Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


What music are you listen...
by zeca
Yesterday at 06:05 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
November 22, 2024, 02:51 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
November 22, 2024, 06:45 AM

Gaza assault
November 21, 2024, 07:56 PM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
November 21, 2024, 05:07 PM

New Britain
November 20, 2024, 05:41 PM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
November 20, 2024, 09:02 AM

Marcion and the introduct...
by zeca
November 19, 2024, 11:36 PM

Dutch elections
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 10:11 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 08:46 PM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
November 07, 2024, 09:56 AM

The origins of Judaism
by zeca
November 02, 2024, 12:56 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: The Qur’an’s Challenge: A Literary & Linguistic Miracle (Summarised)

 (Read 22201 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • The Qur’an’s Challenge: A Literary & Linguistic Miracle (Summarised)
     OP - October 19, 2011, 04:43 PM

    (by Hamza Tzortzis)
    http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/?page_id=170
    I have summarised this because it is so long and rambling. I have also tried to make it flow a bit better as an argument, but it's still pretty hopeless. It is certainly no miracle.

    The quran is an entirely new literary form.
    the Quran [and qurqan] is impossible to imitate

    Arabic literary forms
    Arabic is always either prose and poetry. Some people say that the quran is neither, and has a unique literary form.
     
    Arabic poetry
    Poetry is a form of literary art in which language is used for its aesthetic and evocative qualities in addition to, or in lieu of, its apparent meaning.
    The Qur’an cannot be simply described as poetry because the totality of each surah does not conform to any of the al-bihar and in many places does not exhibit the same regular rythmic patterns of the al-bihar

    Arabic prose
    Prose is the ordinary form of written language and every-day speech.
    The Qur’an cannot be simply described as prose ( saj’) for three reasons:

    1. Unique fusion of metrical and non-metrical speech

    2. The Qur’an transcends saj’
    a. Greater tendency to mono-rhyme
    b. Does not conform to a particular style
    c. Greater range of saj’ phrases
    d. Higher frequency of rhetorical features
    [Even though neither I, nor anybody else, has ever counted the frequency of rhetorical devices in anything other than the quran, I can say with certainty that] The Qur’an employs a wider range and frequency of rhetorical features than any other rhymed prose; past or present.
    Pointless Examples in the quran of the following literary devices:  Alliteration, Analogy, Antiphrasis, Antithesis. Asyndeton, Assonance Cadence Chiasmus Epizeuxis Equivoque. Homonymy, Hyperbole, Isocolon, Metaphor Metonymy Palindrome Parenthesis, Polyptoton, Rhetorical questions  Synecdoche

    3. Qur’an bound stylistic variations
    Stylistic variation is the use of different features of language in a myriad of ways. the Qur’an uses literary and linguistic devices in such a way that has not been used before with unparalleled communicative effect.
    The use of stylistic variation or stylistic differences, includes, but is not limited to:
    1. Semantically driven assonance and rhyme
    2. Grammatical shifts (iltifaat, in Arabic)
    3. Interrelation between sound, structure and meaning
    4. Choice of words
    5. Unique linguistic genre
    6. Word order


    What is a miracle?
     A miracle is commonly defined as a violation of natural law.
    There are two problems with this deifition.
    1.   Describing Laws of nature rely on induction
    2.   the capacity of nature can be refedined
     and so I am stealing WLC’s definition of miracle:  “events which lie outside the productive capacity of nature” [even though this solves neither of the problems].

    Why is the Qur’an a Miracle?
    The quran lies outside the productive capacity of the nature of the Arabic language because it is neither prose nor poetry and has not been matched. According to me, every combination of Arabic words and letters have been used to try and imitate the quran. According to me, they all fail, therefore the quran is a miracle.

