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Theme Changer

 Topic: Free will!!!

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  • Re: Free will!!!
     Reply #30 - June 02, 2012, 12:19 PM
    I disagree. Having free will does not mean that it will be impossible to reason with or influence others.
    Life is what happens to you while you're staring at your smartphone.

    Eternal Sunshine of the Religionless Mind
  • Re: Free will!!!
     Reply #31 - June 02, 2012, 12:21 PM
    Yes, but that's not what rehab is. Rehab is physiological and psychological control. It's based on the premise that our actions are a result of bodily functions. It's not about "reason" or "influence".
  • Re: Free will!!!
     Reply #32 - June 02, 2012, 12:23 PM
    Plus, don't you think part of free will would include the ability to control your own beliefs? I didn't have free will when it came to disbelieving in God. I didn't choose to leave Islam. It just happened.

    Religionists believe in free will because it's an important factor in justifying their attitudes. If people had no free will, it would be unjust to punish them for disbelieving in God.
  • Re: Free will!!!
     Reply #33 - June 02, 2012, 12:26 PM
    Are you saying that with free will rehabilitation is utterly impossible?

    I agree that the religious view of punishment is flawed, but I see punishment as a way to steer behaviour in line with our agreed upon standards of morality and law. An eternal punishment is unjust as it does not actually serve the purpose of punishment.
    Life is what happens to you while you're staring at your smartphone.

    Eternal Sunshine of the Religionless Mind
  • Re: Free will!!!
     Reply #34 - June 02, 2012, 12:30 PM
    That's not what punishment is, though. Punishment historically is a method of seeking redemption. The prison system is based on Christian principles.
  • Re: Free will!!!
     Reply #35 - June 02, 2012, 12:33 PM
    I understand that; what I'm saying is that idea is flawed as it serves no purpose other than to satiate society's desire for revenge. Punishment only makes sense if it can correct the behaviour of the individual. The minute that goes out the window punishment no longer makes sense.
    Life is what happens to you while you're staring at your smartphone.

    Eternal Sunshine of the Religionless Mind
  • Re: Free will!!!
     Reply #36 - June 02, 2012, 12:35 PM
    Sure. But my point is that punishment is based on the belief in free will. Without free will, it makes no sense to punish people. Therefore, the question of justice relies on the question of free will.
  • Re: Free will!!!
     Reply #37 - June 02, 2012, 12:36 PM
    That's a non sequitur. Punishment does make sense, however only when there is a possibility for rehabilitation.
    Life is what happens to you while you're staring at your smartphone.

    Eternal Sunshine of the Religionless Mind
  • Re: Free will!!!
     Reply #38 - June 02, 2012, 12:40 PM
    How is that a non sequitur? Huh?
  • Re: Free will!!!
     Reply #39 - June 02, 2012, 12:40 PM
    It doesn't follow that without free will there is no purpose to punish people. The problem is not the idea of punishment, it's the idea of redemption that needs to be scrapped.
    Life is what happens to you while you're staring at your smartphone.

    Eternal Sunshine of the Religionless Mind
  • Re: Free will!!!
     Reply #40 - June 02, 2012, 12:42 PM
    We're just going in circles now. I've already made my point.
  • Re: Free will!!!
     Reply #41 - June 02, 2012, 12:42 PM
    I'm still not sure what it is that you're arguing. Tongue
    Life is what happens to you while you're staring at your smartphone.

    Eternal Sunshine of the Religionless Mind
  • Re: Free will!!!
     Reply #42 - June 02, 2012, 12:43 PM
    Punishment is redemption. There's nothing to punishment beyond that. Rehabilitation is not punishment.
  • Re: Free will!!!
     Reply #43 - June 02, 2012, 12:44 PM
    My argument is that justice, and how to serve justice, relies on the question of free will.
  • Re: Free will!!!
     Reply #44 - June 02, 2012, 12:48 PM
    I disagree with your definition of the purpose of punishment, and I don't see how free will factors into the equation of whether or not an individual can be rehabilitated.
    Life is what happens to you while you're staring at your smartphone.

    Eternal Sunshine of the Religionless Mind
  • Re: Free will!!!
     Reply #45 - June 02, 2012, 12:53 PM
    You said: "Punishment only makes sense if it can correct the behaviour of the individual."

    That itself is a form of redemption. The individual seeks to redeem themselves, thus changing their behavior. A person with no free will cannot redeem themselves; they need intervention to change their behavior, either by changing the socioeconomic structure they exist in if the crime they committed is socioeconomic (eg. due to poverty), or medical intervention if the crime they committed is a result of mental illness (eg. psychopathy). It would not be possible for someone to redeem themselves for an action out of their control. A mentally ill person will continue to be mentally ill regardless of how much and how harshly you punish them.
  • Re: Free will!!!
     Reply #46 - June 02, 2012, 12:54 PM
    Quote from: Abood on June 02, 2012, 12:17 PM
    That's not what I said.

    Free will = total control of the self = inability for anyone to control your body/actions.


    I think freewill is a little more complex then your equation.

    You can have freewill and someone can force you or put you in a circumstance where you must do things outside of what you would freely choose to do. That doesn't negate your freewill for all time. It is only in that situation you have lost autonomy.  Later you can still choose how you are going to feel about the circumstance where you were forced into actions you would not have chosen freely. The more times in a persons live their freedom to make choices is taken from them in an abusive manner then the less ability they have to have good cooking skills but nonetheless they still have freewill. They still can make choices and determine how they will feel about the world around them.

    No doubt a lot more could be said on the subject.
    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Free will!!!
     Reply #47 - June 02, 2012, 01:03 PM
    Quote from: Abood on June 02, 2012, 12:53 PM
    You said: "Punishment only makes sense if it can correct the behaviour of the individual."

    That itself is a form of redemption. The individual seeks to redeem themselves, thus changing their behavior. A person with no free will cannot redeem themselves; they need intervention to change their behavior, either by changing the socioeconomic structure they exist in if the crime they committed is socioeconomic (eg. due to poverty), or medical intervention if the crime they committed is a result of mental illness (eg. psychopathy). It would not be possible for someone to redeem themselves for an action out of their control. A mentally ill person will continue to be mentally ill regardless of how much and how harshly you punish them.

    I see your point, and while I agree, I think you are viewing it too narrowly.
    Life is what happens to you while you're staring at your smartphone.

    Eternal Sunshine of the Religionless Mind
  • Re: Free will!!!
     Reply #48 - June 02, 2012, 01:03 PM
    According to Sunni theologians the way free will was squared was to say that Allah creates ALL your actions. From the most mundane to the most pioneering. This includes everything from taking a dump to building an aircraft or demolishing a skyscraper with thousands of people by flying an aircraft into it.

    What you are punished or rewarded for is something called the qasb which could be be roughly unpacked as the acquisition of actions according to your intentions. The reason for this is that full creative power is attributed to Allah. He creates, sustains and facilitates your action because this follows from His attributes. The responsibility lies with the one who instigates the action through his or her intention.
  • Re: Free will!!!
     Reply #49 - June 02, 2012, 01:15 PM
    Quote from: Solara on June 02, 2012, 12:33 PM
    I understand that; what I'm saying is that idea is flawed as it serves no purpose other than to satiate society's desire for revenge. Punishment only makes sense if it can correct the behaviour of the individual. The minute that goes out the window punishment no longer makes sense


    Maybe not.

    There are any number of people in prison who have committed very brutal crimes and they will get out and commit them again. Under the idea that punishment makes no sense if there is no rehabilitation these people shouldn't have been put in prison in the first place because they weren't going to change.
    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Free will!!!
     Reply #50 - June 02, 2012, 01:16 PM
    Having freedom to choose does not by default mean having free will. Free choice can exist even with determinism. But people can't have their wills controlled if their wills are free. Free will is a metaphysical question. If people had free will, it essentially means that they're ultimately responsible for all their actions.

    Quote
    Most philosophers suppose that the concept of free will is very closely connected to the concept of moral responsibility. Acting with free will, on such views, is just to satisfy the metaphysical requirement on being responsible for one's action. (Clearly, there will also be epistemic conditions on responsibility as well, such as being aware—or failing that, being culpably unaware—of relevant alternatives to one's action and of the alternatives' moral significance.) But the significance of free will is not exhausted by its connection to moral responsibility. Free will also appears to be a condition on desert for one's accomplishments (why sustained effort and creative work are praiseworthy); on the autonomy and dignity of persons; and on the value we accord to love and friendship. (See Kane 1996, 81ff. and Clarke 2003, Ch.1; but see also Pereboom 2001, Ch.7.)

    Philosophers who distinguish freedom of action and freedom of will do so because our success in carrying out our ends depends in part on factors wholly beyond our control. Furthermore, there are always external constraints on the range of options we can meaningfully try to undertake. As the presence or absence of these conditions and constraints are not (usually) our responsibility, it is plausible that the central loci of our responsibility are our choices, or “willings.”

    Standford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
  • Re: Free will!!!
     Reply #51 - June 02, 2012, 01:17 PM
    Quote from: Lynna on June 02, 2012, 01:15 PM
    Maybe not.

    There are any number of people in prison who have committed very brutal crimes and they will get out and commit them again. Under the idea that punishment makes no sense if there is no rehabilitation these people shouldn't have been put in prison in the first place because they weren't going to change.

    I agree. When it gets to that point it's no longer about punishment, but about protecting society.
    Life is what happens to you while you're staring at your smartphone.

    Eternal Sunshine of the Religionless Mind
  • Re: Free will!!!
     Reply #52 - June 18, 2012, 07:47 PM
    Quote from: Solara on June 02, 2012, 12:26 PM
    Are you saying that with free will rehabilitation is utterly impossible?

    I agree that the religious view of punishment is flawed, but I see punishment as a way to steer behaviour in line with our agreed upon standards of morality and law. An eternal punishment is unjust as it does not actually serve the purpose of punishment.


    1+
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