Islam and the Future of Liberalism

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Islam and the Future of Liberalism - Sam Harris
OP - March 16, 2012, 02:26 PM

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/islam-and-the-future-of-liberalism

thoughts ?
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Re: Islam and the Future of Liberalism - Sam Harris
Reply #1 - March 16, 2012, 03:26 PM

I don't think, there will be liberalism in my country, despite the moderate Islamic title it carries.

The goverment moderate muslim political figure in my country are generally corrupt.

The opposition parties carries hudud on their back while propositioning fairness treatment for all group of ethnic and religious bodies- yeah right ex-muslim still get punished.

nope, don't think so it will happen in my country in my lifetime, when ex-muslim still treated as a muslim and get punished for escaping from islamic claws.

anybody want to share idea on how it could be done ?
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Re: Islam and the Future of Liberalism - Sam Harris
Reply #2 - March 16, 2012, 03:54 PM

Quote from: serpentofeden on March 16, 2012, 02:26 PM
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/islam-and-the-future-of-liberalism

thoughts ?

Summary for those who don't have time to read it:

Many liberals (except Sam) are so stoopid they think Islam is good and so they, like, don't support Israel and American foreign policy, which is not supporting anti-israeli muslims. End.

Thoughts:

Very good. (<-sarcasm, of course)

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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Re: Islam and the Future of Liberalism - Sam Harris
Reply #3 - March 18, 2012, 12:17 AM

Quote from: serpentofeden on March 16, 2012, 02:26 PM
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/islam-and-the-future-of-liberalism

thoughts ?

I skip read it. I would suggest that it is the Creation Of Israel AND American Foreign Policy in the Middle East that has given rise to 'Islamism'. Or certainely played a pivotal role.

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: Islam and the Future of Liberalism - Sam Harris
Reply #4 - March 18, 2012, 12:24 AM

Yup, just like those zionists did earlier by creating AbdulWahhab (the secret jew).

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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Re: Islam and the Future of Liberalism - Sam Harris
Reply #5 - March 18, 2012, 12:43 AM

I am not sure if you are being sarcastic. I will treat it as such.

By islamism i meant the radicle, self-exploding kind.

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: Islam and the Future of Liberalism - Sam Harris
Reply #6 - March 18, 2012, 12:47 AM

BTW, do you blame everything on the creation of Israel? It seems so. Not that I am necessarily pro (nor anti) Israel, but it seems to come up, A LOT, in your posts.

"Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

What apple stores are like.....

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Re: Islam and the Future of Liberalism - Sam Harris
Reply #7 - March 18, 2012, 12:56 AM

^^

Lol - it may seem that way. Honestly I can talk about loadsa other stuff. I did not start this thread. I do feel that with my posts on the topic, that I am (trying) bringing something new to the table.

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: Islam and the Future of Liberalism - Sam Harris
Reply #8 - March 18, 2012, 12:58 AM

And before creation of Israel Islam spread only in it's most peaceful sufi forms from Yathrib to India and Maghreb with the speed of lightening as people who practiced their old beliefs for ages where overwhelmed with the bright light of Islam while their hearts opened to the message of peace (despite not speaking arabic or not being allowed to touch the Koran even if literate until conversion). Yeah I'm freaking sarcastic and you should treat it as such.

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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Re: Islam and the Future of Liberalism - Sam Harris
Reply #9 - March 18, 2012, 01:06 AM

I am not talking about medieval times. My emphasis has been the rise of islamic fundamentalism circa 1980's onwards. It was relatively peaceful prior to that. Think medieval times was your usual empire-building shit, greedy people wanting more and more land etc.

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: Islam and the Future of Liberalism - Sam Harris
Reply #10 - March 18, 2012, 01:08 AM

Israel was founded in 1948

And you're right, Islam has risen in aggression and practice since the 80s, I've had this conversation with many Muslims who all seem to pinpoint it to the late 70s, early 80s.

I wonder what the trigger was, what could have happened between late 70s, early 80s, maybe something in 1979? I don't know-answers on a postcard

"Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

What apple stores are like.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QmZWv-eBI
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Re: Islam and the Future of Liberalism - Sam Harris
Reply #11 - March 18, 2012, 01:10 AM

With all due respect to you it seems you could benefit from the basics, here, have a read of this wiki article

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_revival

"Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

What apple stores are like.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QmZWv-eBI
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Re: Islam and the Future of Liberalism - Sam Harris
Reply #12 - March 18, 2012, 01:28 AM

I am an athiest.