    The challenge in the Qur’an
    According to Qur’anic commentators such as Ibn Kathir, Suyuti and Ibn Abbas, these verses issue a challenge to produce a chapter that imitates the unique literary form of the Qur’an.[12]
    they cannot:
    1. Replicate the Qur’an’s literary form
    2. Match the unique linguistic nature of the Qur’an
    3. Select and arrange words like that of the Qur’an
    4. Select and arrange similar grammatical particles
    5. Match the Qur’an’s superior eloquence and sound
    6. Equal the frequency of rhetorical devices
    7. Match the level of content and informativeness
    8. Equal the Qur’an’s conciseness and flexibility
    The Qur’an is impossible to match linguistically
    [apart from the development of every single literary form, in any language, that have ever been produced] a human author is only able to produce the known literary forms.

    examples of the quran's inimitability.
    1: Word order, sound and meaning
    The quran orders words in a way that is better than some other ways I can think of
     
    2: Grammatical Shift (iltifaat)
     the extensive use of grammatical shifts.
     e.g  change from the first person plural ‘We’ to the second person ‘…your Lord’.

    3  Qur’anic precision
    Normally, the word al-Ghafoor always precedes ar-Raheem. But one time it’s the other way around, and this fits nicely with something or other.

    4: Maintenance of rhythm
    The quran arranges words so as to have a rythym

     5: Singular and plural words
    [Apart from all the people who are completely unastounded by the quran] The Qur’an never ceases to astound those who study it.
    whenever Allah uses the word sama’ (listen) in the Qur’an it is usually in its singular rather than the plural form. This is because allah knows that we will all individually interpret the quran our own way.

    6: Qur’anic imagery and word choice
    The quran uses words that are more powerful than other alternative words.

    7: Surah al-Kawthar
    This short surah has the following features:
    i. Emphasis and choice of pronoun
    ii. Word choice
    iii. Word arrangement
    iv. Multiple meaning

    Just by briefly looking at Surah al-Kawthar’s first line it can been seen that the words, word order and pronoun have been carefully selected to enhance the meaning. Any attempt to change the words or word order will truly cease to sound like the Qur’an, and the powerful meaning would be lost.

    The quran also has some science.
    Quran kicks ass
  • Re: The Qur?an?s Challenge: A Literary & Linguistic Miracle (Summarised)
     Reply #1 - October 19, 2011, 04:46 PM

    summarised to even greater degree:

    the quran is not really poetry, and not really prose
    Like every other piece of writing ever, it chooses words and orders them in a specific way to have a meaning.
    It also uses some linguistic and rhetorical devices.
    no human can do this [apart from the human(s) that did]
    therefore the quran is a miracle
  • Re: The Qur?an?s Challenge: A Literary & Linguistic Miracle (Summarised)
     Reply #2 - October 19, 2011, 04:58 PM

    Summarized even more:

    1. The Quran is the Quran.
    2. Therefore, the Quran is true.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: The Qur?an?s Challenge: A Literary & Linguistic Miracle (Summarised)
     Reply #3 - October 19, 2011, 08:31 PM

    can anyone who knows Arabic tell me if there is any sense in the following specific argument?

    Quote
    One of the many fascinating aspects of the Qur’an is that it never ceases to astound those who study it. As each layer of knowledge is unravelled further levels of understanding and comprehension are revealed. The fact that Allah the Creator has a very fine and subtle knowledge of human nature in terms of how we think and feel is highlighted throughout the Qur’an. For example, whenever Allah uses the word sama’ (listen) in the Qur’an it is usually in its singular rather than the plural form as in Surah al-Baqarah (The Heifer, 2) verse 7 we read;

    “Allah has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, (i.e. they are closed from accepting Allah’s Guidance), and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment.”

    The highlighted text above shows that although the words qoloobihim (hearts) and absaarihim (eyes) are in their plural forms the word sami’him (hearing) is singular. This is due to the fact that if we listen to speech, our hearts and minds all react on an individual basis, whereby we will translate and understand the speech according to our own personal understanding and comprehension of what was said. This type of subtlety is lost when the Qur’an is translated into another language, so the true linguistic miracle and magnificence of the Qur’an can only be fully appreciated from the original Arabic.


  • Re: The Qur’an’s Challenge: A Literary & Linguistic Miracle (Summarised)
     Reply #4 - October 19, 2011, 08:39 PM

    This has nothing to do with Arabic, what does this:

    Quote
    This is due to the fact that if we listen to speech, our hearts and minds all react on an individual basis, whereby we will translate and understand the speech according to our own personal understanding and comprehension of what was said.


