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 Topic: Warsi & Abrahamic mythologies

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  • Warsi & Abrahamic mythologies
     OP - February 24, 2012, 03:34 PM

    I thought I'd post this article here - it takes a somewhat, slightly positive perspective on the whole Warsi fiasco.

    ======================


    The problem in public life isn't Islam, but religion itself
    By Doug Sanders
    February 18, 2012
    From Saturday's Globe and Mail
    Perhaps Britain will follow Ontario's lead and relegate faith to where it works best - as private enlightenment


    We always knew it could happen: A devout Muslim heads a conservative political party that takes office in a multicultural Western country, then leads a campaign to enforce mandatory prayer and to lobby for religious-based values and laws. How will people react?

    Well, it happened in Britain this week, and here's how they reacted: Judges and leading thinkers fought back in the name of a secular state, but the Queen, the Pope and Britain's right-wing newspapers all spoke up in support of the Muslim party leader's campaign.

    This was because the leader in question is Baroness Warsi, chairman of the Conservative Party and a senior minister in David Cameron's government. She's a popular figure among Tories and an entertaining personality who frequently appears on British TV. She's also a devout Muslim, a faith-based cultural conservative and a staunch defender of religion's role in public life.

    Her campaign began Monday, after Britain's High Court ruled that the practice of holding prayers during municipal council meetings is unconstitutional (as, by extension, may be those held during sittings of the House of Commons). Prayer, the judge ruled, is a private matter that has no place in the formal proceedings of a legal assembly.

    The Baroness shot back, saying her country is falling prey to "militant secularization" and arguing that religious belief should be "a voice in the public sphere." She went to Rome and met the Pope, who appeared to give her arguments his blessing. Religion, she said, should be a basis of public life: "To create a more just society, Britons must feel stronger in their religious identities."

    Right-leaning newspapers laid on the two-inch headlines known by insiders as "Jesus type" and backed her: "Britain being taken over by 'militant secularists,' " screamed The Daily Telegraph. The Daily Mail and The Times used their front pages to charge that religion was "under attack" and "on the rack." Then the Queen joined in, using a meeting with representatives of nine major religions to make the case: "We should remind ourselves of the significant position of the Church of England in our nation's life."

    Only months before, many of those newspapers (and some Tory MPs) were expressing equally loud alarm at the prospect of Muslim prayer rooms in universities or the existence of sharia divorce tribunals. Now, in the face of secularism, they're taking the opposite position. In the fast-moving heart of the religion wars, you can feel the ground shifting beneath your feet.

    In truth, no one is calling for a religious state or attacking faith. Rather, we are witnessing a showdown, across the West, between two competing definitions of "freedom of religion." In one definition, the public sphere is a wide-open space: Citizens are free to try to impose religion, to invoke their gods in legislation, to wear whatever symbols they like. It's a marketplace of beliefs, and may the strongest prevail.

    In the other definition, that sphere is a neutral space: Religion is private and public places are unencumbered by competitions for divine supremacy. This definition recognizes that freedom of religion depends on a strongly defended freedom from religion. And freedom from religion is just as important for non-believers, who don't want public life to be corrupted with spiritualism, as it is for devout believers, who don't want their sacred beliefs to be sullied by the vicissitudes of politics.

    Baroness Warsi's intervention is a positive development for both sides. On the religious free-for-all side, she has shown that Muslims can join the other two Abrahamic religions in pressing for privileges without being accused of engaging in a "clash of civilizations." At the same time, she helps people realize that the problem in public life isn't Islam but religion itself.

    Britain might follow the lead of Ontario, where public outcry over proposed Muslim sharia tribunals led the government to realize that Christians and Jews had been allowed similar religious-based tribunals, and that the whole thing was a bad idea. By putting an end to the practice of religious law, Ontario relegated religion to the place it works best, as a philosophy of private enlightenment (if only the same could be done for schools).

    We're entering an age when Muslims are no longer seen as alien outsiders but as ordinary participants in public life. If earlier public hysteria over their beliefs had a benefit, though, it was in making us all realize the value of a neutral, secular public life.

    source


    ======================

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Warsi & Abrahamic mythologies
     Reply #1 - February 24, 2012, 03:43 PM

    Quote
    "To create a more just society, Britons must feel stronger in their religious identities."


    This really is stupid nonsense that she uttered ^^^

    Get it - the definition of 'just society' is contingent on 'religious identity'

    Utter mendacious shit.

