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Theme Changer

 Poll

  • Question: Was Muhammad an Atheist?
  • Yes: He pretended to recieve revelation with the goal of changing his society. - 5 (11.9%)
  • No: He believed in a God but was still pretending to recieve revelation. - 6 (14.3%)
  • No: He was deluded and actually believed he was receiving revelations. - 17 (40.5%)
  • No: He is the True Prophet of God. - 1 (2.4%)
  • Muhammad never existed in the first place. - 6 (14.3%)
  • Dont' know. - 6 (14.3%)
  • Other (specify). - 1 (2.4%)
  • Total Voters: 42

 Topic: Was Muhammad an Atheist?

 (Read 11799 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Was Muhammad an Atheist?
     OP - May 01, 2012, 01:03 PM
    Was Muhammad an Atheist?

    I do strongly believe he was an Atheist. Only an atheist would seek to change his society by lying so much about recieving messages from a God.

    He was already quite old when he first claimed to be recieving messages from God. So he was certainly a "man of the world". He fully understood what drives human beings and how superstiticious his own people were in particular. He had travelled throughout Syria and seen how people there believed so strongly in a single God and had seen how powerful such a belief can be. Christianity and Judaism were already becoming popular amongst the Arabs. He saw some injustices in his own society and decided that the only way to change the mindsets of such a superstiticious people was to claim prophethood, and he also recognized there would be a few perks for himself.  Wink

    So that is what I think. What do others think?

    I know the idea that Muhammad never existed in the first place is becoming popular nowadays and a number of people on this forum have expressed that position. In that case the question itself is mute, so I have provided an option for that aswell in the poll.
  • Re: Was Muhammad an Atheist?
     Reply #1 - May 01, 2012, 01:06 PM
    Pretty obvious which one I voted for.  Wink

    So far, 100% of the people on the Council of Ex-Muslims forum think that Muhammad (pbuh) was the true prophet of God. Wow..
    Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

    Expect me to come back a Muslim. Cool Tongue j/k we'll see..
  • Re: Was Muhammad an Atheist?
     Reply #2 - May 01, 2012, 01:14 PM
    I don't think so. Even if Muhammad was power hungry and control freak. I actually think he really believed in the crap he was preaching, ergo he was deluded.
    "Beauty is truth, truth beauty," - that is all
            Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

    - John Keats
  • Re: Was Muhammad an Atheist?
     Reply #3 - May 01, 2012, 01:16 PM
    I voted for never existed, because I dont think he existed.
    "Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

    What apple stores are like.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QmZWv-eBI
  • Re: Was Muhammad an Atheist?
     Reply #4 - May 01, 2012, 01:22 PM
    Interesting, Sprout. I am interested in how you came to that conclusion? I would say there is more evidence for Muhammad existing than Jesus.

    "Beauty is truth, truth beauty," - that is all
            Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

    - John Keats
  • Re: Was Muhammad an Atheist?
     Reply #5 - May 01, 2012, 01:33 PM
    Yeah, I'm curious too.

    Sprout & YZV are the first people I've heard of who don't believe that Muhammad (pbuh) existed...I wasn't even aware that that is considered a valid position until today. Tongue
    Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

    Expect me to come back a Muslim. Cool Tongue j/k we'll see..
  • Re: Was Muhammad an Atheist?
     Reply #6 - May 01, 2012, 01:34 PM
    I don't think jesus existed either (?)

    Anyway, the jury is still out on the matter, I think it's possible that Muhammad didn't exist.
    "Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

    What apple stores are like.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QmZWv-eBI
  • Re: Was Muhammad an Atheist?
     Reply #7 - May 01, 2012, 01:34 PM
    Quote from: Al-Ma`arri on May 01, 2012, 01:14 PM
    I don't think so. Even if Muhammad was power hungry and control freak. I actually think he really believed in the crap he was preaching, ergo he was deluded.


    Interesting, do you feel the same way about the various other people that have claimed to be prophets? I.e. Joseph Smith, Jr. (founder of Mormonism) David Koresh (that prophet that lead that Wako Texas mass sucide cult), L. Ron Hubbard (founder of the Church of Scientology), etc.?

    Personally I think they are all highly intelligent, manipulative, cynical, and megalomaniac atheists.

    I could never imagine that anybody so deluded that they actually believed a God was speaking to them could be so succesful at manipulating and leading other people.
  • Re: Was Muhammad an Atheist?
     Reply #8 - May 01, 2012, 01:44 PM
    He might have just been schizo enough to believe his own hype.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Was Muhammad an Atheist?
     Reply #9 - May 01, 2012, 01:46 PM
    Joseph Smith was proven to be a fraud in his own lifetime, and L. Ron Hubbard seemed pretty clear about his ideas being only a science fiction story.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Was Muhammad an Atheist?
     Reply #10 - May 01, 2012, 01:56 PM
    What do you mean by Jospeh Smith being proven to be a fraud? His followers certainly would not agree with that statement, 58% of the great state of Utah are Mormons.

    Many people during Muhammad's lifetime claimed he was a fraud aswell.

    Ibn Ishaq writes about a bunch of other "false Prophets" in Arabia at the same time as Muhammad (Musaliyma, Tulayha, Aswad Ansi, etc.) were those guys all deluded aswell? Musaliyma even wowed crowds by performing magic tricks:

    Quote
    He could put an egg in a bottle; he could cut off the feathers of a bird and then stick them on so the bird would fly again; and he used this skill to persuade the people that he was divinely gifted.

     from wikipedia The source is Ibn Ishaq.

    Surely if his magic tricks were not real magic (i.e. they were tricks) then he must not have been deluded himself in thinking they were magic.

    So why would you label Musaliyma as a trickster and a liar and Muhammad as an honest but deluded man when the only real difference between them is that Muhammad and his guys kicked everyone else's arse in wars and proclaimed the victory of God?
  • Re: Was Muhammad an Atheist?
     Reply #11 - May 01, 2012, 02:08 PM
    Quote from: Tonyt on May 01, 2012, 01:03 PM
    So that is what I think. What do others think?


    I think all that we know of Muhammad is a fiction constructed around a nebulous figure who existed at the time of the initial Arab conquests, and so it is reflective of the 'needs' of that imperium a couple of hundred years after his death to construct a central figure adding hellfire and brimstone divine authority to their power and expansionism. Cut and pasting from existing beliefs, sanctifying themselves, and representative of their delusions and impulses.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Was Muhammad an Atheist?
     Reply #12 - May 01, 2012, 02:14 PM
    Quote from: Tonyt on May 01, 2012, 01:56 PM
    What do you mean by Jospeh Smith being proven to be a fraud?

    I don't know the specifics. But I'm pretty sure someone hid his alleged translations of the magic gold Jesus plates and pretended they were lost, then asked him to translate them again, and the second translation was totally different when compared. Or something. Then he made some bullshit excuse about the magic plates changing.

    Quote from: Ishina on May 01, 2012, 01:46 PM
    His followers certainly would not agree with that statement, 58% of the great state of Utah are Mormons.

    Well, sure, but that's no gauge of the truth or reality of anything.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Was Muhammad an Atheist?
     Reply #13 - May 01, 2012, 02:25 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on May 01, 2012, 02:14 PM
    I don't know the specifics. But I'm pretty sure someone hid his alleged translations of the magic gold Jesus plates and pretended they were lost, then asked him to translate them again, and the second translation was totally different when compared. Or something. Then he made some bullshit excuse about the magic plates changing.


    That sounds vaguely familiar...hint abrogation. Wink
  • Re: Was Muhammad an Atheist?
     Reply #14 - May 01, 2012, 02:52 PM
    Yeah, not quite the same thing though. If Mohammed had translated the entire Quran from magic encrypted gold plates that only he had the miraculous ability to read, and couldn't do it the same twice - that would be equivalent.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Was Muhammad an Atheist?
     Reply #15 - May 01, 2012, 03:00 PM
    He really believed in what he was preaching. Also there is light evidence to support that Jesus and Muhammad did exist. I don't think he was Aetheist because aetheism ( from what I understand) is the absence of a belief in God. Regardless of prior beliefs once one starts to believe in any sort of unknown power, or even so much as mention a higher unseen power they cannot be atheist. Muhammad was just very smart in a time where people were uneducated and could not read or write so, anyone who sounded remotely intelligent, or had a way with words could win over the people. Now we have the Internet his bullshit is having a hard time holding up.
    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Re: Was Muhammad an Atheist?
     Reply #16 - May 01, 2012, 03:58 PM
     Some on starts a thread with
    Quote
    Was Muhammad an Atheist?


    and Chick Peas says
    Quote
    Yeah, I'm curious too.

    Sprout & YZV are the first people I've heard of who don't believe that Muhammad (pbuh) existed...I wasn't even aware that that is considered a valid position until today. Tongue..

    There is nothing curious about it., It is a fact and since 17th century many guys questioned and inquired about that subject.,  But first question one should ask on that subject is

    Which Muhammad? and how many Muhammad s were there by the time Quran and hadith were finished which was around the year 870..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: Was Muhammad an Atheist?
     Reply #17 - May 01, 2012, 03:59 PM
    Quote from: Sakura02 on May 01, 2012, 03:00 PM
    He really believed in what he was preaching. Also there is light evidence to support that Jesus and Muhammad did exist. I don't think he was Aetheist because aetheism ( from what I understand) is the absence of a belief in God. Regardless of prior beliefs once one starts to believe in any sort of unknown power, or even so much as mention a higher unseen power they cannot be atheist. Muhammad was just very smart in a time where people were uneducated and could not read or write so, anyone who sounded remotely intelligent, or had a way with words could win over the people. Now we have the Internet his bullshit is having a hard time holding up.

    Being educated and being discerning are different. Politicians fool people everyday with their word choices, and idiots post stuff with great authority on the Internet all the time.
    Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

    Expect me to come back a Muslim. Cool Tongue j/k we'll see..
  • Re: Was Muhammad an Atheist?
     Reply #18 - May 01, 2012, 04:00 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on May 01, 2012, 03:58 PM
    Some on starts a thread with
    and Chick Peas says There is nothing curious about it., It is a fact and since 17th century many guys questioned and inquired about that subject.,  But first question one should ask on that subject is

    Which Muhammad? and how many Muhammad s were there by the time Quran and hadith were finished which was around the year 870..



    It's a fact that Muhammad didn't exist? Smiley

    Okay YZV, surely you've discussed this on another thread. Can you direct me to that thread so that I can read what your position is, or see if you're just spewing Orientalist bull.

    No offence. Tongue
    Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

    Expect me to come back a Muslim. Cool Tongue j/k we'll see..
  • Re: Was Muhammad an Atheist?
     Reply #19 - May 01, 2012, 05:46 PM
    He was probably a believer in god, because almost all people throughout almost all of history have been.

    However, I'm not sure about whether he believed his fits/revelations.
    His wife told him that he was a prophet. I think maybe he just went with the flow. Over time he had dug himself a hole deep enough that he had no option other than to be fully committed to the lie.

  • Re: Was Muhammad an Atheist?
     Reply #20 - May 01, 2012, 05:54 PM
    I mean sure it is possible he never existed, but Mohamed was very political and one would think his interactions with the greater political world would have left a verifiable impact.  His encounters with Ethiopian kings, letters to political leaders, participation with the Islamic empire in general.

    But of course I think his legacy was altered and used for political purposes by others.

    Only he knows what was in his head.  But I think if you look at recent political history, you're sure to find similar questions.
    What was going on in Hitler's head?  
    What was going on in Mao's head?
    What was going on in Osama Bin Laden's head?
    What was going on in Sadaam Hussein's head?
    Does Obama really mean everything he says in his speeches.

    Heck, there was a even a case in the news recently about a young woman lying that she had cancer to get money from people.  

    Who knows what is going on with these people.  That's why we're not there doing such things Tongue

    Was he a very smart manipulative politician?
    Was he deluded/mentally ill?
    Was he a seeker who just got really confused?





  • Re: Was Muhammad an Atheist?
     Reply #21 - May 01, 2012, 06:32 PM
    I am really surprised that noone else here has voted that he was a lier and simply pretended to recieve revelations.

    It seems like whilst you ex-Muslims will accept that God was not talking to Mo, you still will not accpet that Mo was dishonest.  Tongue

    It is really not that uncommon throughout history for people to make up stories of divine intervention for personal gain or political power. In fact it was one of the most common professions of the ancient world. Oracles and soothsayers were a dime a dozen in those times. There were even elaborate tricks set up in pagan temples where priests would hide behind hidden panels and actually pretend to be a talking god. But the actual people conducting these tricks clearly were not deluding themselves.

    The Pharoahs of Egypt used to claim that they were the living embodiment of Horus (the God of the Sky) and the son of the sun God Ra. But they must have known that this was all a scam to control the masses and stabilize the country.

    I think the important thing to people like Muhammad was not whether or he was telling the truth, all that mattered to him was whether or not people would believe it. If people would believe it then it pretty much takes on a life of it's own and whether or not it is true no longer matters.
  • Re: Was Muhammad an Atheist?
     Reply #22 - May 01, 2012, 08:31 PM
    "It seems like whilst you ex-Muslims will accept that God was not talking to Mo, you still will not accpet that Mo was dishonest."

    And I don't see much reason to think he was dishonest.  But that is more a question of politics than religion.

    I don't think any mass political leader is that dishonest on their core ideas.
    I don't think Hitler was dishonest in his core beliefs either.  I don't think he merely pretended to hate jews.

    Perhaps I'm just not evil enough, but I just don't see how one can be so dishonest so as to perpetuate a lie that results in revolution, killings, exodus...
  • Re: Was Muhammad an Atheist?
     Reply #23 - May 01, 2012, 08:59 PM
    Quote from: scamper_22 on May 01, 2012, 08:31 PM
    Perhaps I'm just not evil enough, but I just don't see how one can be so dishonest so as to perpetuate a lie that results in revolution, killings, exodus...


    Well i think he just got deeper and deeper into it so that there was no turning back. Plus the more powerful he became the more corrupt he became.

    He started off preaching a modified form of Christianity and admonishing his people for killing their children, etc.

    But then he started to get both followers and enemies, which led to the Hijra. Then he is forced to work out how to feed all these followers, hence the banditry, and this led to the war, and then there was no turning back really. He couldn't really say at that point, "hey guys you know I made this whole Islam thing up so go back to your homes and families in Mecca and forget about this whole thing"
  • Re: Was Muhammad an Atheist?
     Reply #24 - May 01, 2012, 09:11 PM
    Quote from: Tonyt on May 01, 2012, 06:32 PM
    It seems like whilst you ex-Muslims will accept that God was not talking to Mo, you still will not accpet that Mo was dishonest.  Tongue


    I voted for the deluded one, but I actually think it was a combination of him being deluded and lying. Like someone said above, he might have believed he was having revelations in the first instance, but then was forced to go along with it so he didn't look like a total fool.

    How he conveniently kept receiving revelations that were related to the situation he was in at the time is rather fishy (like with the alcohol ban and how lots of the Qur'an refers to the battles that were going on at the time). Either, he believed he was actually receiving revelations, and they were conveniently advising what to do in the situations he was in- sort of a subconscious thing (if that makes sense). Or, he believed he'd divinely received the first few revelations, but then he felt the need to keep going with what he'd established, and that is why the revelations seem rather convenient.
  • Re: Was Muhammad an Atheist?
     Reply #25 - May 01, 2012, 09:27 PM
    Quote from: billy on May 01, 2012, 02:08 PM
    I think all that we know of Muhammad is a fiction constructed around a nebulous figure who existed at the time of the initial Arab conquests, and so it is reflective of the 'needs' of that imperium a couple of hundred years after his death to construct a central figure adding hellfire and brimstone divine authority to their power and expansionism. Cut and pasting from existing beliefs, sanctifying themselves, and representative of their delusions and impulses.



         

    + 1  Most Plausible explanation. This is the same thing people did with jesus and moses.   

         

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Re: Was Muhammad an Atheist?
     Reply #26 - May 01, 2012, 09:33 PM
    "How he conveniently kept receiving revelations that were related to the situation he was in at the time is rather fishy"

    Actually the fact that he changed his message to the circumstance is what kept me a Muslim for as long as it did.

    What better... more common-sense... message... than having laws that deal with the situation.  If there is a god... that seems like a pretty darn good message.

    If people stayed true to the message of the koran read in this context, Islam would be a better religion.  Instead of going nuts if people drink for example.  They could see in the koran and the history how Islam dealt with it pragmatically.  First just appealing to not be drunk while praying.  Then later, making drinking haram.  The hadith are another matter all together.

    You could pretty much read the koran in this context and throw all the rules as belonging to old arabia.  
    The adherence to the ummah and prophet relegated to essentially... obey the laws of your country.  I think ummah was even used in the context of referring to people in the community... muslim or non-muslim.

    You could understand the koran including abrogation as basically being a call to be good lawful citizens.
    Zakat just being taxation... pay your taxes citizen!

  • Re: Was Muhammad an Atheist?
     Reply #27 - May 02, 2012, 12:17 AM
    Quote from: billy on May 01, 2012, 02:08 PM
    I think all that we know of Muhammad is a fiction constructed around a nebulous figure who existed at the time of the initial Arab conquests, and so it is reflective of the 'needs' of that imperium a couple of hundred years after his death to construct a central figure adding hellfire and brimstone divine authority to their power and expansionism. Cut and pasting from existing beliefs, sanctifying themselves, and representative of their delusions and impulses.


    Quote from: TheDarkRebel on May 01, 2012, 09:27 PM
         + 1  Most Plausible explanation. This is the same thing people did with jesus and moses.   


    make that +2

    Quote from: chepea on May 01, 2012, 03:59 PM
    Being educated and being discerning are different. Politicians fool people everyday with their word choices, and idiots post stuff with great authority on the Internet all the time.


    Cheesy
    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: Was Muhammad an Atheist?
     Reply #28 - May 02, 2012, 12:51 AM
    ^ I hope you're not laughing at the irony, Cato. Tongue
    Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

    Expect me to come back a Muslim. Cool Tongue j/k we'll see..
  • Re: Was Muhammad an Atheist?
     Reply #29 - May 02, 2012, 12:59 AM
    not really, i like what you posted and it sums it up for me Smiley
    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
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