    ... have to do with "hearing" being in the singular, as opposed to "sight" and "heart"?!

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: The Qur’an’s Challenge: A Literary & Linguistic Miracle (Summarised)
     Reply #5 - October 19, 2011, 08:42 PM

    is it true that the word 'hearing' could/would have been in the plural if it was referring to the collective hearing of all people?

    in english,  whether "his hearing"  or "their hearing",  you use the same word.



    edit:  Actually, I'm not even sure what he is trying to say here.
  • Re: The Qur’an’s Challenge: A Literary & Linguistic Miracle (Summarised)
     Reply #6 - October 19, 2011, 08:43 PM

    I agree with Hamza Tzortzis. That is why I believe Jurassic Park was the work of Allah, because no other movie has these attributes:

    1. Contains a lot of dinosaurs.

    2. Soundtrack by John Williams.

    3. Profited about $1 billion including merchandise.

    4. Won a bunch of awards from different academies of motion film.

    5. Spark a profound interest on dinosaurs among the general public.

    As you can see, non of these qualities are subjective at all, and are instead objective qualities that can be measured. And also, no other movie in the history of cinema possess all of these qualities. Finally, attempts have been made to replicate Jurassic Park, such as Jurassic Park II and Jurassic Park III, but clearly both movies have failed to possess these same attributes. All of this points to the fact that the movie Jurassic Park is in fact inimitable, which is impossible if it were the work of a mere mortal man such as Steven Spielberg. Thus the movie Jurassic Park is clearly a signpost to the transcendent. Thus Allah exist, and Steven Spielberg was his Messenger.
  • Re: The Qur’an’s Challenge: A Literary & Linguistic Miracle (Summarised)
     Reply #7 - October 19, 2011, 08:47 PM

    this is his brand new polished version of his argument btw.  He has been working on this for years. this is as good as it gets
  • Re: The Qur?an?s Challenge: A Literary & Linguistic Miracle (Summarised)
     Reply #8 - October 19, 2011, 08:49 PM

    is it true that the word 'hearing' could/would have been in the plural if it was referring to the collective hearing of all people?

    in english,  whether "his hearing"  or "their hearing",  you use the same word.


    Both forms are correct, and both apply to all three words. The question is, why was hearing singled out by being in the singular, as opposed to seeing or "hearting"?

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: The Qur?an?s Challenge: A Literary & Linguistic Miracle (Summarised)
     Reply #9 - October 19, 2011, 08:54 PM

    I thought I understood what he was trying and failing to say, but actually i dont get it at all.

    'hearing' is in the singular, whereas 'hearts' and 'eyes' are in the plural because ....
    Quote
    if we listen to speech, our hearts and minds all react on an individual basis, whereby we will translate and understand the speech according to our own personal understanding and comprehension of what was said.


    does this even mean anything?
  • Re: The Qur?an?s Challenge: A Literary & Linguistic Miracle (Summarised)
     Reply #10 - October 19, 2011, 08:54 PM

    Precisely!

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: The Qur?an?s Challenge: A Literary & Linguistic Miracle (Summarised)
     Reply #11 - October 19, 2011, 09:02 PM

    but what could it possibly mean to anyone?  what does Hamza think he is saying?
  • Re: The Qur?an?s Challenge: A Literary & Linguistic Miracle (Summarised)
     Reply #12 - October 19, 2011, 09:35 PM

    can anyone who knows Arabic tell me if there is any sense in the following specific argument?
    One of the many fascinating aspects of the Qur’an is that it never ceases to astound those who study it.


    It means:

    One of the many fascinating aspects of the Qur’an is that it never ceases to astound those who believe in it

    Faith is the magic ingredient here. A bit like Tinkerbells pixie dust - it can make you fly.
  • Re: The Qur?an?s Challenge: A Literary & Linguistic Miracle (Summarised)
     Reply #13 - October 19, 2011, 09:39 PM

    btw I agree that the Qur'an is neither poetry nor prose and has no precedent in Arabic at the time.