Israel is pertinent to the story because that story was islamified in the late-eighties, even though it began way before. Plus American foreign policy is also tied in to protection of Israel. The Mujahideen/general Zia being part of a seperate strand of American foreign policy also occured independent to the Iranian revolution. But yes, fella, I am willing to be enlightened.

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: Islam and the Future of Liberalism - Sam Harris
Reply #13 - March 18, 2012, 01:37 AM

Sprout - read the wiki link.

An opposition to westernization and oil figure highly. Well both have American influence one way or another.

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: Islam and the Future of Liberalism - Sam Harris
Reply #14 - March 18, 2012, 01:37 AM

I consider myself an expert on Islamic groups, so I'll weigh in, I've even visited the grave of Abdullah Azzam

Modern political Islam has been on the rise ever since the fall of the Ottoman Caliphate. The founder of the MB, Hassan Al-Banna, Ayman Al-Zawahris grandfather*, Jamaat e Islami/creation of Pakistan was the first phase. The second phase was the change in the ideology, the Qutbists, siege of Mecca, the torture chambers of the Arab world filling up with Islamists that turned those Islamists into Jihadists. That led to the third phase, despotic Arab regimes and their western freedom loving friends could export the Islamic pests to Afghanistan, the likes of Abdullah Azzam could emphasise the importance of Jihad-not only against the commies but the Israelis, US (even in the US itself) The fourth phase was the exporting of the Afghan jihad to Kashmir, Balkans, Algeria, Palestine and so on. The fifth is the "war on terror" which branded every Islamic group using violence (most of the time in self-defence) as being the same as Al-Qaeda. This led to such groups being radicalised more and allying themselves with Al-Qaeda and becoming its franchises.

* I'd like to learn more about his grandfather, from what I know he was the sheikh of Al-Azhar, first person to translate Allama Iqbals work into Arabic and declared that as long as Saudi existed the Caliphate wouldn't return. If anyone has any links or info, please pass it on and help me fill my thirst/obsession of politics in the muslim world. Do I sound like a 21 yr old girl?
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Re: Islam and the Future of Liberalism - Sam Harris
Reply #15 - March 18, 2012, 01:49 AM

Political Islam and its constancy means that there are so many strands within Islam alive to the old vision of Islam as a conquering, organising, supreme and inviolable code of imperial domination / dominion in the modern world.

They see themselves as the conscience and flame holders of Islam, and their Islam is not a benign thing. Its red in tooth and claw.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Islam and the Future of Liberalism - Sam Harris
Reply #16 - March 18, 2012, 01:51 AM

Aprodite - Here endeth the lesson.

One question - what caused the change in ideology, the basis for what you call second phase?

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: Islam and the Future of Liberalism - Sam Harris
Reply #17 - March 18, 2012, 01:53 AM

Quote from: Sprout on March 18, 2012, 01:08 AM
Israel was founded in 1948

And you're right, Islam has risen in aggression and practice since the 80s, I've had this conversation with many Muslims who all seem to pinpoint it to the late 70s, early 80s.

I wonder what the trigger was, what could have happened between late 70s, early 80s, maybe something in 1979? I don't know-answers on a postcard

Panic.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: Islam and the Future of Liberalism - Sam Harris
Reply #18 - March 18, 2012, 02:01 AM

You know, I think that the Shia frenzy in Iran in 1979 must have had a profound effect on Sunni Islam on a competitive level. There always has been and always will be this. They are like Real Madrid and Barcelona, or Manchester United and Liverpool, obsessed and anxious about the other, competing for believers and domination and trophies and size and scale and influence.

The seizing of power by the Shia ascendancy both frightened, exhilarated and focussed the keepers of the Sunni flame. Suddenly, an entire state bent to the will of Shia mullahocracy. And so this competitive electrification occurred.

Just one component of a multifaceted phenomenon, but significant all the same.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: Islam and the Future of Liberalism - Sam Harris
Reply #19 - March 18, 2012, 02:06 AM

"Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
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Re: Islam and the Future of Liberalism - Sam Harris
Reply #20 - March 18, 2012, 02:12 AM

Quote from: billy on March 18, 2012, 01:49 AM
Political Islam and its constancy means that there are so many strands within Islam alive to the old vision of Islam as a conquering, organising, supreme and inviolable code of imperial domination / dominion in the modern world.

They see themselves as the conscience and flame holders of Islam, and their Islam is not a benign thing. Its red in tooth and claw.

Agreed. There's a hadith that says every 100 yrs or so Allah sends a sort of redeemer (s) that revives the Ummah. I was told the likes of Salahuddin and Hassan Al-Banna were those redeemers and that the last one was Malcolm X. I wonder who's next

Quote from: billy on March 18, 2012, 02:01 AM
You know, I think that the Shia frenzy in Iran in 1979 must have had a profound effect on Sunni Islam on a competitive level. There always has been and always will be this. They are like Real Madrid and Barcelona, or Manchester United and Liverpool, obsessed and anxious about the other, competing for believers and domination and trophies and size and scale and influence.

The seizing of power by the Shia ascendancy both frightened, exhilarated and focussed the keepers of the Sunni flame. Suddenly, an entire state bent to the will of Shia mullahocracy. And so this competitive electrification occurred.

Just one component of a multifaceted phenomenon, but significant all the same.

The Iranian revolution certainly made the Saudis support Sunni Islamists whenever it could. From 80s Afghanistan to todays Syria. I think people underestimate the hate/rivalry between the two. Ever since Mo died the ummah has been fighting over who leads. The Ottoman-safavid wars etc. There's a few famous anti-shia quotes said by prominent sunni scholars. One of them is something about throwing 9 arrows at the Persians (shia) and only one at the Romans (xristian Europe) One good thing is that its the rivalry that helped keep Persian culture.
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Re: Islam and the Future of Liberalism - Sam Harris
Reply #21 - March 18, 2012, 02:16 AM

Quote from: devilsadvokat on March 18, 2012, 01:51 AM
Aprodite - Here endeth the lesson.

One question - what caused the change in ideology, the basis for what you call second phase?

Lack of success I'd guess. The MB failed even with the help of MI6 -_- The likes of Nasser and Saddam were popular enough with the people to keep the Islamists away. The 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s were epic failures for Islamists. Saudi, Jordan, Palestine, Afghanistan and most of the muslim world was far liberal then than it is today.
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Re: Islam and the Future of Liberalism - Sam Harris
Reply #22 - March 18, 2012, 02:21 AM

Quote from: Aphrodite on March 18, 2012, 02:12 AM

I think people underestimate the hate/rivalry between the two. Ever since Mo died the ummah has been fighting over who leads.

Of course. And that is the reason why the Sunni states will privately be overjoyed if Israel or America de-fangs Iran's nuclear programme.

Quote
and that the last one was Malcolm X.

He's the redeemer for the hipsters and those who want Islam to be the fourth pillar of Hip-Hop, after rap, graffiti and breakdancing *everything is Islam*

Maulana Maududi is the true redeeming Godzilla of the 20th Century, surely.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: Islam and the Future of Liberalism - Sam Harris
Reply #23 - March 18, 2012, 03:46 PM

Quote from: billy on March 18, 2012, 02:21 AM
Of course. And that is the reason why the Sunni states will privately be overjoyed if Israel or America de-fangs Iran's nuclear programme.

Yup, even sunnis who aren't pro-Saudi/US will be glad if Iran is attacked. Hence sunni extremists in Iran being covertly supported.

Quote from: billy on March 18, 2012, 02:21 AM
He's the redeemer for the hipsters and those who want Islam to be the fourth pillar of Hip-Hop, after rap, graffiti and breakdancing *everything is Islam*

Maulana Maududi is the true redeeming Godzilla of the 20th Century, surely.

Some salafi groups use him to spread their dawah too. I was never a fan of Maududi, maybe that's coz I resisted my uncles attempts to get me to read more of his works. I found him to be too much onto the religious/'theological' side of Islam rather than modern politics so I idolised other Islamic figures instead.
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Re: Islam and the Future of Liberalism - Sam Harris
Reply #24 - March 18, 2012, 07:45 PM

He fused the theological and political so completely that he basically defined Islamism from Pakistan though. His view was that theology and politics are not even inseparable, that would suggest they are two different things holding hands. He believed and preached that theology is politics, they are one entity.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: Islam and the Future of Liberalism - Sam Harris
Reply #25 - March 18, 2012, 10:31 PM

wasnt it the ayatollah who made islamism re-emerge?
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Re: Islam and the Future of Liberalism - Sam Harris
Reply #26 - March 18, 2012, 10:34 PM

^ On a state level, yes.
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