The rant of an angry, Agnostic, British, Indo-Pakistani woman of Muslim heritage

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Re: The rant of an angry, Agnostic, British, Indo-Pakistani woman of Muslim heritage
Reply #30 - May 07, 2012, 06:07 PM

I think the whole concept of rape as justification for hijab is blown way out of proportion - it's merely commanded by 'God' in the Quran. Rape is a crime in Islam for both sexes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBUc_kATGgg
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Re: The rant of an angry, Agnostic, British, Indo-Pakistani woman of Muslim heritage
Reply #31 - May 07, 2012, 06:08 PM

Quote from: deusvult on May 07, 2012, 06:05 PM
isn't that what more or less the EDL say? Love it or leave it?

EDL want to ban Mosques and generally limit the freedoms of Muslims in the UK.

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Re: The rant of an angry, Agnostic, British, Indo-Pakistani woman of Muslim heritage
Reply #32 - May 07, 2012, 06:14 PM

Yes if course, but if Muslims don't like it they are free to leave. It's another just another way to try and silence voices by saying if someone doesn't like something they are free to leave.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
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Re: The rant of an angry, Agnostic, British, Indo-Pakistani woman of Muslim heritage
Reply #33 - May 07, 2012, 06:14 PM

Quote from: 247read on May 07, 2012, 04:56 PM
She's more than welcome to leave 'her' community - which she is no longer part of anyway as she's Agnostic.

I hate these responses. Not just in regards to religion... but also in terms of politics.

Her community no doubt includes family and friends. Her community is not just a community of Islam, but also a cultural community.
She has every right to try and change it and good for her. She doesn't have to leave it.

Just like with politics. Just because you disagree with the politics doesn't mean you just leave. You try and change it as that is where your home and community is.

Now, you always that option to just cut all ties and leave it... but good on her for trying to help her community.
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Re: The rant of an angry, Agnostic, British, Indo-Pakistani woman of Muslim heritage
Reply #34 - May 07, 2012, 06:23 PM

Quote from: deusvult on May 07, 2012, 06:05 PM
isn't that what more or less the EDL say? Love it or leave it?

We're living in the age of the inquisition - and its instincts extends beyond even those most virulent in belief.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: The rant of an angry, Agnostic, British, Indo-Pakistani woman of Muslim heritage
Reply #35 - May 07, 2012, 06:25 PM

Quote from: 247read on May 07, 2012, 06:03 PM
You take waffling to a whole new level! You honestly think Muslim men don't know how to 'talk' to the opposite sex? What planet do you live on?

I honestly don't think some know how to approach a woman and don't know where the boundaries are because there is a lack of a 'sex talk' between parents and children there. This mixed with outside cultures sexualisation of the female body including women in revealing clothing may make it seem to them like anyone wearing less than the average in the muslim community as saying I am ready for sex come with me.
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Re: The rant of an angry, Agnostic, British, Indo-Pakistani woman of Muslim heritage
Reply #36 - May 07, 2012, 06:25 PM

Quote from: deusvult on May 07, 2012, 06:14 PM
Yes if course, but if Muslims don't like it they are free to leave. It's another just another way to try and silence voices by saying if someone doesn't like something they are free to leave.

'Freedom' to leave is a relative term in situations like this, as countless people here can testify.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: The rant of an angry, Agnostic, British, Indo-Pakistani woman of Muslim heritage
Reply #37 - May 07, 2012, 06:26 PM

Cultural community? What does that actually mean if Islam is part of the culture? You can't separate the two. She nor myself am part of the community when we left Islam. I disagree with many practices but I have no credibility to lecture them because I don't share the same belief in some omnipresent God who'll punish me if I don't adhere to his illogical rules.

My family and friends can do what they like, as long as they're happy and don't break the law - FGMS , forced marriages and tec.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBUc_kATGgg
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Re: The rant of an angry, Agnostic, British, Indo-Pakistani woman of Muslim heritage
Reply #38 - May 07, 2012, 06:27 PM

Quote from: 247read on May 07, 2012, 06:07 PM
I think the whole concept of rape as justification for hijab is blown way out of proportion - it's merely commanded by 'God' in the Quran. Rape is a crime in Islam for both sexes.