    HOWEVER:

    1. It doesn't mean it's from God.

    2. It doesn't mean it's good - let alone sublime! It is a mishmash of prose, poetry and saj' (doggrel). The Qur'an is not uniform. It is at time good. At other times bad. At other times indifferent.
  • Re: The Qur’an’s Challenge: A Literary & Linguistic Miracle (Summarised)
     Reply #14 - October 19, 2011, 09:45 PM

    so is it at times poetry, and other times prose?
    or can you say overall, the whole thing is neither?
  • Re: The Qur’an’s Challenge: A Literary & Linguistic Miracle (Summarised)
     Reply #15 - October 19, 2011, 09:54 PM

    It's a unique sort of mix. Neither wholly one nor the other.

    It doesn't follow the rules of either and makes up it's own rules as it goes along. Something a man of the time could have come up with over 40 years quite easily.

    Without the added ingredient of faith, there is absolutely no reason on earth to call this miraculous.

    I would have been more impressed if it had been a book of the same size in metered Qasida poetry dealing with the subjects it did. That would have been much harder. What Muhammad did was to make up his own style and people called it miraculous and inimitable.

    It may be inimitable - but certainly not miraculous. I can show you some ramblings of nutcases that is inimitable also. Doesn't mean it is either good or miraculous.
  • Re: The Qur’an’s Challenge: A Literary & Linguistic Miracle (Summarised)
     Reply #16 - October 19, 2011, 10:25 PM

    It's a unique sort of mix. Neither wholly one nor the other.

    It doesn't follow the rules of either and makes up it's own rules as it goes along. Something a man of the time could have come up with over 40 years quite easily.

    A bit like beat poetry.

    Was this man a God?

  • Re: The Qur’an’s Challenge: A Literary & Linguistic Miracle (Summarised)
     Reply #17 - October 19, 2011, 10:30 PM

    so is it at times poetry, and other times prose?
    or can you say overall, the whole thing is neither?


    Its inimitable in the same way free verse poetry is inimitable.  No one claims that Walt Whitman had supernatural authorship.   The distinction between Arabic prose and poetry seems to be a red herring.  The divisions were and are there for a division of study, not as the whole sum of " the productive capacity of the Arabic language( or any language)".  The only thing that seems remotely a test of supernatural authorship is the idea that unique combination of rhythmic patterns that could not be intimated, but this seems to be destroyed by claiming that the Quran doesn't stick to any specific rhythmic pattern making it impossible to test, and it would be trivially easy to substitute a word in with the same symbolic pattern with a slightly altered meaning.  Plus even if it did have a unique style that doesn't show supernatural authorship only uniqueness, as Hassan pointed out.  

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: The Qur?an?s Challenge: A Literary & Linguistic Miracle (Summarised)
     Reply #18 - October 20, 2011, 04:51 AM

    I listened to a recitation of Psalms in Hebrew once. Sounded a bit like the Quran, only in Hebrew. Not sure if it was in some sort of meter or not. It was beautiful, though.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: The Qur?an?s Challenge: A Literary & Linguistic Miracle (Summarised)
     Reply #19 - October 20, 2011, 05:54 AM


    It may be inimitable - but certainly not miraculous. I can show you some ramblings of nutcases that is inimitable also. Doesn't mean it is either good or miraculous.


    rofl rofl rofl  Afro



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: The Qur’an’s Challenge: A Literary & Linguistic Miracle (Summarised)
     Reply #20 - October 20, 2011, 07:56 AM

    How is this literary miracle for ya?

    There once was a guy from Arabia
    Who suffered from serious megalomania
    He had an epileptic fit
    and made up some shit
    and that's how he got all that labia



    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: The Qur’an’s Challenge: A Literary & Linguistic Miracle (Summarised)
     Reply #21 - October 20, 2011, 10:04 AM


    That is a good link of Hamza Tortilla tortoise dr_sloth  and there  are GREAAT LITERARY MIRACULOUS  work of Mr. Tortilla on that site. It is good to read them and rip them apart..