    The more I think about all this, the more I lose whatever respect I had for her at all.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Warsi & Abrahamic mythologies
     Reply #2 - February 24, 2012, 03:46 PM

    Yeah obviously a very privileged and very stupid woman, this Warsi. Roll Eyes

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Warsi & Abrahamic mythologies
     Reply #3 - February 24, 2012, 03:57 PM



    You'd think that all the gains made in British society since the end of WW2 in which every piece of social advancement through legislation and through liberalising attitudes and the activism of civil society across the board, from class mobility, womens rights, childrens rights, racial equality, gay liberation, the struggle against injustice and bigotry, the opening up of higher education, the refinement of the welfare state, the wonder that is the National Health Service........all of these achieved by generation after generation of progressive change, organisation, hand in hand with a secularisation that broke down the reactionary glue in society and led to an atmosphere in free speech and free conscience and the rights of the individual were at last privileged over collectives of every kind............yes secularisation made this possible and was at the heart of this.......no, according to Warsi none of that is relevant.....none of that is 'just'.........we do not have a 'just society' until 'religious identity' is priveliged again, so that 'confident religious identity' becomes the hallmark or how 'just' this society that opened its arms to millions of immigrants and built one of the most liberal, cosmopolitan, free, societies in the world that places at its centre the striving for equality of opportunity all achieved through the fight for secularisation and against belligerent in-your-face 'religious identity', all of that is bullshit because Warsi says none of these things are signs of a 'just society', only fucking religious identity being elevated as the raison d'etre of a society in service of that can be 'just'

    Warsi just seems like a creep to me now, you just know there is something on the tip of her tongue that she can't bring herself to say!


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Warsi & Abrahamic mythologies
     Reply #4 - February 24, 2012, 04:01 PM


    If you define 'just' as whatever is good for 'religion', you denigrate whatever is at odds with 'religious identity', thats why she hates secularism, thats why she talks shit about 'militant secularists', thats why all that we have achieved is secondary to the search for justice for religious identity.

    She's fucking transparent.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Warsi & Abrahamic mythologies
     Reply #5 - February 24, 2012, 04:09 PM

    It's just inevitable that religious fundoos of all sorts will eventually realize they have more in common than not. Then the fundie bible thumpers and the fundie muzzies will get together... I think Warsi is just an early example that this is already happening. They may not agree on whose god is true or superior, but they can agree on so many other things like:
    -The poor are poor because of fate and should just be happy with their lot.
    -The richest and most powerful have a divine mandate to stay that way.
    -Women should not have control over their own reproductive systems
    -LGBTQ should be forced via laws and medicine and socio-economic punishments to live in the closet forever, or be executed
    -Non-religious people or people who are of other non-abrahamic religions are to be forced to convert or pay an extra tax (jizya).
    -Apostates would still be punished as apostates represent "mutually assured destruction" to all mythological cults.
    -Adultery, premarital sex etc. are to be punished with flogging/stoning/executions.
    -Circumcision is to be made mandatory.
    -Women and children are to once again be the chattel, the property of the male elites.
    -Religious institutions must decide what laws to enact and who to punish and how.

    And a host of other things... This, I'm sure, Warsi, the Pope and the Queen are all in favour of. Roll Eyes

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Warsi & Abrahamic mythologies
     Reply #6 - February 24, 2012, 07:44 PM

    It's just inevitable that religious fundoos of all sorts will eventually realize they have more in common than not. Then the fundie bible thumpers and the fundie muzzies will get together...

    It has already happened years ago. I'd have to go looking for the details, as from memory it was over a decade back, but there was (I think) a UN conference that was discussing family planning. Representatives of the Catholic church joined up with the Islamic clerics and the US fundie Protestants to stymie any resolutions in favour of control of reproduction, and especially women controlling it. liberals at the time dubbed this unholy alliance "The Axis of Medieval".

    Found some details: http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Axis:of:medieval.html

    Quote
    The term Axis of Medieval was coined by activists as a parody of the phrase " Axis of Evil." Critics of the policies of George W. Bush use the term, half jokingly, to describe efforts used by the United States to insert a " conservative" political agenda into negotiations to draft international treaties for humanitarian causes.

    Political moves seen as encouraging the use of "axis of medieval" have included actions taken in 2002 to cut off $34M in funding for the United Nations Population Fund, due to concerns that some of the money was used to fund abortions. On this issue, the United States became an ally of fundamentalist Islamic regimes in countries such as Iran and Syria, united in opposition to the majority of Western countries, who favoured the liberal point of view.



    Quote
    I think Warsi is just an early example that this is already happening. They may not agree on whose god is true or superior, but they can agree on so many other things like:

    -Adultery, premarital sex etc. are to be punished with flogging/stoning/executions.
    -Circumcision is to be made mandatory.

