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Theme Changer

 Topic: Objective morality

 (Read 18609 times)
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  • Re: Objective morality
     Reply #120 - November 16, 2011, 10:42 PM

    Speaking of which: I get the distinct impression that some people get so caught up in their supposed "love of wisdom" that they forget (or perhaps never understood) that some questions are simply not amenable to attack by abstract thought. They seem to think that any uncertainty is simply the result of insufficient time or "computing power", and that given enough of both they (or one of their heroes) could think their way through anything.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Objective morality
     Reply #121 - November 16, 2011, 11:01 PM

    If something is true, all the arts and sciences will eventually converge upon it. The washed-out objective vs. subjective morality argument is past its usefulness, I think. We've got to a point where only rapists, child molesters, murderers, psychopaths, sociopaths, religious fuckwits and other assorted social retards are the only ones hindering progress, whom I'm happy to ignore concerning moral matters anyway unless they are used as examples of how not to do shit.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Objective morality
     Reply #122 - November 16, 2011, 11:06 PM

    Grin Disturbingly practical attitude for a Philosophy board.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Objective morality
     Reply #123 - November 17, 2011, 04:37 AM

    Too practical for philosophy? It doesn't have qnything against practicality. I mean, do you think philosophy is impractical?

    I'm open for debate (of why we should re-/embrace Islam), but I will no longer participate in this forum. Message me if you need anything. Good luck and may you all find your way... again...
  • Re: Objective morality
     Reply #124 - November 17, 2011, 04:49 AM

    He's just playing off the idea that philosophers aren't practical, that all they do is sit around and think of ways to complicate things.  He's joking around. 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Objective morality
     Reply #125 - November 17, 2011, 04:51 AM

    I know... But it does have some basis in reality and I was wondering why is that? Reminds me of gladfly's how many philosophers does it take to change a light bulb. That was funny.

    I'm open for debate (of why we should re-/embrace Islam), but I will no longer participate in this forum. Message me if you need anything. Good luck and may you all find your way... again...
  • Re: Objective morality
     Reply #126 - November 17, 2011, 04:56 AM

    It does in the sense that many people don't take the time to sit around and ask why or please prove that, or ask for proofs they just go though out their lives.  If you mean is philosophy really a pointless thought exercise with people arguing back and forth without a conclusion I would say no.  Philosophy has a very important purpose, kind of like how people make fun of scientists for being very dry and humorless and a nerdy, but science itself is important.

    It's just a way to poke fun at people who do philosophy.  If it came down to it I'm sure Oz would say Philosophy is important.   

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Objective morality
     Reply #127 - November 17, 2011, 05:33 AM

    Dis deusvult... very wise man...

    I'm open for debate (of why we should re-/embrace Islam), but I will no longer participate in this forum. Message me if you need anything. Good luck and may you all find your way... again...
  • Re: Objective morality
     Reply #128 - November 17, 2011, 07:49 AM

    Actually, I don't care all that much. I've got a linear algebra exam tomorrow and I have 6 weeks worth of work to catch up on. Ciao.

    Needless to say this didn't happen, mostly because I spent all my time on here, and I'm just gonna go to bed and sort out an excuse for missing the exam later.
  • Re: Objective morality
     Reply #129 - November 17, 2011, 10:36 AM

    Speaking of which: I get the distinct impression that some people get so caught up in their supposed "love of wisdom" that they forget (or perhaps never understood) that some questions are simply not amenable to attack by abstract thought. They seem to think that any uncertainty is simply the result of insufficient time or "computing power", and that given enough of both they (or one of their heroes) could think their way through anything.


    Thinking and tools!

    Right now, I can't explain why I like cheese. I will wait, until they find a cheesy gene, or a neurochemical receptor or other big word that has cheese signals or something.

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: Objective morality
     Reply #130 - November 17, 2011, 10:41 AM

    Quote
    If it came down to it I'm sure Oz would say Philosophy is important.


    Religion is what is hindering philosophy too. It's hijacking "important" questions.

    God isn't an important question, I sometimes find that entering into debates validates it as something important, thus persisting the belief. Ignoring all of that, we have no evidence for gods, therefore no justification to believe in one.

    The Bible is the most useful book on morality I've come across, the formula is magical!

    Read Text > Do Opposite = Morality

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: Objective morality
     Reply #131 - November 17, 2011, 07:32 PM

    The Bible is the most useful book on morality I've come across, the formula is magical!

