100,000 women in UK subject to FGM

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100,000 women in UK subject to FGM
OP - April 23, 2012, 09:09 AM

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9219217/100000-British-women-mutilated.html

Quote
100,000 British women mutilated
As many as 100,000 women in Britain have undergone female genital mutilations with medics in the UK offering to carry out the illegal procedure on girls as young as 10, it has been reported.

Investigators from The Sunday Times said they secretly filmed a doctor, dentist and alternative medicine practitioner who were allegedly willing to perform circumcisions or arrange for the operation to be carried out.

The doctor and dentist deny any wrongdoing.

The practice, which involves the surgical removal of external genitalia and in some cases the stitching of the vaginal opening, is illegal in Britain and carries up to a 14 year prison sentence.

It is also against the law to arrange FGM.

Known as "cutting", the procedure is traditionally carried out for cultural reasons and is widespread across Africa.

It is thought to be needed as proof of a girl's "purity" for when she marries, but victims are rarely given anaesthetic and frequently suffer long-term damage and pain.
....

Supermodel Waris Dirie, who was mutilated as a child, is a vociferous opponent of the practice.

Calling for a crackdown on FGM, she said: "If a white girl is abused, the police come break down the door. If a black girl is mutilated, nobody takes care of her. This is what I call racism."

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Re: 100,000 women in UK subject to FGM
Reply #1 - April 23, 2012, 10:26 AM

don't know what to say.
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Re: 100,000 women in UK subject to FGM
Reply #2 - April 23, 2012, 10:32 AM

Many many years ago I was at this meeting at the House of Commons when an older hijabed woman stood up and said how important it was that this was done....

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

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Re: 100,000 women in UK subject to FGM
Reply #3 - April 23, 2012, 10:34 AM

Tell us more
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Re: 100,000 women in UK subject to FGM
Reply #4 - April 23, 2012, 10:36 AM

Quote from: moi on April 23, 2012, 10:32 AM
Many many years ago I was at this meeting at the House of Commons when an older hijabed woman stood up and said how important it was that this was done....

Was it a Somali woman? Not that its relevant. Just asking.

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Re: 100,000 women in UK subject to FGM
Reply #5 - April 23, 2012, 12:25 PM

Yep, but I also met superb Somali doctors, nurses and health workers.

I would rather others continued this thread as I might be identifiable!

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Re: 100,000 women in UK subject to FGM
Reply #6 - April 23, 2012, 12:38 PM

Surely the reason why this issue isn't prosecuted fully is because its difficult if not impossible to get those who have undergone it to testify against their parents - which child is going to do that when it means ostracism from their family? To prosecute or convict anyone will be extremely difficult for this amongst other reasons.

It can only be good that it is being brought to light though. Need the affected communities to open up and discuss it - all the attention the issue gets should be for the aim of facilitating that discussion.

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Re: 100,000 women in UK subject to FGM
Reply #7 - April 23, 2012, 01:39 PM

I do wonder do not teachers, school nurses see behaviour changes and carry out discreet investigations? I would be suspicious about girls going on holiday to some places on principle.

Then it is nothing to do with the child reporting on their parents.

But is the issue that the children's homes and foster carers could not cope so this mass child abuse is ignored?

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

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Re: 100,000 women in UK subject to FGM
Reply #8 - April 23, 2012, 01:42 PM

Quote from: Al-Ma`arri on April 23, 2012, 10:36 AM
Was it a Somali woman? Not that its relevant. Just asking.

I've said a few times on here that every summer holidays in London SW6 (a nice area), I'd see little Somali girls waddling down the street having obviously just been cut.

Bang goes their chance of full integration. But that's partly the idea, isn't it?

I have a lovely Somali friend in London (works, studies, doesn't wear hijab, refused arranged marriage, mixes with non-Somalis, smiles a lot), and I've never been rude or brave enough to ask if she's been cut. Chances are she has of course, despite her family being less austere than most. Breaks my heart.
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Re: 100,000 women in UK subject to FGM
Reply #9 - April 23, 2012, 01:50 PM

I'm in the Caribbean at the moment, where I spend a lot of time. I told a local friend about FGM, and he was utterly outraged at the practice and astonished that it's being carried out with impunity in London.

'Jail them, kick them out' is his reponnse, and I don't even try to argue against him.

If ever there was an unambiguous, line-in-the-sand issue, surely FGM is it.
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Re: 100,000 women in UK subject to FGM
Reply #10 - April 23, 2012, 04:04 PM

As much as I loathe the idea of circumcision, both male and female, I think it would be better if it were legal and the procedure was available from legitimate practitioners. It would certainly be much safer for the poor girls. I expect to get a lot of shit for this view, but there is no denying parents will find a way to get it done, legal or not. May as well make it safe.

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Re: 100,000 women in UK subject to FGM
Reply #11 - April 23, 2012, 04:33 PM

Nah, throw the practitioners in prison for life and the parents/family members who facilitate it in for about 20 years. It's a calculated, pre-meditated act-- put stiff enough prison sentences on it and I can just about guarantee you the incidence rate will plummet. Deterrence doesn't always work, but I think it would for something like this. Honestly if I didn't have serious practical issues for how capital punishment is carried out, I'd say try, convict then shoot the practitioners in the head and dump their corpses in the neighborhoods where such things are most prevalent. But I think a life sentence will be a strong enough deterrent.

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Re: 100,000 women in UK subject to FGM
Reply #12 - April 23, 2012, 04:38 PM

The incidence rate in the UK may plummet, but not overall. Families will just take their children somewhere else to get it done, very likely with much higher health risk.

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Re: 100,000 women in UK subject to FGM
Reply #13 - April 23, 2012, 04:47 PM

True, but I don't think criminal laws should be largely based on consequences-- if the act itself is depraved enough, and seriously violates the rights of another human being (in this case in an irreversible way), then punishments should be stiff regardless of broader social consequences. We wouldn't legalize forced marriage in the UK or US simply because parents can and do take their daughters to other countries to have it done, and I don't see this as being much different than that, notwithstanding the health and safety concerns you raise.

Furthermore, as I see it, if it's done in another country, the guilty parties would still be liable under UK law, and the parents should be prosecuted (whether or not they think they can obtain a conviction) and there should be a demand for extradition of the practitioners, even if the other country would refuse to extradite them.

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Re: 100,000 women in UK subject to FGM
Reply #14 - April 23, 2012, 05:33 PM

I just don't see how effective that will be at actually stopping it. The 14 year sentence already in place is clearly not a deterrent. I would love to see all circumcision eliminated, but how reasonable is it to expect that either parents or practitioners doing it in other countries can be identified to be prosecuted at all, let alone at a rate to deter others? I would much rather see it done safely.

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Re: 100,000 women in UK subject to FGM
Reply #15 - April 23, 2012, 05:39 PM

I'm presuming enforcement isn't aggressive enough or at all. In any event, consequences not withstanding, there are many things the state should legalize, the willful violation of other people's rights should not be among them. Maiming and abusing kids should never be legal, I don't care what the broader health and safety consequences are.

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Re: 100,000 women in UK subject to FGM
Reply #16 - April 23, 2012, 05:42 PM

In that case, male circumcision should be illegal as well.

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Re: 100,000 women in UK subject to FGM
Reply #17 - April 23, 2012, 05:47 PM

FGM involves the cutting of the clitoris and destroying of normal sexual function in a way that male circumcision doesn't.

Quote
The WHO has offered four classifications of FGM. The main three are Type I, removal of the clitoral hood, almost invariably accompanied by removal of the clitoris itself (clitoridectomy); Type II, removal of the clitoris and inner labia; and Type III (infibulation), removal of all or part of the inner and outer labia, and usually the clitoris, and the fusion of the wound, leaving a small hole for the passage of urine and menstrual blood—the fused wound is opened for intercourse and childbirth

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_mutilation

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Re: 100,000 women in UK subject to FGM
Reply #18 - April 23, 2012, 05:48 PM

Quote from: Luthiel on April 23, 2012, 05:42 PM
In that case, male circumcision should be illegal as well.

I love how when people bring that up they willfully ignore the very different sexual functions of the clitoris and foreskin. Cutting off foreskin is like taking out tonsils, cutting off the clitoris is like chopping off a finger. Perhaps you're right and male circumcision should also be banned, but they aren't strictly equivalent, and should not have the same penalties. FGM is more than a ritual, it's patriarchal bullshit specifically designed to inhibit a woman's sexual pleasure.

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Re: 100,000 women in UK subject to FGM
Reply #19 - April 23, 2012, 06:04 PM

I'm well aware of the differences, and I'm not ignoring them. Male circumcision is just as abusive as female circumcision, in terms of the procedure itself (if not more... the idea of ripping off the fused foreskin makes me sick). They are both disgusting. I would definitely not support allowing female circumcision to include removing the clitoris, and as I understand that is not necessarily a part of it, even if it is usually done. Removing the clitoral hood would be equivalent to removing the foreskin.

Once again, I abhor all types of genital mutilation, both male and female. Male circumcision is not a big deal because it is legal and often routine. It's not exactly a safe procedure, but it's done as safely as possible. I think the same could be done for girls.

I would be all for criminalizing both if I didn't think it would just encourage more dangerous back-alley type procedures. Q, maybe you are right that enforcement needs to be more aggressive.

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Re: 100,000 women in UK subject to FGM
Reply #20 - April 23, 2012, 09:48 PM

Quote
Calling for a crackdown on FGM, she said: "If a white girl is abused, the police come break down the door. If a black girl is mutilated, nobody takes care of her. This is what I call racism."

That is how to attack this problem, as a case of racism because the usual handwringers when faced with this issue say they would like to tackle it but are afraid of being labled racist. Now they are freed from that worry they can get on and put and end to this barbarity. Its not only racist ( if misguided) to ignore this , it is also misogynistic becuase if it were a penis being cut up ( not circumcision but full on cutting of the 'pleasure zone' ie , the bell end) then this practice would have been eradicated centuries ago.

Luthiel I admire your bravery in putting forward a contentious point of view but sorry to say it is an arguement that has no merit whatsoever. Let me put your arguement in another form so you see where I am coming from. Imagine a call to make special rooms available in brothels with nice comfortable beds and rooms full of teddy bears and soft lighting so that children who will be raped by paedos can at least have it done under more comfortable surroundings.
Sounds like a complete moral cop-out. However uncomfortable it may be the answer to this kind of shite is always to try eradication no matter how frustrating it is.

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Re: 100,000 women in UK subject to FGM
Reply #21 - April 24, 2012, 04:57 PM

Legalizing and regulating female circumcision could actually protect children (not true of the comparison to brothels and forced marriage) by ensuring the clitoris is not removed and the procedure is done safely. At that point it would be equivalent to male circumcision, which everyone seems to think is fine and dandy.

But I don't, so why do I even bother? Education could perhaps reduce the number of male circumcisions, but won't eliminate it completely. There will always be people who want to barbarically cut off parts of their kids' genitals because god told them to. That's about all I can say without turning this into a rant. So yeah, I agree with everyone. This shit needs to be eradicated.

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Re: 100,000 women in UK subject to FGM
Reply #22 - April 24, 2012, 05:06 PM

Quote
Legalizing and regulating female circumcision could actually protect children

Imprisonment and Education for the dinosaurs who carry out or who believe in this shit would protect children a lot more .
Its a really badly thought out argument that gives credence to the act. Its barbaric and it should be stamped out , regardless of the justification people have for it. Eradicate it through educational programmes/events and prison sentences

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Re: 100,000 women in UK subject to FGM
Reply #23 - April 24, 2012, 06:09 PM

Quote from: Luthiel on April 24, 2012, 04:57 PM
There will always be people who want to barbarically cut off parts of their kids' genitals because god told them to.

I wasn't snipped for any religious reason. It was standard medical procedure in the US when I was born (I believe it was/is also common practice to medically circumcise in Canada and Australia as well). If you can find me an industrialized country where FGM is done for hygiene reasons by the medical establishment I might buy your comparison, but I'm betting you can't.

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Re: 100,000 women in UK subject to FGM
Reply #24 - April 24, 2012, 06:16 PM

Did you miss the part where I said it would be equivalent to male circumcision? Do you also think male circumcision is barbaric?

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Re: 100,000 women in UK subject to FGM
Reply #25 - April 24, 2012, 06:18 PM

Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi on April 24, 2012, 06:09 PM
I wasn't snipped for any religious reason. It was standard medical procedure in the US when I was born (I believe it was/is also common practice to medically circumcise in Canada and Australia as well). If you can find me an industrialized country where FGM is done for hygiene reasons by the medical establishment I might buy your comparison, but I'm betting you can't.

I realize it is commonly done for non-religious reasons, which is why I said I had to stop before turning my post into a rant. I believe education could stop the non-religiously motivated circumcisions.

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Re: 100,000 women in UK subject to FGM
Reply #26 - April 24, 2012, 06:20 PM

Quote from: Luthiel on April 24, 2012, 06:16 PM
Did you miss the part where I said it would be equivalent to male circumcision? Do you also think male circumcision is barbaric?

Never mind this. Not worth it.

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Re: 100,000 women in UK subject to FGM
Reply #27 - April 24, 2012, 06:27 PM

Quote from: Luthiel on April 24, 2012, 06:18 PM
I realize it is commonly done for non-religious reasons, which is why I said I had to stop before turning my post into a rant. I believe education could stop the non-religiously motivated circumcisions.

Man fuck all that noise. I like my circumcised penis. I like not having to worry about dick cheese and that my limp dick don't look like a trumpet.

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Re: 100,000 women in UK subject to FGM
Reply #28 - April 24, 2012, 07:20 PM

Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi on April 24, 2012, 06:27 PM
Man fuck all that noise. I like my circumcised penis. I like not having to worry about dick cheese and that my limp dick don't look like a trumpet.

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Re: 100,000 women in UK subject to FGM
Reply #29 - April 24, 2012, 07:34 PM

I've just cut my foreskin off with a pair of scissors, and can confirm that I preferred it when it was on. There was less blood on my clothes, and I felt less faint.
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