tolerance from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet strangely, I am ungrateful to these teachers”

     Kahlil Gibran



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Roots of excessive tolerance
     Reply #3 - September 18, 2011, 03:48 AM
    Quote from: HighOctane on September 17, 2011, 10:19 AM
    This grand tolerance, while a very virtual idea at first sight, seems very amicable. But the effects of excessive tolerance is all to clear.

    Dude, what are you talking about?
    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: Roots of excessive tolerance
     Reply #4 - September 18, 2011, 03:23 PM
    Quote from: Abood on September 17, 2011, 06:48 PM
    Do you actually believe that?


    Well, not completely. I do think standards of tolerance/intolerance can change in men and things. But, as a figure of speech, Islam for example doesn't exactly tolerate Jews. While yes, in theory this can be changed, in reality the momentum required in order to do so is quite vast.

    @hypocrucifier: nice quote. What did you mean? That we should be thankful for the bad things in life so we know what good is?

    @olweasel: The levels of tolerance found today in Western society that probably would not have existed 100 years ago (* - this is just a thesis I'm going by, it can be more than wrong). The levels of walking on egg shells not to hurt others. They way that many great leaders of the past including Churchill and Atatürk would be considered Islamaphobic by many today.

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  • Re: Roots of excessive tolerance
     Reply #5 - September 18, 2011, 03:29 PM
    .
    Quote from: King Tut on December 09, 2012, 06:28 PM
    Yeah an I am super ugly, I can't even beat my chest am too skinny and when I roaaar to attract women, they laugh at me, because it sounds like a girl screaming. I can't even attract any bitches!  Cry

  • Re: Roots of excessive tolerance
     Reply #6 - September 18, 2011, 06:21 PM
    Quote from: HighOctane on September 18, 2011, 03:23 PM

    @olweasel: The levels of tolerance found today in Western society that probably would not have existed 100 years ago (* - this is just a thesis I'm going by, it can be more than wrong). The levels of walking on egg shells not to hurt others. They way that many great leaders of the past including Churchill and Atatürk would be considered Islamaphobic by many today.


    You do realize this is not a bad thing right? We can go back to the golden age of toleration



    "Women shouldn't work, secretaries are only there to be laid by the boss and she better shut up if she knows whats good for her" - Sexist stereotypes

    Zoot Suit Riots, Crystal City civil rights movement for Hispanics




    I don't know about Attaturk, but Churchill would be considered Islamophobic NOT because he objectively looked at all the tenets of Islam and objectively came to his various bigoted comments, but because incorrect, distorted stereotypes were pervasive thought the West, including England.  See Edward Said's Orientalism


    I mean I guess I am confused about what exactly we aren't supposed to be tolerating that people in the past got so darn right....
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Roots of excessive tolerance
     Reply #7 - September 18, 2011, 06:23 PM
    Understand not I!
    Little Fly, Thy summer's play
    My thoughtless hand has brushed away.

    I too dance and drink, and sing,
    Till some blind hand shall brush my wing.

    Therefore I am a happy fly,
    If I live or if I die.
  • Re: Roots of excessive tolerance
     Reply #8 - September 18, 2011, 06:32 PM
    Churchill was a piece of shit, he criticised Islam AND was friendly with the Saudis  Roll Eyes Some of my ancestors fought against him  Smiley
  • Re: Roots of excessive tolerance
     Reply #9 - September 18, 2011, 06:55 PM
    Quote from: HighOctane on September 17, 2011, 10:19 AM
    I seem to see a trend in the US that assimilation was different say 100 years ago. Finnish immigrants had to teach their kids English and forget Finnish (as one friend said, who has observed this). Today I feel America is different, that Teddy Roosevelt's 'an American, and nothing but an American' view of immigration would be considered rather intolerant.


    You don't know shit about immigration in this country or about America in general. You've never stepped foot here and the only information you have about us is from the right-wing blogs you read. I hate it when right-wing Brits like you and Pat Condell attempt to impose YOUR country's problems on OURS. The US is not the UK, we don't have a problem with too much tolerance (quite the contrary) and we don't have a problem with Muslim fundamentalists wrecking our secular society (that's YOUR problem, here it's the Christian fundies that are the issue). So please just shut up on topics you are completely ignorant about. For chrissakes we're building a big ass wall on the border of Mexico and have the military deployed there along with armed vigilantes-- how fuckin tolerant do you think we are of immigration exactly?  Roll Eyes

    Quote
    As Leo Strauss once put it: "Absolute tolerance is altogether impossible; the allegedly absolute tolerance turns into ferocious hatred of those who have stated clearly and most forcefully that there are unchangeable standards founded in the nature of man and the nature of things."


    For those who don't know who Strauss is, he invented neoconservatism basically.

    Quote
    Question: What has driven such absurd levels of excessive tolerance compared to say, 100 years a go?


    What deusvult said. I have nothing more to add-- he summed it up perfectly.
    fuck you
  • Re: Roots of excessive tolerance
     Reply #10 - September 18, 2011, 07:48 PM
    Examples of America's excessive tolerance to immigrants and other minority groups:

    *Huge wall being built and partially-completed on America's Southern border

    *Daily military/SWAT-style raids by ICE to seize and deport illegal immigrants (and contrary to popular belief these raids aren't just against dangerous criminals, but against ordinary undocumented immigrants as well)

    *Several states and municipalities passing laws making employment or housing of undocumented immigrants a felony crime, and requiring police officers to check someone's immigration status in any stop

    *The presence of armed right-wing militias/vigilante groups patrolling areas near the border and shooting at border crossers

    *The deployment of the US military on both sides of the border in blatant violation of the Posse Comitatus Act

    *The Border Patrol setting up internal checkpoints several miles in the US interior, in blatant violation of the 4th Amendment to the US Constitution.

    *Elected officials at the state and national level referring to illegal immigrants as "rats", "vermin" and "cockroaches"

    *Several states passing laws and constitutional amendments to prohibit same-sex marriage AND civil unions AND adoption by same-sex couples. Bills have also been introduced to prohibit teachers in public schools from even mentioning homosexuality.

    *State legislatures passing "anti-sharia" laws pushed by right-wing Christians who simultaneously push for "Biblically-based" laws.

    *Special visa reviews by immigration targeted at those from Muslim countries.

    *The unlawful detention and deportation of thousands of Arab and Muslim Americans in the immediate aftermath of 9/11

    *The deportation of hundreds of lawful political dissenters of foreign nationality.

    *The arbitrary detention, strip-searches and arrests of air travelers based on ethnicity, national origin or religion.

    *An FBI training course which teaches agents that all Muslims are to be suspected of radical activity

    *Far-right extremist bigots and nutjobs like Pamela Geller, Ann Coulter, and Glenn Beck given regularly platforms on major media outlets.

    *A multi-billion dollar right-wing Christian media industry on TV and radio and internet that regularly exhorts its viewers/listeners/readers to support government policies to discriminate against Muslims, homosexuals, atheists/secularists, and other social minorities.

    *An equally large network of right-wing talk radio and TV pundits essentially doing the same.

    *A well-financed and organized "Tea Party" movement that is essentially racist in nature.

    HighOctane, this is not Europe, and you need to pull your head out of your ass. How you even made it out of Islam in the first place is beyond me, as the ignorance and authoritarian ideology suits you quite well.
    fuck you
  • Re: Roots of excessive tolerance
     Reply #11 - September 18, 2011, 09:14 PM
    Q, I agree with all your points, but I've also noticed that liberals/leftists on the west are way too tolerant towards Islam. They criticize christianity and christian right wingers and rightly so, but when it comes to islam and muslims, they get mute on the same things that they criticize christians on. That frustrates me.

    E.g, would you agree or disagree that a significant number of muslim mosques give radical sermons, and monitoring/regulating the mosque's sermons is a good way to cut down on islamic radicalization?

    I think its a good way, but when the FBI did this recently in the US, I saw all the liberals/leftists that I generally agree with, acting infuriated/offended. Why are they afraid of calling a spade a spade when it comes to islam?
    Quote from: King Tut on December 09, 2012, 06:28 PM
    Yeah an I am super ugly, I can't even beat my chest am too skinny and when I roaaar to attract women, they laugh at me, because it sounds like a girl screaming. I can't even attract any bitches!  Cry

  • Re: Roots of excessive tolerance
     Reply #12 - September 18, 2011, 09:47 PM
    That's not what the FBI did at all. What they did was say all Muslims are potential terrorists.

    I have never seen a leftist too tolerant of Islam. What they do is point out the real Islamophobia and thinly veiled (sometimes not veiled at all) racism in the US. The situation is entirely different from the UK, because in the US there's no threat of Sharia law taking over, contrary to what the far right wants us to believe. It would be out of context for people to criticize Islam in American politics, and indeed quite dangerous, considering Muslims in America are already victimized.
  • Re: Roots of excessive tolerance
     Reply #13 - September 18, 2011, 10:45 PM
    Quote from: shilakijawani on September 18, 2011, 09:14 PM
    Q, I agree with all your points, but I've also noticed that liberals/leftists on the west are way too tolerant towards Islam. They criticize christianity and christian right wingers and rightly so, but when it comes to islam and muslims, they get mute on the same things that they criticize christians on. That frustrates me.


    To the extent that this is true (and I do think there's a kernel of truth here), it's because the liberals and leftists feel like they need to be a counterweight to the fire-breathing bigots in this country determined to trample on the rights of a religious minority. That being said people in general often have a difficult time understanding the concept of "critical/conditional support" or independent criticism-- the left is no exception-- so sometimes the line between eagerly defending a religious minority from discrimination and engaging in apologetics on their religion's behalf can get blurred.

    Quote from: Abood on September 18, 2011, 09:47 PM
    I have never seen a leftist too tolerant of Islam. What they do is point out the real Islamophobia and thinly veiled (sometimes not veiled at all) racism in the US.


    Nah, shikiljwhatshisface has a point, even if he overstated it. For example a person in a socialist organization I was a member of actually wrote that "9/11 had nothing to do with Islam" in an opinion piece on the website, which, of course, I challenged him on. Sometimes in the eagerness to defend Muslims from bigotry, American leftists can cross the line into become uncritical apologists for Islam. However for those who think that's the bigger problem in the US than anti-Muslim bigotry, it's turning reality on its head. One can find similar occurrences in the Western left when leftists sometimes give support to Hizbollah or Hamas in the name of anti-imperialism. Let's not pretend leftists are incapable of stupid decision-making or blurring ideological lines.

    fuck you
  • Re: Roots of excessive tolerance
     Reply #14 - September 18, 2011, 10:46 PM
    You're right, I hate it when leftists support Hamas or Hezbollah. finmad
  • Re: Roots of excessive tolerance
     Reply #15 - September 18, 2011, 10:51 PM
    Even leftists in the Muslim/Arab world had to find out the hard way you can't trust folks like that as allies for long-- look at what happened to the Union of Communist Militants in Iran.
    fuck you
  • Re: Roots of excessive tolerance
     Reply #16 - September 19, 2011, 12:10 AM
    Quote from: shilakijawani on September 18, 2011, 09:14 PM
    Q, I agree with all your points, but I've also noticed that liberals/leftists on the west are way too tolerant towards Islam. They criticize christianity and christian right wingers and rightly so, but when it comes to islam and muslims, they get mute on the same things that they criticize christians on. That frustrates me.

    E.g, would you agree or disagree that a significant number of muslim mosques give radical sermons, and monitoring/regulating the mosque's sermons is a good way to cut down on islamic radicalization?

    I think its a good way, but when the FBI did this recently in the US, I saw all the liberals/leftists that I generally agree with, acting infuriated/offended. Why are they afraid of calling a spade a spade when it comes to islam?


     Afro Afro Yes! indeed I have always wondered why? Makes it appear as if they have a carte blanche to do whatever they please!
    This can only make them look very sinister in the eyes of people,especially those who have always got the rough end of the stick from these maniacs.{yeez 4 eg.   Cheesy}
    Truth is neither at the right nor the left it's somewhere at the center.

    Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi on September 18, 2011, 10:45 PM
    That being said people in general often have a difficult time understanding the concept of "critical/conditional support" or independent criticism-- the left is no exception-- so sometimes the line between eagerly defending a religious minority from discrimination and engaging in apologetics on their religion's behalf can get blurred.

     
     Let's not pretend leftists are incapable of stupid decision-making or blurring ideological lines.




    clap clap You get a standing ovation from me for this post.This kind of honesty is highly appreciated, it goes a great way in clearing up the air and facilitates civil dialogues and debates.
    Otherwise we end up having swearing matches and futile polemics that serve to just vitiate the atmosphere.  


    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Roots of excessive tolerance
     Reply #17 - September 19, 2011, 02:25 AM
    Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi on September 18, 2011, 06:55 PM
    You don't know shit about immigration in this country or about America in general.


    Before I joined this forum I assumed USA was like UK. I don't know why. I only recently learned of all the crazy Xtians in the USA causing havok and other things which I have promptly forgotten that have made me realise how different UK and USA are politically. I know very little of UK politics except what I can't stop filtering into my subconscious through conversations and the media. I know nothing at all of USA. All I know is it's not tolerance that's the issue, but the lack of many people to implement the things they demand- which are tolerance, freedom of choice, freedom of speech, freedom to live how they choose to as long as it doesn't harm others, etc. I have no problem tolerating/accepting the ways of others, neither do many people. I only hate that this liberty is eagerly lapped up by muslims (and others) and not returned, instead it is used as some sort of weapon by them!

  • Re: Roots of excessive tolerance
     Reply #18 - September 19, 2011, 05:28 AM
    Quote from: hypocrucifier on September 19, 2011, 12:10 AM
    Afro Afro Yes! indeed I have always wondered why? Makes it appear as if they have a carte blanche to do whatever they please!
    This can only make them look very sinister in the eyes of people,especially those who have always got the rough end of the stick from these maniacs.{yeez 4 eg.   Cheesy}
    Truth is neither at the right nor the left it's somewhere at the center.


    Gah. You don't see a problem with an extremely powerful domestic intelligence/law enforcement organization teaching its agents to actively target and suspect every member of a religious minority?  Roll Eyes

    Quote
    clap clap You get a standing ovation from me for this post.


    I decline your standing o.
    fuck you
  • Re: Roots of excessive tolerance
     Reply #19 - September 19, 2011, 12:48 PM
    Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi
    You don't know shit about immigration in this country or about America in general. You've never stepped foot here and the only information you have about us is from the right-wing blogs you read.


    Are you implying that, unless someone has "set foot" in a country, they are not qualified to express an opinion on it?
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Roots of excessive tolerance
     Reply #20 - September 19, 2011, 01:10 PM
    Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi
    Sometimes in the eagerness to defend Muslims from bigotry, American leftists can cross the line into become uncritical apologists for Islam. However for those who think that's the bigger problem in the US than anti-Muslim bigotry, it's turning reality on its head.


    Can you provide some examples of this so-called "anti-Muslim bigotry" in the US?
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Roots of excessive tolerance
     Reply #21 - September 19, 2011, 01:17 PM
    Quote from: DH
    Can you provide some examples of this so-called "anti-Muslim bigotry" in the US?


    In fact I'll start a separate thread on this whole subject.
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Roots of excessive tolerance
     Reply #22 - September 19, 2011, 03:26 PM
    Quote from: Abood on September 18, 2011, 09:47 PM
    That's not what the FBI did at all. What they did was say all Muslims are potential terrorists.

    All that this meant was, they monitored muslim neighborhoods, mosques, libraries, etc for radical sermons, radical literature, or people who seemed to be getting radicalized?

    If that's all that they did, I think that's an effective way to counter radicalization, isn't it? There's a reason why the U.S hasn't had any islamist terrorist attack since 9/11, that's almost a 100% success rate. That shows pretty clearly that their strategy is working.

    Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi on September 18, 2011, 10:45 PM
    To the extent that this is true (and I do think there's a kernel of truth here), it's because the liberals and leftists feel like they need to be a counterweight to the fire-breathing bigots in this country determined to trample on the rights of a religious minority. That being said people in general often have a difficult time understanding the concept of "critical/conditional support" or independent criticism-- the left is no exception-- so sometimes the line between eagerly defending a religious minority from discrimination and engaging in apologetics on their religion's behalf can get blurred.

    +1.

    We're on the same page here.
    Quote from: King Tut on December 09, 2012, 06:28 PM
    Yeah an I am super ugly, I can't even beat my chest am too skinny and when I roaaar to attract women, they laugh at me, because it sounds like a girl screaming. I can't even attract any bitches!  Cry

  • Re: Roots of excessive tolerance
     Reply #23 - September 19, 2011, 03:29 PM
    Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi on September 19, 2011, 05:28 AM
    Gah. You don't see a problem with an extremely powerful domestic intelligence/law enforcement organization teaching its agents to actively target and suspect every member of a religious minority?  Roll Eyes

    If all they're doing is silently monitoring the sermons and the literature in the library without getting in the way or arresting someone without due charge, then I don't see anything wrong with it. I think its a very effective strategy. If/when it does escalate into real discrimination against muslims, I'll stand with you to denounce it.
    Quote from: King Tut on December 09, 2012, 06:28 PM
    Yeah an I am super ugly, I can't even beat my chest am too skinny and when I roaaar to attract women, they laugh at me, because it sounds like a girl screaming. I can't even attract any bitches!  Cry

  • Re: Roots of excessive tolerance
     Reply #24 - September 19, 2011, 06:01 PM
    Did you even read the story?

    Quote
    The FBI is teaching its counterterrorism agents that “main stream” [sic] American Muslims are likely to be terrorist sympathizers; that the Prophet Mohammed was a “cult leader”; and that the Islamic practice of giving charity is no more than a “funding mechanism for combat.”

    http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/09/fbi-muslims-radical/

    The FBI accused every Muslim of being a potential terrorist.
  • Re: Roots of excessive tolerance
     Reply #25 - September 19, 2011, 11:49 PM
    They can accuse them of being a space alien who wants to destroy humanity, it means jack shit. What matters is what actions they took against muslims. I.e, did it bring any harm to a normal law abiding muslim citizen?

    Also, I don't see anything untruthful in all of those statements, i.e with the cult leader, a part of zakat going towards funding combat, etc.
    Quote from: King Tut on December 09, 2012, 06:28 PM
    Yeah an I am super ugly, I can't even beat my chest am too skinny and when I roaaar to attract women, they laugh at me, because it sounds like a girl screaming. I can't even attract any bitches!  Cry

  • Re: Roots of excessive tolerance
     Reply #26 - September 20, 2011, 12:17 AM
    Quote from: shilakijawani on September 19, 2011, 03:29 PM
    If all they're doing is silently monitoring the sermons and the literature in the library without getting in the way or arresting someone without due charge, then I don't see anything wrong with it. I think its a very effective strategy. If/when it does escalate into real discrimination against muslims, I'll stand with you to denounce it.


    Quote from: shilakijawani on September 19, 2011, 11:49 PM
    They can accuse them of being a space alien who wants to destroy humanity, it means jack shit. What matters is what actions they took against muslims. I.e, did it bring any harm to a normal law abiding muslim citizen?

    Also, I don't see anything untruthful in all of those statements, i.e with the cult leader, a part of zakat going towards funding combat, etc.


    Posting again for your benefit...

    Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi on September 19, 2011, 05:28 AM
    Gah. You don't see a problem with an extremely powerful domestic intelligence/law enforcement organization teaching its agents to actively target and suspect every member of a religious minority?  Roll Eyes


    The FBI aren't choir boys. They are essentially the domestic secret police of the American Empire. They have a poor record since their founding of violating civil rights, bullying political dissidents and religious and ethnic minorities, and generally using heavy-handed and arguably unconstitutional tactics against their targets as it is-- teaching the agents that not only is it okay to target all members of a particular religious minority, but that they SHOULD is fundamentally dangerous. Any society that values liberty beyond mere lip-service should not be training their law enforcement/domestic intelligence agents in such a way.
    fuck you
  • Re: Roots of excessive tolerance
     Reply #27 - September 20, 2011, 05:15 AM
    Quote from: Abood
    The FBI accused every Muslim of being a potential terrorist.


    We're ALL potential terrorists in the sense that we are all born with the potential to develop the mindset that drives people to commit acts of terrorism. If we belong to a movement, eg Islam, that glorifies terror and violence as godly acts then our chances of going on to commit terrorist acts are vastly increased. This does not mean that every single Muslim is going to become a terrorist any more than mere membership of the Nazi party inexorably led Nazi party members to engage in violence against Jews. However, in both cases, membership of the respective movements can reasonably be taken as a moral endorsement of their core ideologies by any randomly chosen individual member until firm evidence to the contrary is forthcoming.
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Roots of excessive tolerance
     Reply #28 - September 20, 2011, 05:56 AM
    Nazi Party and Islam equivalency.

    Really, fuck-tool?
    Formerly known as Iblis
  • Re: Roots of excessive tolerance
     Reply #29 - September 20, 2011, 05:57 AM
    Eh, he's mentioned this several times before. Nothing new here.
    fuck you
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