Its more to do with the perverse sense that a woman is responsible either in whole or in part for the attention she'd receive from a sexual predator because of how she presents herself. The victim then becomes responsible for her own victimhood.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: The rant of an angry, Agnostic, British, Indo-Pakistani woman of Muslim heritage
Reply #39 - May 07, 2012, 06:30 PM

Are you saying that muslims cannot live beside non-muslims and be friends with them as unless they are all muslims they are not part of the same community? Also that if a family does not disown you when you leave Islam that you should have nothing to do with muslim family friends?

My brothers girlfriend is Catholic, I am not but I still see her as part of my family and community back at home.
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Re: The rant of an angry, Agnostic, British, Indo-Pakistani woman of Muslim heritage
Reply #40 - May 07, 2012, 06:30 PM

How to approach a girl? Lol
Quote from: Lilyesque on May 07, 2012, 06:25 PM
I honestly don't think some know how to approach a woman and don't know where the boundaries are because there is a lack of a 'sex talk' between parents and children there. This mixed with outside cultures sexualisation of the female body including women in revealing clothing may make it seem to them like anyone wearing less than the average in the muslim community as saying I am ready for sex come with me.

I never nor my Muslim - even people of other faiths - had 'sex talks' with our parents and we didn't turn out too bad. It's perfectly a natural occurrence that doesn't need outside interference. Perhaps in some Muslim countries where there is strict segregation between the sexes where problems which you speak of might arise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBUc_kATGgg
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Re: The rant of an angry, Agnostic, British, Indo-Pakistani woman of Muslim heritage
Reply #41 - May 07, 2012, 06:33 PM

There are plenty of people who live in an Islamic culture who publicly or privately don't profess the faith. If you only limit the allowable criticism to come from those who profess publicly and loudly you're often times limiting the allowable voice of critism to the same ones who are perpetuating the problems if there are problems.

This happened in Britain when faith groups became the governments way of dealing with various groups in Britain. The loudest claimed to represent a group and started dictating who was and wasn't in that group.

Everyone is allowed to criticize others, though how much credibility one has may vary.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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Re: The rant of an angry, Agnostic, British, Indo-Pakistani woman of Muslim heritage
Reply #42 - May 07, 2012, 06:35 PM

Quote from: billy on May 07, 2012, 06:27 PM
Its more to do with the perverse sense that a woman is responsible either in whole or in part for the attention she'd receive from a sexual predator because of how she presents herself. The victim then becomes responsible for her own victimhood.

I have spoken to countless Muslim women including my sister, they have never once said they're doing to protect themselves from rape - partly because they live in Britain and they don't put themselves in such situations where it might happen. They do it because God commanded them in the Quran. It's only some Muslims who try to sway their flock into following this 'obligation' by inducing fear of rape, which is perverted an sickening.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBUc_kATGgg
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Re: The rant of an angry, Agnostic, British, Indo-Pakistani woman of Muslim heritage
Reply #43 - May 07, 2012, 06:36 PM

Quote from: Lilyesque on May 07, 2012, 06:30 PM
Are you saying that muslims cannot live beside non-muslims and be friends with them as unless they are all muslims they are not part of the same community? Also that if a family does not disown you when you leave Islam that you should have nothing to do with muslim family friends?

My brothers girlfriend is Catholic, I am not but I still see her as part of my family and community back at home.

When did I say that?

If my family found out that I left Islam they would never take advice from me concerning matters of their religion, which makes sense surely?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBUc_kATGgg
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Re: The rant of an angry, Agnostic, British, Indo-Pakistani woman of Muslim heritage
Reply #44 - May 07, 2012, 06:39 PM

Quote from: deusvult on May 07, 2012, 06:33 PM
There are plenty of people who live in an Islamic culture who publicly or privately don't profess the faith. If you only limit the allowable criticism to come from those who profess publicly and loudly you're often times limiting the allowable voice of critism to the same ones who are perpetuating the problems if there are problems.

