hamza tzortzis

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hamza tzortzis
OP - October 03, 2011, 10:37 AM

I read this debate text on hamza's blog
http://hamzatzortzis.blogspot.com/2010/02/cambridge-union-debate-professor.html

what you guys have to say about this ...what are the counter arguments we can raise from hamza's points ?

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Re: hamza tzortzis
Reply #1 - October 03, 2011, 10:38 AM

Google for arguments against the Kalam Cosmological Argument - he is just copying a Christian argument.

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Re: hamza tzortzis
Reply #2 - October 03, 2011, 10:44 AM

why no atheist like Richard Dawkins or others come forward to have a debate with this Hamza boy .... i think someone from CEMB ..just like TheRationalizer can give strong arguments to hamza...................

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Re: hamza tzortzis
Reply #3 - October 03, 2011, 10:48 AM

Hamza did agree to have a skype debate with me, but later changed his mind.

Hamza also had an opportunity to talk to Dawkins when he ambushed him at the Ireland Atheist event and Dawkins said "Okay, let's talk about evolution" - but Hamza chickened out and claimed he had no opinion on the subject, at which point Dawkins walked off. Just like when he ambushed PZ Myers he wanted to avoid talking about embryology.

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Re: hamza tzortzis
Reply #4 - October 03, 2011, 10:51 AM

ohh great Raty ..... you must keep pushing him for the debate... ...may be he might agree and you can show him his real value

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Re: hamza tzortzis
Reply #5 - October 03, 2011, 10:54 AM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on October 03, 2011, 10:48 AM
Hamza did agree to have a skype debate with me, but later changed his mind.

on which topic you were planning to debate ?

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Re: hamza tzortzis
Reply #6 - October 03, 2011, 10:57 AM

Quran miracles, kalam cosmological argument, etc

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Re: hamza tzortzis
Reply #7 - October 03, 2011, 12:57 PM

He has nothing new to say on any topic, apart from the 'challenge of the quran'
www.theinimitablequran.com is his website and he has spend a long time trying (and failing) to make the challenge objective.

I think any debate with this guy should be about this.
His argument is laced throughout with glaring logic fails, but it is long winded enough to dissuade anybody from bothering to refute it.
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Reply #8 - October 03, 2011, 01:13 PM

Yea, those Quranic arguments make little sense.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
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Re: hamza tzortzis
Reply #9 - October 03, 2011, 01:21 PM

Quote from: dr_sloth on October 03, 2011, 12:57 PM
but it is long winded enough to dissuade anybody from bothering to refute it.

That basically sums up his whole technique.

Dawah is basically snake oil selling. Tzortzis works on the basis of breathless hysteria and misdirection and rhetorical pomposity to try and drown out any argument or refutation.

That is the message - loud chest thumping is the 'proof' of Allah, Islam, Quran etc etc

Its as much for Muslims as to convert non Muslims - Zakir Naik is so popular because in the midst of his stupidity and lies is a bravado that appeals to believers. The bravado and chest thumping and hysteria and blind assertion is what matters. Its a self esteem thing as much as anything else - believers need their self esteem lifted, their faith invigorated, and a performing clown on stage throwing water bombs, honking his horn, squirting water in the face of the disbelievers from the plastic flower on his lapel does the trick. Tzortzis is the same in that respect.

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Re: hamza tzortzis
Reply #10 - October 03, 2011, 01:22 PM

It's such an easy game to play. More atheists should do it

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Re: hamza tzortzis
Reply #11 - October 03, 2011, 01:25 PM

Dawkins would totally pwn Hamza on Evolution, but I am sure he wouldnt be able to offer any sound and coherent refutation of the deeper philosophical arguments for the existence of God that Hamza proposes.

"What you do speaks so loud that I cannot hear what you say."
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Re: hamza tzortzis
Reply #12 - October 03, 2011, 01:27 PM

Quote from: vagabond on October 03, 2011, 01:25 PM
Dawkins would totally pwn Hamza on Evolution, but I am sure he wouldnt be able to offer any sound and coherent refutation of the deeper philosophical arguments for the existence of God that Hamza proposes.

But they are vacuous, so it's not really a big deal

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Re: hamza tzortzis
Reply #13 - October 03, 2011, 01:30 PM

Yeah, either that or, because Dawkins is shite at philosophy.
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Re: hamza tzortzis
Reply #14 - October 03, 2011, 01:35 PM

Well, let me point out one massive flaw in this philosophy.

Monotheists always say that employing Occam's razor results in a single god, because you don't need more than one all-powerful entity to create the universe. This argument is simply flawed.

If I look at a pyramid does it make more sense that a single all-powerful entity created it or does Occam's razor lead me to the conclusion that an army of semi-powerful entities (humans) is actually far less complicated and thus far more likely? A multitude of "gods" with limited power is far more likely than a single god with unlimited power.

Occam's razor concludes the exact opposite of what they claim, which is exactly why they pretend that Occam's razor means to use as small a number as possible.

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Re: hamza tzortzis
Reply #15 - October 03, 2011, 01:39 PM

Quote from: vagabond on October 03, 2011, 01:25 PM
Dawkins would totally pwn Hamza on Evolution, but I am sure he wouldnt be able to offer any sound and coherent refutation of the deeper philosophical arguments for the existence of God that Hamza proposes.

that William Lane Craig proposes.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
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Re: hamza tzortzis
Reply #16 - October 03, 2011, 01:44 PM

Quote from: deusvult on October 03, 2011, 01:39 PM
that William Lane Craig proposes.

Although I would like to see the debate happen too, I think Dawkins is right in his approach.

These people don't want to debate, they want to be seen in the company of credible people so that they can give the masses the illusion that there IS a debate. In simply turning up Dawkins would give WLC exactly what he wants.

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Re: hamza tzortzis
Reply #17 - October 03, 2011, 01:47 PM

We actually studied WLC's cosmological argument in my philosophy of religion class, alongside Plato and Kierkegaard.
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Re: hamza tzortzis
Reply #18 - October 03, 2011, 01:59 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on October 03, 2011, 01:44 PM
These people don't want to debate, they want to be seen in the company of credible people so that they can give the masses the illusion that there IS a debate.

Very good point.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: hamza tzortzis
Reply #19 - October 03, 2011, 02:04 PM

@Rationalizer

Quote
they want to be seen in the company of credible people so that they can give the masses the illusion that there IS a debate.

Well, I'd maintain that there is in fact a debate to be had on the subject of the existence of God, it's not a foregone conclusion. And Craig, though he is a sophist, does not need to debate Dawkins to give himself credibility. He's debated many atheist thinkers and philosophers who are far better at defending atheism on a philosophical level. And, I suppose Craig has two Ph.D.s or something like that.
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Re: hamza tzortzis
Reply #20 - October 03, 2011, 02:08 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on October 03, 2011, 02:04 PM
Well, I'd maintain that there is in fact a debate to be had on the subject of the existence of God, it's not a foregone conclusion. And Craig, though he is a sophist, does not need to debate Dawkins to give himself credibility. He's debated many atheist thinkers and philosophers who are far better at defending atheism on a philosophical level. And, I suppose Craig has two Ph.D.s or something like that.

It works like this

Step 1
Debate: Existence of God
Conclusion: Nobody can disprove god, or prove how the universe exists without god.

Step 2
Debate: How did we get here
Conclusion: Nobody can explain how life started, and nobody can prove god *didn't* guide evolution.

Step 3
Tell children "Look, there is so much debate about god and evolution; this wouldn't be going on if they could prove their position! Now use your 'common sense' and you will see what the truth is."

Check mate.

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Re: hamza tzortzis
Reply #21 - October 03, 2011, 02:27 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on October 03, 2011, 01:35 PM
If I look at a pyramid does it make more sense that a single all-powerful entity created it or does Occam's razor lead me to the conclusion that an army of semi-powerful entities (humans) is actually far less complicated and thus far more likely? A multitude of "gods" with limited power is far more likely than a single god with unlimited power.

I don't think that comparison works simply because we have the experiential knowledge of human construction projects, but not of the construction of the universe by gods or otherwise.

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Re: hamza tzortzis
Reply #22 - October 03, 2011, 02:41 PM

Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi on October 03, 2011, 02:27 PM
I don't think that comparison works simply because we have the experiential knowledge of human construction projects, but not of the construction of the universe by gods or otherwise.

I think it works. I am pointing out that Occam's razor is about unnecessary complications, and an all-powerful entity is a complication that "lots of semi powerful entities" does not require.

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Re: hamza tzortzis
Reply #23 - October 03, 2011, 02:46 PM

Why? I don't understand.

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Re: hamza tzortzis
Reply #24 - October 03, 2011, 05:25 PM

i don't understand the obsession on here with hamza tzortis..

him n zakir naik are just pseudo intellectual rabble rousers who use charisma to appeal to their mass herds of blind muslims followers.

these guys are not even worth acknowledging
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Re: hamza tzortzis
Reply #25 - October 03, 2011, 06:07 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnQjSBXb6h0

PZ Myers gave good arguments , but he was not giving them strongly ....i mean, it seems that he is also not sure about what to say ..............what do you guys think ? may be i am missing something

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Re: hamza tzortzis
Reply #26 - October 03, 2011, 06:19 PM

basically, i dont think he really cares about the issue. He could have made his views known ages ago if he wanted to, but we have had to wait until Hamza and his boyfriend accosted him in the street.

unlike Hamza, (and some of us) he has much more interesting things to concern himself with.

i think the whole concept of 'science in the quran' is such a joke to real scientists, that they dont really even want to be associated with it. They dont want to be seen to be bullying these idiots.
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Re: hamza tzortzis
Reply #27 - October 03, 2011, 06:22 PM

yeah you are right

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Re: hamza tzortzis
Reply #28 - October 03, 2011, 06:45 PM

Kartoos are you programming A lover or you like programming?

Little Fly, Thy summer's play
My thoughtless hand has brushed away.

I too dance and drink, and sing,
Till some blind hand shall brush my wing.

Therefore I am a happy fly,
If I live or if I die.
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Re: hamza tzortzis
Reply #29 - October 03, 2011, 06:47 PM

ehehe....both

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