    And a host of other things... This, I'm sure, Warsi, the Pope and the Queen are all in favour of. Roll Eyes

    On the above two points, no. Those aren't part of Catholic or Protestant doctrine. Wink

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Warsi & Abrahamic mythologies
     Reply #7 - February 24, 2012, 07:53 PM

    On the above two points, no. Those aren't part of Catholic or Protestant doctrine. Wink


    Doesn't matter cos they be fightin' them vile heathens and atheists... once these fundoos get together, they'll have to appease each other. If anything, it'll be interesting to see how they try to get along with their "interfaith" initiatives considering their deep running differences of opinions on these and many other matters.
     popcorn

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Warsi & Abrahamic mythologies
     Reply #8 - February 24, 2012, 07:55 PM

    Grin I once heard interfaith dialogue described as "I wont call you on your bullshit if you don't call me on my bullshit".

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Warsi & Abrahamic mythologies
     Reply #9 - February 24, 2012, 07:58 PM

    Someone oughta break up the Warsi-Pope-Queen circle jerk by simply asking Was or Was not Jesus the Son of God - wrong answer lands them on the divine BBQ grill. Let's see how much they get along when someone does call them on their bullshit.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Warsi & Abrahamic mythologies
     Reply #10 - February 24, 2012, 08:01 PM

    These fuckers want religion in public life? Let's have at it. Warsi and Pope debate to the death about the divinity of Jesus. I'd pay a few bucks to see that. What? Don't wanna discuss contentious matters in public? Then shouldn't have brought it up assholes.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Warsi & Abrahamic mythologies
     Reply #11 - February 24, 2012, 08:02 PM

    I've just read her full speech to the pope:

    http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/news/baroness-warsi-speech-holy-see

    This is where the strong religious identity stuff fits in:
    Her argument is basically that when people lack confidence in their beliefs, they see outsiders as a threat to their strength of belief and division ensues. If they believe strongly, they are unafraid of other faiths, can build intercommunity dialogue...and working together, they can stand up against the evil secularists.

    Finally towards the end she does try to attack secularism directly. Claiming that one faction wants to create a level playing field for all faiths (by church disestablishment, presumably), she says this secularism makes it impossible for believers to express their faith (or whatever she means by "Its terrain is all but impassable to anyone of belief.").

    She's right, removal of privilege would make it harder to get away with some things! With an established CofE to back them up, all the Abrahamic faiths have a better chance of forcing their beliefs on others and maintaining privilege.

    The other faction, secular intolerance, she says is "attempting to remove all trace of religion from culture, history and public discourse" because of fear of civilisation regressing into theocracy. Maybe some, but secularism isn't about going that far.

    Near the end she calls for faith's "seat at the table" in politics. She says people should be allowed into policy debate when their arguments are derived from their faith. Fine, who says they shouldn't? But, then she leaps to defending the special privilage of reserved places for bishops in the house of lords!

    The whole thing is essentially, be confident in your faiths and work together to defeat the secularists!
  • Re: Warsi & Abrahamic mythologies
     Reply #12 - February 24, 2012, 08:04 PM

    Yeah defeat the secularists and get privileged women like Warsi back in the kitchen barefoot and pregnant rah rah rah!

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Warsi & Abrahamic mythologies
     Reply #13 - February 24, 2012, 08:17 PM

    These fuckers want religion in public life? Let's have at it. Warsi and Pope debate to the death about the divinity of Jesus. I'd pay a few bucks to see that. What? Don't wanna discuss contentious matters in public? Then shouldn't have brought it up assholes.

    That would be fun. We should email them and see if they're up for it. Grin

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Warsi & Abrahamic mythologies
     Reply #14 - February 24, 2012, 08:19 PM

    I said it before and its as plain as day - her motivation is to bait Christians into entering identity-politics grievance so that Muslims are not alone in that game.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Warsi & Abrahamic mythologies
     Reply #15 - February 24, 2012, 08:20 PM

    I once heard interfaith dialogue described as "I wont call you on your bullshit if you don't call me on my bullshit".


     Grin

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Warsi & Abrahamic mythologies
     Reply #16 - February 24, 2012, 08:23 PM

    If they believe strongly, they are unafraid of other faiths, can build intercommunity dialogue...and working together, they can stand up against the evil secularists.


    Yes, because the stronger the belief, the less suspicion and fear of 'the other' there is. This really is a mathematical formula that has been proven across time and history eh Sayeeda.

    She really is delusional.

    Nobody has called her out properly on this yet, at least that I have seen so far. There have been some polite rejoinders, but nobody has given her the true evisceration she deserves.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Warsi & Abrahamic mythologies
     Reply #17 - February 24, 2012, 08:28 PM

    True evisceration contravenes modern ethical standards, as satisfying as it might be. Wink

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Warsi & Abrahamic mythologies
     Reply #18 - February 24, 2012, 08:38 PM

    Yes, because the stronger the belief, the less suspicion and fear of 'the other' there is. This really is a mathematical formula that has been proven across time and history eh Sayeeda.

    She really is delusional.

    Nobody has called her out properly on this yet, at least that I have seen so far. There have been some polite rejoinders, but nobody has given her the true evisceration she deserves.




    Indeed (I mentioned this problem when I originally typed my post, but decided it was too long so left it out!). Level-headed folks who are confident in their beliefs can and do find common ground and manage not call each other on their bullshit. It depends a lot on the actual beliefs that are held with firm conviction, and the individual personality. It can indeed increase sectarianism, fear and hatred. We need look no further than a certain prophet in the 7th century!

  • Re: Warsi & Abrahamic mythologies
     Reply #19 - February 24, 2012, 08:46 PM

    Indeed (I mentioned this problem when I originally typed my post, but decided it was too long so left it out!). Level-headed folks who are confident in their beliefs can and do find common ground and manage not call each other on their bullshit. It depends a lot on the actual beliefs that are held with firm conviction, and the individual personality. It can indeed increase sectarianism, fear and hatred. We need look no further than a certain prophet in the 7th century!


    It's more like those folks realize they believe in bullshit; they are level-headed not in their beliefs but in knowing that calling out other people's bullshit beliefs would shine a light on their own bullshit beliefs. That's fine with me... believe in all the bullshit you want. Just keep it out of public life, keep it off of my body. If not, then the public and I reserve the right to call you on your bullshit cause you brought it out of the private sphere yourself.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Warsi & Abrahamic mythologies
     Reply #20 - February 24, 2012, 08:49 PM

    Agreed more or less (though I'm not sure they know they believe in bs). The common ground she's actually concerned with them finding seems to be the identity politics as Billy puts it. As for the other stuff I doubt she cares much more than we do.
  • Re: Warsi & Abrahamic mythologies
     Reply #21 - February 24, 2012, 08:50 PM

    Yep. Fuck Identity Politics.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Warsi & Abrahamic mythologies
     Reply #22 - February 24, 2012, 08:51 PM

    She just wants more clout for Islam, and is hoping to hitch a ride on Christianity for now.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Warsi & Abrahamic mythologies
     Reply #23 - February 24, 2012, 09:59 PM

    I really hope Warsi or one of her interfaith chamchas (sycophants) is reading this thread. banana dance

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Warsi & Abrahamic mythologies
     Reply #24 - February 25, 2012, 02:07 AM

    Her argument is basically that when people lack confidence in their beliefs, they see outsiders as a threat to their strength of belief and division ensues. If they believe strongly, they are unafraid of other faiths, can build intercommunity dialogue...and working together, they can stand up against the evil secularists.

    Yeah, we saw how people being extremely sure their beliefs are an absolute truth can never be violent against people that hold totally different beliefs.
    Oh, wait…
  • Re: Warsi & Abrahamic mythologies
     Reply #25 - February 25, 2012, 06:55 AM

    Britain is a great place and all, but you guys really need a written constitution.

    Pendulums swing both ways, and you're going to need some protection if the religious get more influence.

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Warsi & Abrahamic mythologies
     Reply #26 - February 25, 2012, 07:31 AM

    The comment Billy quoted stunk so much of that old Cameron chestnut (big society) which in turn reminded me of another Tory principle ('fuck you mr squeezed working taxpayer, don't ask the government for help, help yourself'). Anyway, I'm starting to think this may be a grand Tory distraction from the economy, don't get me wrong-I'm not conspiracy minded at all-but the Tories have played the distraction game quite often since they were elected. 'Big society', 'happiness index', 'multiculturalism has failed', 'muscular liberalism' and then (just before Millionairess Warsi started this crap) there was Cameron telling the world that 'Britain is a Christian nation'.

    Anyone else think this may just be about more than simply 'one woman's madness'?

    "Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

    What apple stores are like.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QmZWv-eBI
  • Re: Warsi & Abrahamic mythologies
     Reply #27 - February 25, 2012, 07:39 AM

    You mean the whole Tory Party might be bonkers? Yeah.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Warsi & Abrahamic mythologies
     Reply #28 - February 25, 2012, 07:44 AM

    I mean they might be professional politicians who pray on the ignorance on the masses. Just like a parent getting out his keys to distract the baby.

    "Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

    What apple stores are like.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QmZWv-eBI
  • Re: Warsi & Abrahamic mythologies
     Reply #29 - February 25, 2012, 07:46 AM

    I was sort of joking, but I still like my theory. It could be a distraction. I don't know enough about the current political situation in the UK to know if they'd be desperate for a distraction right now.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
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