    Tortiose way of Quranic Argument for God's Existence"

    Tortilla  response to Dawkins God's Delusion"

    Philosphical Reflection on how to copy/paste using the style of Tortilla

    Reflection on Tortilla self Boasting, self advertising  and self delusion

    Response to the Problem of Evil & How to read and rewrite the old Greek stuff in Geek style  by Tortilla The Geek

    Tortilla discovers Philosophical prospective & the uniqueness of Quran

    How do we know God is one?? A Philosophical and theological perspective of Tortilla


     bull piss in beer bottle .. So much to read..
    errr, that is not so much.. it just 4 pages., well let us read the Islamic intellectual..  

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: The Qur?an?s Challenge: A Literary & Linguistic Miracle (Summarised)
     Reply #22 - October 20, 2011, 10:28 AM

    Quote
    The Qur’an achieves this by asking profound questions concerning natural phenomena, life and the universe.


    Have you looked at the Camel?
    Have you looked at how the Sun rises in the East and sets in the West?
    Have you looked at how shadows follow the Sun?
    Have you looked at how rain falls from the sky, and plants grow from the ground?
    Have you considered the fact that bees make honey (which tastes nice)?
    Have you considered how cows make milk (without having urine and poo in it)?

    I am profoundly overwhelmed with profoundednessyness.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The Qur’an’s Challenge: A Literary & Linguistic Miracle (Summarised)
     Reply #23 - October 20, 2011, 10:49 AM

    Quote
    Have you looked at the Camel?
    Have you looked at how the Sun rises in the East and sets in the West?
    Have you looked at how shadows follow the Sun?
    Have you looked at how rain falls from the sky, and plants grow from the ground?
    Have you considered the fact that bees make honey (which tastes nice)?
    Have you considered how cows make milk (without having urine and poo in it)?

    I am profoundly overwhelmed with profoundednessyness.


    Do you not see how the tides go in and then go out?


    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: The Qur?an?s Challenge: A Literary & Linguistic Miracle (Summarised)
     Reply #24 - October 20, 2011, 11:46 AM

    Have you looked at the Camel?
    Have you looked at how the Sun rises in the East and sets in the West?
    Have you looked at how shadows follow the Sun?
    Have you looked at how rain falls from the sky, and plants grow from the ground?
    Have you considered the fact that bees make honey (which tastes nice)?
    Have you considered how cows make milk (without having urine and poo in it)?


    "There indeed are signs for the men of understanding!"
  • Re: The Qur?an?s Challenge: A Literary & Linguistic Miracle (Summarised)
     Reply #25 - October 20, 2011, 11:51 AM

    There was was a man from the East
    With the sex drive of 99 beast
    He met a young girl
    Thought he'd give her a whirl
    Have you looked at how the camel is good for long journeys across the desert, and at how the rain falls, and how how we bring the dead ground to life with fine food?

    Neither poetry or prose, you cannot explain that!

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The Qur’an’s Challenge: A Literary & Linguistic Miracle (Summarised)
     Reply #26 - October 20, 2011, 11:52 AM

    21:30 "Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together before we clove them asunder?"

    Here Allah is speaking to people 1400 in the future.

  • Re: The Qur’an’s Challenge: A Literary & Linguistic Miracle (Summarised)
     Reply #27 - October 20, 2011, 12:56 PM

    67:5 And We have certainly beautified the nearest heaven with stars and have made [from] them what is thrown at the devils and have prepared for them the punishment of the Blaze.

    And here he is talking to people 1400 years in the past Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The Qur?an?s Challenge: A Literary & Linguistic Miracle (Summarised)
     Reply #28 - October 20, 2011, 01:16 PM

    There was was a man from the East
    With the sex drive of 99 beast
    He met a young girl
    Thought he'd give her a whirl
    Have you looked at how the camel is good for long journeys across the desert, and at how the rain falls, and how how we bring the dead ground to life with fine food?

    Neither poetry or prose, you cannot explain that!


    You need to make a meme out of the last line.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: The Qur?an?s Challenge: A Literary & Linguistic Miracle (Summarised)
     Reply #29 - October 20, 2011, 08:19 PM

    There was was a man from the East
    With the sex drive of 99 beast
    He met a young girl
    Thought he'd give her a whirl
    Have you looked at how the camel is good for long journeys across the desert, and at how the rain falls, and how how we bring the dead ground to life with fine food?

    Neither poetry or prose, you cannot explain that!


    Haha, good one sir

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »