Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
Yesterday at 01:32 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
Yesterday at 09:01 AM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
Yesterday at 08:53 AM

New Britain
November 29, 2024, 08:17 AM

Gaza assault
by zeca
November 27, 2024, 07:13 PM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
November 24, 2024, 06:05 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
November 22, 2024, 06:45 AM

Marcion and the introduct...
by zeca
November 19, 2024, 11:36 PM

Dutch elections
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 10:11 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 08:46 PM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
November 07, 2024, 09:56 AM

The origins of Judaism
by zeca
November 02, 2024, 12:56 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: kids and innocence

 (Read 2779 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • kids and innocence
     OP - January 16, 2012, 01:55 AM

    I think a lot of people try hard to preserve the "innocence" of children, as if childhood innocence is an intrinsic good. I.e. we often do not want to expose children to the "harshness" of the world, try to keep them "sheltered" and do not correct them if they want to believe in an imaginary friend, santa, etc.. Moreover, we keep them from the reality of where "babies come from," Death, and other more subtle things (like the subjectivity of knowledge, or the fact that life does not have a happy ending -- though the germans do better than the americans on this front.)

    What are we trying to preserve here, and why? Something along the lines of, "ignorance is bliss," or are we trying to keep them from pain as long as possible?

    What is innocence, and is it something to be valued, for its own sake?

    (I reserve the right to ask an open-ended question, and then abandon the thread and never return. Deal with it Tongue )
  • Re: kids and innocence
     Reply #1 - January 16, 2012, 01:59 AM

    .
  • Re: kids and innocence
     Reply #2 - January 16, 2012, 02:35 AM

    ^^ along those lines ..
    i "protect" mine as best i can, but it's not about keeping the truth from them.. it's about revealing it at a time or age they can fully understand it..
    i can't tell a six year old the same "truths" i tell a 15 year old..
    keeping it real is one thing... but overwhelming them with reality is another
  • Re: kids and innocence
     Reply #3 - January 16, 2012, 02:42 AM

    .
  • Re: kids and innocence
     Reply #4 - January 16, 2012, 08:52 AM

    I'm not sure.  I've questioned myself before, especially in how I have dealt with sex talks with my kids, and I know that my inability (once) to be frank with them was not from a desire to portect them, it was from being raised that way myself.

    I actively worked to try to change that about me, and started being far more honest when they answered, and less stressed about it.

    But for me the only reason I could pinpoint as to why I did 'protect' them was just a learned way of parenting, not something I had examined.

    Of course this means I then swung to the opposite end of the spectrum, and was way too frank about things, and now I am learning about the 'stages' of knowledge and how i present it to them to try to counter balance to cold hard dose of reality, my 'freedom' helped me give to them.

    Santa died in this house, god died in this house, stories about princes and true love died in this house (don't want my little girl set up for disappointment).

    I feel like I robbed them of something though. 

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: kids and innocence
     Reply #5 - January 16, 2012, 10:11 AM

    That's sort of my question -- what do you think you "robbed" them of, and did you really?
  • Re: kids and innocence
     Reply #6 - January 16, 2012, 10:27 AM

    I don't think it's what is taken away. It's more what they are burdened with. All the bullshit fears, worries, angst, priorities, responsibilities. All the shitty baggage and monotany of adult life that we all try and shake off as often as possible, but takes effort.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: kids and innocence
     Reply #7 - January 16, 2012, 12:37 PM

    That's sort of my question -- what do you think you "robbed" them of, and did you really?


    I think it's idealisation of the way I used to see the world.  Once I was a child and even when things were at their worst I still had a childlike innocence that allowed me to hope for things that life has since taught me are fruitless to hold out for.

    So I guess I see the world through such negativity that I sometimes remember the way the world once looked and feel that I want my kids to still see the world that way for as long as possible.

    Life breeds cynicism and despair, hopelessness, all the things they don't feel overwhelmed by now (unless I take the ps3 away Grin ).

    How we confuse a simple sex talk with the shattering or loves illusions, and turning it into something meaty and lacking feeling, is where it gets a little stupid.  Grin

    I'm sure you can teach your kids about the facts of life without believing that it robs them of something.

    Its a good question you ask though. I will be musing on this for awhile now.   Afro

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: kids and innocence
     Reply #8 - January 28, 2012, 06:45 PM

    I think we as adults are always striving for this state of mind of happiness, but because of the way society has evolved and we have developed certain expectations and levels to be met to become happy, for example 'If I can make myself look as much like this girl....I will be happy' or 'If I can manage to be rich as this person...I will be happy'. It's comparison mentality we have. Usually the happier people don't have this mentality, they can objectively compare and it bears now weight on feeling of 'worth' or I imagine they focus more on aspects of themselves which they think they have the upper hand on.

    So, simply, we like the fact that children mostly seem happy and we want them to stay happy as much and as long as possible.

    Taking the scenario of a child in a loving home; children as we see have a tendency to just love living, exploring their surroundings and at that stage there's so much to know, it feels like there's infinite knowledge of truths (i mean the lack subjectivity) and belief that one is capable of absolutely anything, there's no limits because the child is still developing, unlike we adults who feel like we've stopped our journeys or have slowed down, mainly because of the system society has developed; 'You must fall in line, you must find a job, be 'useful', pay your taxes, bills, be sociably 'normal', fight the evilness prevalent in the world' and so on. In that sense children's innocence is seen as a form of 'pure' human state, so naturally a desirable quality to try and maintain, however we know for survival in modern times one cannot leave their child like that but supply them with 'tools' and perhaps these tools are dangerous unless integrated to their child tactfully, timely.

    The boundaries begin with safety (and maybe you could extend it to 'the physical reality' as THE first barrier, as we know our minds capable of so much more that the static of our immediate surroundings, then again for a child's mind probably not *note: do some research on child mental development*), you want them to be safe so you tell them not to touch the hot stove, for example, and there begins the list of rules that govern us. Children live life without any concept of these expectations until parents and their surroundings start putting the pressure on and pushing them into line of how a 'normal human' being should be in modern times.

    Children have hope, they don't set the limits and boundaries and don't see societal expectations and barriers, the world is their oyster.

    One of the greatest human quality - curiosity, progress happens with asking questions, and a child doesn't lack it hence they progress at an individual level.

    True freedom of the mind before brainwashing is when you are a child, before society taints your mind (I do realise that this happens from the get go, but you're not exposed to a huge level relatively (although with internet etc these days its nearly impossible to monitor external exposure) ). I'm talking in a fairly ideal sense, so don't take me too literally.

    You can take the saying 'The brightest stars burn the quickest' to apply here - the ones who are most curious and bold and breaking the rules.

    Has anyone desired to be allowed to just live? Has you felt that unless you're 'useful' to the system that you don't deserve to live? Who has taken the monopoly on the reason for living - the government, the big corporations? It's taken a life of it's own.

    Before civilisation was to do with sustaining yourself by growing your own food, making your own tools, sharing with your community and simple living. These times we're dependant on this thing called MONEY (reminds me of an interesting film called 'The Village'), perhaps money is the root of all evil, but perhaps money is also the necessary token for the system we have created. With globalisation especially the world realises there's so many people that you're just another statistic and then it becomes....

    EDITED TO ADD: I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE EFFECTS OF GLOBALISATION...AND CHANGING PEOPLES MENTALITY/WORLDVIEW ETC -_- GODDAMN IT, SPENT TOO LONG ON THIS, YAWNS, MAYBE ANOTHER TIME.

    Oh man! i lost track now... WAS A GOOD ROLL!! Cry

    It's also interesting how a 'numbers' game has become the driving force....Who can have the highest number in their account. Is mathematics more fundamental to our universe than we realise? Than just the tool for us the understand the worlds?

    I love maths^.^ - it's sooo the universal language..ok, im losing it now.

    The End.


    OK IM GOING TO ADJUST IT a bit AND REPOST

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: kids and innocence
     Reply #9 - January 28, 2012, 11:25 PM

    Quote
    In that sense children's innocence is seen as a form of 'pure' human state, so naturally a desirable quality to try and maintain, however we know for survival in modern times one cannot leave their child like that but supply them with 'tools' and perhaps these tools are dangerous unless integrated to their child tactfully, timely.


    I suppose that is true, though perhaps by "preserving their innocence" for so long, we should be teaching them this at a very young age so they grow up with the fundamental principle that they are in charge of their own lives, even when bad things happen. Also, when they learn the "happily ever after" scenario just isn't so, they will feel let down and disillusioned, instead of having a sense of knowing an acceptance all along.