This happened in Britain when faith groups became the governments way of dealing with various groups in Britain. The loudest claimed to represent a group and started dictating who was and wasn't in that group.

Everyone is allowed to criticize others, though how much credibility one has may vary.

Criticise, I will join you too in mocking Islam and religion but don't expect them to take you seriously. They value Allah's and Mohammed's words much, much more highly than us even if we brought empirical evidence to show them the errors of their ways.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBUc_kATGgg
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Re: The rant of an angry, Agnostic, British, Indo-Pakistani woman of Muslim heritage
Reply #45 - May 07, 2012, 06:39 PM

Quote from: 247read on May 07, 2012, 06:30 PM
How to approach a girl? Lol
I never nor my Muslim - even people of other faiths - had 'sex talks' with our parents and we didn't turn out too bad. It's perfectly a natural occurrence that doesn't need outside interference. Perhaps in some Muslim countries where there is strict segregation between the sexes where problems which you speak of might arise.

Sex talks include in my head talks about relationships in my head, i.e you only have sex with someone you trust and who trusts you and you preferably care about without making it off limits to them. You may say you disagree with sex outside of marriage but you can't say don't do it cos it just won't work. If people feel respected in their decision making process and are praised they perform a lot more like you want them to than if you get angry at them.
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Re: The rant of an angry, Agnostic, British, Indo-Pakistani woman of Muslim heritage
Reply #46 - May 07, 2012, 06:40 PM

Quote from: 247read on May 07, 2012, 06:35 PM

I have spoken to countless Muslim women including my sister, they have never once said they're doing to protect themselves from rape - partly because they live in Britain and they don't put themselves in such situations where it might happen. They do it because God commanded them in the Quran. It's only some Muslims who try to sway their flock into following this 'obligation' by inducing fear of rape, which is perverted and sicking.

Its about the attitude that a woman is responsible for how men react to her by how she is attired & presented, that underlies the idea that women are responsible for their own victimisation by predatory men. 'God commanded' them to do what accords with this reactionary notion, of course he did.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: The rant of an angry, Agnostic, British, Indo-Pakistani woman of Muslim heritage
Reply #47 - May 07, 2012, 06:45 PM

Whose attitude is it? When I was a Muslim - even a hardcore salafist - It didn't once enter my mind that women, who didn't wear modest clothing, were responsible for rape nor did I hear anyone utter such nonsense. Of course there are idiots out there who have made these ludicrous claims but I don't think Islam is responsible rather the insensitive nature of these douche bags!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBUc_kATGgg
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Re: The rant of an angry, Agnostic, British, Indo-Pakistani woman of Muslim heritage
Reply #48 - May 07, 2012, 06:49 PM

So you didn't think that way, but you're aware that people did. Fine.

The attitude that suggests a woman is responsible for the sexual response to her by men is what underlies the attitude that a woman is primarily the cause, not the victim, of predatory attention.

Its not just Muslims who have that attitude. But it underlies the moral purity / whore dynamic of veiling, which is a real pressure within Islam.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: The rant of an angry, Agnostic, British, Indo-Pakistani woman of Muslim heritage
Reply #49 - May 07, 2012, 06:51 PM

Quote from: Lilyesque on May 07, 2012, 06:39 PM
Sex talks include in my head talks about relationships in my head, i.e you only have sex with someone you trust and who trusts you and you preferably care about without making it off limits to them. You may say you disagree with sex outside of marriage but you can't say don't do it cos it just won't work. If people feel respected in their decision making process and are praised they perform a lot more like you want them to than if you get angry at them.

Sex is , well usually, on spur of the moment. People don't plan it when you're in a relationship. That's the key word - if you're a devout Muslim then you'd probably avoid having a relationship in the first place. Those who commit rape aren't devout Muslims, they're just sick men. Men which are found in any community. I find it disingenuous to link these awful crimes to Islam - I would have accepted your argument if these rapists carried out their sick deed had they considered their victims as war booty they won after conquering some city, which is sanctioned in Islam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBUc_kATGgg
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Re: The rant of an angry, Agnostic, British, Indo-Pakistani woman of Muslim heritage
Reply #50 - May 07, 2012, 06:55 PM

Quote from: 247read on May 07, 2012, 06:39 PM
Criticise, I will join you too in mocking Islam and religion but don't expect them to take you seriously. They value Allah's and Mohammed's words much, much more highly than us even if we brought empirical evidence to show them the errors of their ways.

im not so much concerned with the actual act of them changing their mind, but more so the preoccupation with who does or does not fit into a group and by extension who has a legitimate voice of critism. Many times the silencing of voices is more about silencing voices within a community of people who are different than between communities who think differently.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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Re: The rant of an angry, Agnostic, British, Indo-Pakistani woman of Muslim heritage
Reply #51 - May 07, 2012, 07:00 PM

Quote from: 247read on May 07, 2012, 06:39 PM
Criticise, I will join you too in mocking Islam and religion but don't expect them to take you seriously. They value Allah's and Mohammed's words much, much more highly than us even if we brought empirical evidence to show them the errors of their ways.

Well good. They certainly won't take you seriously if you mock Islam.

But there are huge parts of Muslim communities that are more than willing to talk about having people make their own choices with regards to dating and hijab... You can still be a part of the general community that way.

In they end, you can still be a cultural muslim and be a part of your culture... and partake in practical discussions.
You have to have tact and not sit there brandishing an athiest whip and making fun of everything.

I don't know what your community is like, but I see many cultural muslim communities around. The religious people do their thing. Everyone else does their thing. They get together on eid and have good food and times... and that's that.
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Re: The rant of an angry, Agnostic, British, Indo-Pakistani woman of Muslim heritage
Reply #52 - May 07, 2012, 07:04 PM

But that is my point to a tee that people seem to not want to think that their boys and girls could be anything but the perfect muslim (not having sex outside of marriage). They therefore don't see a need for sex education in this regard as that is all dealt with through marriage. This means as per usual that when their offspring are not the perfect muslim and do do these things they are ill prepared and haven't had any kind of input as to how to approach sex decently.

Also about the war booty thing, if men know about this and they feel aggrieved by western cultures do you not think that this may have an effect on their actions?

If you don't want to get pregnant as well you have to plan sex, getting condoms and putting them on is planning sex, as is the knowledge of when and when not the other half of the deed is ready for/wanting/sober enough for it. All I know is that in my relationship to signal I am ready I say I want it and it is clear.
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Re: The rant of an angry, Agnostic, British, Indo-Pakistani woman of Muslim heritage
Reply #53 - May 07, 2012, 07:10 PM

It's quite evident to my 'community' that I'm a non-practicing Muslim and I have heated debates about Islam with them - I try to preach secularism and a more liberal branch of Islam. If they found out that I was an apostate then I know the reception of my ideas would be less welcoming as I am no longer part of their 'clique.' I no longer believe in the divinity of Allah nor his 'holy' message so my thoughts would be of no value to them as their opinions are shaped partly by this unshakable belief. All I can do, if and when I came out, is expose the fallacies of Islam and the concept of religion for them to abandon the unsavory aspects of their culture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBUc_kATGgg
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Re: The rant of an angry, Agnostic, British, Indo-Pakistani woman of Muslim heritage
Reply #54 - May 07, 2012, 07:14 PM

Quote from: 247read on May 07, 2012, 06:51 PM
Sex is , well usually, on spur of the moment. People don't plan it when you're in a relationship. That's the key word - if you're a devout Muslim then you'd probably avoid having a relationship in the first place. Those who commit rape aren't devout Muslims, they're just sick men. Men which are found in any community. I find it disingenuous to link these awful crimes to Islam - I would have accepted your argument if these rapists carried out their sick deed had they considered their victims as war booty they won after conquering some city, which is sanctioned in Islam.

Well, I do link it Islam. Or Islamic culture. Because the sexual repression and segregation in Islamic societies creates such men.
I'm Indian... and most of the women in my family... including the religious women... hate arab society. They find the men crude and always trying things and to touch them or grope them. They even hate going back to India... where the men are like that as well.

There is a huge discussion to be had in Islamic socities about dealing with less than perfect people... especially in regards to relationships, sex, alcohol....

Even Islam didn't just come in there are say alcohol is banned. First it banned being drunk in the mosque while praying... then it banned alcohol. Even from the islamic tradition, being practical was there.
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Re: The rant of an angry, Agnostic, British, Indo-Pakistani woman of Muslim heritage
Reply #55 - May 07, 2012, 07:18 PM

Sex education? It's everywhere and it's talked about freely among adolescent boys and girls, you'll probably have to be home schooled by your Muslim parents to be immune from the 'scourge' of sex. I don't want to flog this dead horse any longer, sex isn't really a problem for Muslim children in British schools, they're comfortable with it like any other kids - either they avoid it or embrace it depending on their religiosity.

War booty? I very much doubt it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBUc_kATGgg
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Re: The rant of an angry, Agnostic, British, Indo-Pakistani woman of Muslim heritage
Reply #56 - May 07, 2012, 07:21 PM

Quote from: scamper_22 on May 07, 2012, 07:14 PM
Well, I do link it Islam. Or Islamic culture. Because the sexual repression and segregation in Islamic societies creates such men.
I'm Indian... and most of the women in my family... including the religious women... hate arab society. They find the men crude and always trying things and to touch them or grope them. They even hate going back to India... where the men are like that as well.

There is a huge discussion to be had in Islamic socities about dealing with less than perfect people... especially in regards to relationships, sex, alcohol....

Even Islam didn't just come in there are say alcohol is banned. First it banned being drunk in the mosque while praying... then it banned alcohol. Even from the islamic tradition, being practical was there.

Well I did make a distinction between Muslims growing up in western and liberal societies compared to the repressed and stifling environment in conservative Islamic countries.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBUc_kATGgg
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Re: The rant of an angry, Agnostic, British, Indo-Pakistani woman of Muslim heritage
Reply #57 - May 07, 2012, 07:23 PM

Sex ed in British Schools from what I have seen is very very sparse in terms of talking about relationships, and I really would not want them to be taught by adolescents. What I am looking for is talk from the start in terms of what to expect from others and how to act yourself (relationships), a few talks about respect and talk about sex and contraception.
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Re: The rant of an angry, Agnostic, British, Indo-Pakistani woman of Muslim heritage
Reply #58 - May 07, 2012, 07:23 PM

I.e Sex and Relationship teaching, started at the age of 5.
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Re: The rant of an angry, Agnostic, British, Indo-Pakistani woman of Muslim heritage
Reply #59 - May 07, 2012, 07:30 PM

Quote from: 247read on May 07, 2012, 07:10 PM
It's quite evident to my 'community' that I'm a non-practicing Muslim and I have heated debates about Islam with them - I try to preach secularism and a more liberal branch of Islam. If they found out that I was an apostate then I know the reception of my ideas would be less welcoming as I am no longer part of their 'clique.' I no longer believe in the divinity of Allah nor his 'holy' message so my thoughts would be of no value to them as their opinions are shaped partly by this unshakable belief. All I can do, if and when I came out, is expose the fallacies of Islam and the concept of religion for them to abandon the unsavory aspects of their culture.

Good stuff.....and you can do that without attacking someone who wants to criticise them from a position of agnosticism or apostacy or whatever. There are many different ways to be, and positions from which to criticise Islam & religion, they are all legitimate because they rest on personal conscience.

Its important to have those outliers who repudiate the softly-softly tip-toe way of doing things - because they exist, & because they have an important place in the debate.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Topic: The rant of an angry, Agnostic, British, Indo-Pakistani woman of Muslim heritage

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