    Read Text > Do Opposite = Morality

    Grin Grin Grin There is a lot of truth in that, although it's not 100% ironclad.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Objective morality
     Reply #132 - November 17, 2011, 07:37 PM

    It's just a way to poke fun at people who do philosophy.  If it came down to it I'm sure Oz would say Philosophy is important.

    I would say that some philosophy (not all) addresses important questions. However, I also think there is a lot of pretentiousness associated with it. The whole "Oh I'm a Lover of WisdomTM" attitude is just begging to have the piss taken out of it. Since I'm naturally irreverent and have no inclination to indulge in hero worship, piss taking will follow. Smiley

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Objective morality
     Reply #133 - November 17, 2011, 07:55 PM

    The 'oh I'm a follower of science and all my beliefs are perfectly empirical' attitude is equally annoying, I think.
  • Re: Objective morality
     Reply #134 - November 17, 2011, 07:58 PM

    I find science useful and interesting. I don't worship it.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Objective morality
     Reply #135 - November 17, 2011, 08:03 PM

    I didn't say you did. bunny
  • Re: Objective morality
     Reply #136 - November 17, 2011, 08:20 PM

    So you admit I'm one step ahead of those who worship "wisdom"? Grin

    By the way, to clarify an earlier point: although I think some philosophy addresses important questions, that does not always translate into producing important results. Of course, the same could be said about science. Some research leads nowhere.

    Also, the fact that it is possible to think about a question does not mean the question is worth thinking about, or at least not for any length of time. This applies even if the question is deep and profound. If it is fundamentally intractable, then devoting a lot of time and energy to pondering it is simply dumb. The same time and energy could be better spent on other questions.

    Take just one notorious example: the old "how do we know that we know?" stuff. You can very easily push that line of questioning to the point where it becomes obviously intractable and obviously futile. Even if you do manage to answer that question, at least for certain contexts, the obvious next stage would be "how do we know that we know that we know?", and this can go on ad infinitum. However, each stage would not appear to be futile just in terms of formal abstract thought. You need to apply common sense to put the brakes on.

    Another one would be something like "why does 1+1=2?". If you could really elucidate a solid answer to that it would be instant Nobel Prize material. It may seem like a trivial question, but it isn't at all, and if someone came up with a good answer it would tell us something fundamental about this universe, and probably about all possible universes. There's not much you can do with that question though. You certainly cannot produce anything interesting about it within mathematics itself, because you cannot write a formal proof of it. It's axiomatic and is its own proof. You can use language to waffle around the general point a bit, but ultimately you're stuffed.

    The advantage that science and mathematics have is an empirical basis to thoroughly ground them. This makes them simpler in some ways, because there are some directions in which you simply cannot go. Reality wont allow it. Philosophy lacks this, or at least doesn't have it to anything like that same extent. If you're going to indulge in philosophy, what you really need is a rough map with areas marked as "Here be idiots".

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Objective morality
     Reply #137 - November 17, 2011, 08:25 PM

    I don't like subjectivity. I prefer objectivity but I guess that what I/others deem to be objective can also be subjective but I guess that is also just my subjective view on somebody else's objectivity Undecided

    When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood by its nature is bound to perish.
  • Re: Objective morality
     Reply #138 - November 17, 2011, 08:42 PM

    Oh I totally love subjectivity, in the right context. It adds a lot of depth and warmth to life. Smiley

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Objective morality
     Reply #139 - November 17, 2011, 08:56 PM

    By the way, to clarify an earlier point: although I think some philosophy addresses important questions, that does not always translate into producing important results. Of course, the same could be said about science. Some research leads nowhere.

    Also, the fact that it is possible to think about a question does not mean the question is worth thinking about, or at least not for any length of time. This applies even if the question is deep and profound. If it is fundamentally intractable, then devoting a lot of time and energy to pondering it is simply dumb. The same time and energy could be better spent on other questions.

     I read a paper this year about how far grasshoppers can kick their poo. Clearly it's a not a problem peculiar to philosophy.

    Quote
    Take just one notorious example: the old "how do we know that we know?" stuff. You can very easily push that line of questioning to the point where it becomes obviously intractable and obviously futile. Even if you do manage to answer that question, at least for certain contexts, the obvious next stage would be "how do we know that we know that we know?", and this can go on ad infinitum. However, each stage would not appear to be futile just in terms of formal abstract thought. You need to apply common sense to put the brakes on.

     Oh you'd be hard pressed to find someone with more disdain for the great game of epistemology than I do. It has it's place and it's a necessary question, but the way every amateur philosopher thinks he's armed in every argument because he's read Godel's second incompleteness theorem or similar... is fricking annoying. Thankfully there is more to philosophy than epistemology.

    Quote
    Another one would be something like "why does 1+1=2?". If you could really elucidate a solid answer to that it would be instant Nobel Prize material.

    Well no, because there is no Nobel prize for mathematics or philosophy. grin12

    Quote
    The advantage that science and mathematics have is an empirical basis to thoroughly ground them. This makes them simpler in some ways, because there are some directions in which you simply cannot go. Reality wont allow it. Philosophy lacks this, or at least doesn't have it to anything like that same extent. If you're going to indulge in philosophy, what you really need is a rough map with areas marked as "Here be idiots".

     Undoubtedly there is less room for ambiguity in the sciences. We just have to have be smart enough to spot the bad philosophy from the good philosophy and the bad science from the good science. It just grates me that philosophy is often dismissed because it does not involve men in white coats in labs. I don't see philosophy as an alternative to science. And I don't think most scientists do either. I'm a physics student, and my lecturers regularly make a point of pointing out the philosophical implications of physical phenomena, like the superposition principle for instance. Also gives me an opportunity to be smug when Professor Evans mixes up the weak and strong anthropic principles. dance
  • Re: Objective morality
     Reply #140 - November 17, 2011, 09:03 PM

    Also worth noting how a valid counter-argument is often dismissed as 'just philosophy'. It's like a catch-all 'I have no response but..... SCIENCE, FUCK YEAH! Fuck off philospher, I read pop-science, this makes me a scientist and a rationalist. yes"
  • Re: Objective morality
     Reply #141 - November 17, 2011, 09:04 PM

    Well no, because there is no Nobel prize for mathematics or philosophy. grin12

    If you could answer that question they'd make a special one for ya.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Objective morality
     Reply #142 - November 17, 2011, 09:05 PM

    BTW, if anyone wants to read that paper on Flying distance of frass kicked by the grasshopper Atractomorpha lata and factors affecting the flying distance...
  • Re: Objective morality
     Reply #143 - November 17, 2011, 09:06 PM

    If you could answer that question they'd make a special one for ya.

    Isn't there a proof in Principia Mathematica? I could swear that was how it started, before the mind-fuck got too big for me and I put it away again. Grin
  • Re: Objective morality
     Reply #144 - November 17, 2011, 09:07 PM

    Grin I think that these days, with the IgNobel's having gone beyond the original intent and become kinda cool, people might sometimes write odd papers just for fun, with the specific intent of trying to win an IgNobel.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Objective morality
     Reply #145 - November 17, 2011, 09:08 PM

    Isn't there a proof in Principia Mathematica? I could swear that was how it started, before the mind-fuck got too big for me and I put it away again. Grin

    Dunno. Haven't read it. I'd be surprised if there was anything though. How would you write it?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Objective morality
     Reply #146 - November 17, 2011, 09:08 PM

    Take just one notorious example: the old "how do we know that we know?" stuff. You can very easily push that line of questioning to the point where it becomes obviously intractable and obviously futile. Even if you do manage to answer that question, at least for certain contexts, the obvious next stage would be "how do we know that we know that we know?", and this can go on ad infinitum. However, each stage would not appear to be futile just in terms of formal abstract thought. You need to apply common sense to put the brakes on.

    My problem with that line of discussion isn't so much that it is flawed and fruitless and boring, but more because of how it's usually employed as a method of critique. You'll get someone laying down the facts and hard evidence in support of something or drawing upon the strengths and virtues of the scientific method, and you'll get someone interject with something like "Ah. But there is no such thing as a fact/truth is subjective" like they are some kind of deep mystical guru and it's the freshest thing ever uttered by mankind, with a condescending air and a wink of victory. I think it's the flimsiest, vapour thin, laziest and easiest rebuttal one could use and it gives the critic a measure of intellectual superiority that is wholly undeserved. Any parrot can squawk philosophy 101.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Objective morality
     Reply #147 - November 17, 2011, 09:09 PM

    Oh yeah. That. Should be a shooting offence. Grin

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Objective morality
     Reply #148 - November 17, 2011, 09:12 PM

    Personally I would say, two is by definition a one and a one. Therefore 1+1=2. Tautology ftw. dance

    But I believe the proof takes up a considerable portion of the first volume, so it might be a little more nuanced than that. Grin
  • Re: Objective morality
     Reply #149 - November 17, 2011, 09:14 PM



    Apparently although the proof begins in volume 1, it's not completed until volume 2. Cheesy
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