    And it isn't just "bad" things -- things like sex are taboo as well and considered to be robbing someone of their innocence, for example.
  • Re: kids and innocence
     Reply #10 - January 29, 2012, 12:30 AM


    Before civilisation was to do with sustaining yourself by growing your own food, making your own tools, sharing with your community and simple living. These times we're dependant on this thing called MONEY (reminds me of an interesting film called 'The Village'), perhaps money is the root of all evil, but perhaps money is also the necessary token for the system we have created. With globalisation especially the world realises there's so many people that you're just another statistic and then it becomes....


    I think that is just place dead wrong.

    Money is just the tool you store value, you have something instead of exchanging ur 10 sheep for a cow which u won't need anyway u have money to do so and money holds value, u can take that value store and use it when u want to buy something else or do something else.

    I think money is one of the most brilliant inventions that has ever happened to society, inventions like Electricity, wheel and so on.

    Money is the most effective way of doing business without money business would be very hard and we would have lost a lot of value which can be stored and saved with money.

    Forget Globalization, money would be needed even without globalization, I think the invention of money was inevitable, it had to be invented and it has to exist plus it is perfectly natural globalization to happen and I don't think it is a bad thing, I think it is a very good thing, globalization brings a lot of benefits, of course it has its pros and cons but globalization is also inevitable.

    p.s: I love Math too, do you study mathematics Huh?

  • Re: kids and innocence
     Reply #11 - January 29, 2012, 06:24 AM

    I suppose that is true, though perhaps by "preserving their innocence" for so long, we should be teaching them this at a very young age so they grow up with the fundamental principle that they are in charge of their own lives, even when bad things happen. Also, when they learn the "happily ever after" scenario just isn't so, they will feel let down and disillusioned, instead of having a sense of knowing an acceptance all along.

    And it isn't just "bad" things -- things like sex are taboo as well and considered to be robbing someone of their innocence, for example.



    Hmmm, yeah I understand that, sex taboos as well - that probably mainly developed from religions...idk. I suppose the thing with sex is that there's a natural timing to humans to start becoming curious of the opposite sex (once they hit puberty), so...with the media grossly taking the sex factor of life out of proportion (IMO), parents would want to shelter their children.

    Adult mentality is different to the childs of course, the child develops in their own way to reach adulthood but modern times - the age range is really 18-28yr olds (i think, roughly)  are the focus of the networked world - tv, ads etc focusing on that group hugely in terms of consumer industry influencing them the most and sideatect is of that to leak to the those outside that range

    I think the disillusionment will happen anyway, whether they are allowed to believe in fairy tales or not, I think it's an innate sense for the child to tend to be positive/hopeful....but not sure...need more research on this.

    'In charge of thier own lives' - Although I have to say interesting idea. I wonder how adults being successful depend on whether they as a child who were introduced to the 'negatives' of the world earlier/not illusions with fairytales and those who were dillusioned later in on life (and would depend on the method of 'introducing the reality' of the world of course, probably other factors too).

    Maybe it is more natural/advantageous to be introduced to the negatives of the world, tactfully, from the get go.


    (been up all night...excuse me if i make no sense)



    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: kids and innocence
     Reply #12 - January 29, 2012, 06:31 AM

    I think that is just place dead wrong.

    Money is just the tool you store value, you have something instead of exchanging ur 10 sheep for a cow which u won't need anyway u have money to do so and money holds value, u can take that value store and use it when u want to buy something else or do something else.

    I think money is one of the most brilliant inventions that has ever happened to society, inventions like Electricity, wheel and so on.

    Money is the most effective way of doing business without money business would be very hard and we would have lost a lot of value which can be stored and saved with money.

    Forget Globalization, money would be needed even without globalization, I think the invention of money was inevitable, it had to be invented and it has to exist plus it is perfectly natural globalization to happen and I don't think it is a bad thing, I think it is a very good thing, globalization brings a lot of benefits, of course it has its pros and cons but globalization is also inevitable.

    p.s: I love Math too, do you study mathematics Huh?


    LOL, you should read the following few words to what you highlighted ...i said it is perhaps necessary for the system we have created....yes....its a method to manage civilisation, one can't trade sheeps for shoes any more....i'll get back to this later more probablly,.

    i studied physics.,


    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: kids and innocence
     Reply #13 - January 29, 2012, 11:36 AM

    @ Stardust:

    But there is no other way, this system or another system money would still be the perfect tool for business and storing value, the only time when we wouldn't need would be if the resources were unlimited and if humans lived forever.

    Money is a tool, and it is not fair to blame the tool for what people do for it, it is like killing someone and blaming the gun.

  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »