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 Topic: Anti-Natalism

 (Read 10170 times)
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Anti-Natalism
     OP - May 17, 2012, 09:36 AM
    I think I've posted a VHEMT thread before, but I was reminded of this potent ethical argument by this caller on the Magic Sandwich Show:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYvoWeSKwkk&feature=plcp

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GsOK3aed-g&feature=relmfu

    Anyway, just wanted to open up some discussion on the anti-natalist position, as it seemed to be pretty poorly debated against on the show. Anyone else have any ideas, arguments for/against, etc.?
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Anti-Natalism
     Reply #1 - May 17, 2012, 10:00 AM
    No amount of moralizing will defy nature.
  • Re: Anti-Natalism
     Reply #2 - May 17, 2012, 01:37 PM
    Can't watch the video right now, can you summarize his argument?



    Have you heard the good news? There is no God!
  • Re: Anti-Natalism
     Reply #3 - May 17, 2012, 01:40 PM
    That guy came across as nuts.and angry, I didn't really get his point, do you mind summarising it for us? Thanks.
    "Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

    What apple stores are like.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QmZWv-eBI
  • Re: Anti-Natalism
     Reply #4 - May 17, 2012, 03:08 PM
    Al-Ma`arri and Peter Wessel Zapffe was the first time I looked into anti-natalism. Both seem to be anti-natalists. I disagree with the man in this video and also Al-Ma`arri and Zapffe. I agree with Camus on that even though life is meaningless (more specifically absurd), suicide (or in this instance human extinction) is not the way to go. We should try to give life meaning - all the time.

    But this is quite interesting topic.  On a personal note. I am not going to have biological children, but adopt children. No matter if I am single or in a relationship. This is not an anti-natalist stance or critic of those who choose to have their own children. It is merely a personal choice. And I am actually convinced that more people should adopt orphans (one of the only positive things with Islam). Meanwhile anti-natalists (some of them) are over-exaggerating i will say this stance is maybe a compromise?


    PS: I don't see how this guy is "angry" or "nuts"?
    "Beauty is truth, truth beauty," - that is all
            Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

    - John Keats
  • Re: Anti-Natalism
     Reply #5 - May 17, 2012, 03:23 PM
    I like him. He makes me think. Religious apologists don't make people think. They make people stupid, complacent, intellectually lazy.

    Of course, he's completely wrong, but it makes a change from Kalam and ID.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Anti-Natalism
     Reply #6 - May 17, 2012, 05:16 PM
    Man, that guy Gary Mosher needs to get out of the house, get a hobby or something.

    Quote from: Al-Ma`arri on May 17, 2012, 03:08 PM
    On a personal note. I am not going to have biological children, but adopt children. No matter if I am single or in a relationship. This is not an anti-natalist stance or critic of those who choose to have their own children. It is merely a personal choice.


    You seem like quite a smart person Al-Ma'arri, better to have your own children and spread your smart genes. There are already too many dumb people procreating like crazy in this world.
  • Re: Anti-Natalism
     Reply #7 - May 17, 2012, 05:30 PM
    I didn't hear his particular argument, but generally antinatalist arguments go something like this:

    1. Suffering is bad
    2. Suffering experienced by humans outweighs pleasure
    3. Creating new humans is bad

    Although myself I'm not planning to have any kids, I don't embrace antinatalism for a few reasons.

    Firstly, I don't think most people feel that their suffering outweighs their pleasures. Some do, no doubt, but they're a minority.

    Secondly, I don't want to eliminate suffering - at least not at this cost. I would prefer a universe with somewhat suffering humans to a universe without them. I value many aspects of mankind, and want them to persist. More than other species, humans have the capacity to reason, to imagine, to seek knowledge, to appreciate the scale and complexity of the universe, to create awesome machines and works of art. The suffering they experience doesn't outweigh all this for me.

    Have you heard the good news? There is no God!
  • Re: Anti-Natalism
     Reply #8 - May 17, 2012, 05:57 PM
    Quote from: Abood on May 17, 2012, 10:00 AM
    No amount of moralizing will defy nature.


    As individuals we can choose to make moral decisions that transcend our nature, regardless of whether there will be any greater overall practical effect that stems from it. For example, is the pacifism of a conscientious objector going to stop the next World War? Probably not, but that doesn't mean that his/her action would be of no value, or even impossible as you seem to be suggesting.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Anti-Natalism
     Reply #9 - May 17, 2012, 06:11 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on May 17, 2012, 03:23 PM
    I like him. He makes me think.


    I had a crazy idea after posting this thread this morning. What if anti-natalism is just another biologically developed meme with the purpose of enhancing reproductive fitness? The sheer poignancy and pathos of the argument is such that people can't help but feel compelled to reproduce with the propagator of the meme.  Cheesy

    So Ishina, is he evoking any other kinds of physiological response from you at all?  Tongue
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Anti-Natalism
     Reply #10 - May 17, 2012, 06:13 PM
    Quote from: Tonyt on May 17, 2012, 05:16 PM
    Man, that guy Gary Mosher needs to get out of the house, get a hobby or something.


    From the later videos in the series it seems to be implied that he's some sort of artist.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Anti-Natalism
     Reply #11 - May 17, 2012, 06:18 PM
    Quote from: asbie on May 17, 2012, 06:11 PM
    So Ishina, is he evoking any other kinds of physiological response from you at all?  Tongue

    I'd like to eat his brain with some fava beans and a nice chianti.

    TFTH-TFTH-TFTH-TFTH-TFTH-TFTH
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Anti-Natalism
     Reply #12 - May 17, 2012, 06:44 PM
    Quote from: Stuff on May 17, 2012, 05:30 PM
    I didn't hear his particular argument, but generally antinatalist arguments go something like this:

    1. Suffering is bad
    2. Suffering experienced by humans outweighs pleasure
    3. Creating new humans is bad

    Although myself I'm not planning to have any kids, I don't embrace antinatalism for a few reasons.

    Firstly, I don't think most people feel that their suffering outweighs their pleasures. Some do, no doubt, but they're a minority.

    Secondly, I don't want to eliminate suffering - at least not at this cost. I would prefer a universe with somewhat suffering humans to a universe without them. I value many aspects of mankind, and want them to persist. More than other species, humans have the capacity to reason, to imagine, to seek knowledge, to appreciate the scale and complexity of the universe, to create awesome machines and works of art. The suffering they experience doesn't outweigh all this for me.




    Hmm...

    I think the whole anti-natalist argument stemming from the preponderance of human suffering actually leads to a different and more moderate conclusion than the one they posit. Regardless of whether one feels that the balance falls in favor of suffering or pleasure, it's certainly incontrovertible that this balance is still unsatisfactory and can be improved significantly. Anti-natalists have fallen on, imo the very powerful and correct mechanism to most significantly alter this balance. However, I think that removing  a few humans from the genepool will have a relatively negligible impact on this balance in comparison to increasing the proportion of responsibly initiated parenthood among the human population. To this end the proliferation of birth control methods including condoms and the availability of reproductive (not to mention educational and other potentially affecting) rights to women might be considered the most important issues to tackle in the world today.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Anti-Natalism
     Reply #13 - May 17, 2012, 06:47 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on May 17, 2012, 06:18 PM
    I'd like to eat his brain with some fava beans and a nice chianti.

    TFTH-TFTH-TFTH-TFTH-TFTH-TFTH


    Hmm... seems like this evolutionary meme needs a bit more maturation. Guess we'll have to give it a few generations.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Anti-Natalism
     Reply #14 - May 17, 2012, 07:00 PM
    Quote from: asbie on May 17, 2012, 06:44 PM
    Hmm...

    I think the whole anti-natalist argument stemming from the preponderance of human suffering actually leads to a different and more moderate conclusion than the one they posit. Regardless of whether one feels that the balance falls in favor of suffering or pleasure, it's certainly incontrovertible that this balance is still unsatisfactory and can be improved significantly. Anti-natalists have fallen on, imo the very powerful and correct mechanism to most significantly alter this balance. However, I think that removing  a few humans from the genepool will have a relatively negligible impact on this balance in comparison to increasing the proportion of responsibly initiated parenthood among the human population. To this end the proliferation of birth control methods including condoms and the availability of reproductive (not to mention educational and other potentially affecting) rights to women might be considered the most important issues to tackle in the world today.


    Of course even a dramatic increase in the proportion of responsible parenthood in no way guarantees the elimination of persistent, absurd, and senseless suffering of the people that are thus conceived.

    However, I feel that this is where the premises of the anti-natalist philosophical construct fail. By giving primacy and placing value in suffering above all human experience they are essentially just making a subjective value judgment, which is the very thing it seems like Inmendham criticizes in the response of the panelists when they bring up any sort of positive human experience that might make suffering worthwhile.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Anti-Natalism
     Reply #15 - May 17, 2012, 07:02 PM
    "There are two kinds of sufferers in this world: those who suffer from a lack of life and those who suffer from an overabundance of life. I've always found myself in the second category. When you come to think of it, almost all human behavior and activity is not essentially any different from animal behavior. The most advanced technologies and craftsmanship bring us, at best, up to the super-chimpanzee level. Actually, the gap between, say, Plato or Nietzsche and the average human is greater than the gap between that chimpanzee and the average human. The realm of the real spirit, the true artist, the saint, the philosopher, is rarely achieved.

    Why so few? Why is world history and evolution not stories of progress but rather this endless and futile addition of zeroes. No greater values have developed. Hell, the Greeks 3,000 years ago were just as advanced as we are. So what are these barriers that keep people from reaching anywhere near their real potential? The answer to that can be found in another question, and that's this: Which is the most universal human characteristic - fear or laziness?"
    - Louis Mackey, from Waking Life
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Anti-Natalism
     Reply #16 - May 17, 2012, 07:32 PM
    What a wonderfully eloquent commendation of elitism!  Cheesy
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Anti-Natalism
     Reply #17 - May 17, 2012, 07:36 PM
    The bastards got a point though.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Anti-Natalism
     Reply #18 - May 17, 2012, 08:13 PM
    Guy on the mss sounds depressing. I wonder how he is at parties.
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Anti-Natalism
     Reply #19 - May 17, 2012, 10:30 PM
    Quote from: asbie on May 17, 2012, 05:57 PM
    As individuals we can choose to make moral decisions that transcend our nature, regardless of whether there will be any greater overall practical effect that stems from it. For example, is the pacifism of a conscientious objector going to stop the next World War? Probably not, but that doesn't mean that his/her action would be of no value, or even impossible as you seem to be suggesting.

    I suggested no such thing. You can act however you want, but those acts aren't going to play much of a role in shaping human society if they defy nature. It's pretty useless and irrelevant to hold so much guilt on your shoulders.
  • Re: Anti-Natalism
     Reply #20 - May 17, 2012, 10:48 PM
    I'm not sure where guilt comes into play for an ethical imperative to not have children.  Huh?
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Anti-Natalism
     Reply #21 - May 17, 2012, 11:03 PM
    And why do we have an ethical imperative to not have children?
  • Re: Anti-Natalism
     Reply #22 - May 17, 2012, 11:06 PM
    Because, the shit that we call human existence will probably suck for them and they'll probably make it worse for others, as a rule.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Anti-Natalism
     Reply #23 - May 17, 2012, 11:08 PM
    So basically you think the universe is unethical.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Anti-Natalism
     Reply #24 - May 17, 2012, 11:11 PM
    Quote from: asbie on May 17, 2012, 11:06 PM
    Because, the shit that we call human existence will probably suck for them and they'll probably make it worse for others, as a rule.

    As a rule? Who are you to say whether I like my life or not? Roll Eyes Frankly, I love my life and am extremely happy to exist. What an unnecessarily dark and grim worldview. It's like I'm supposed to feel guilty because some people suck the meaning and beauty out of this universe.
  • Re: Anti-Natalism
     Reply #25 - May 17, 2012, 11:13 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on May 17, 2012, 11:08 PM
    So basically you think the universe is unethical.



    And I don't fall for philosophical ones. If it is indeed a trap.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Anti-Natalism
     Reply #26 - May 17, 2012, 11:15 PM
    Quote from: Abood on May 17, 2012, 11:11 PM
    As a rule? Who are you to say whether I like my life or not? Roll Eyes Frankly, I love my life and am happy to be alive. What an unnecessarily dark and grim worldview.


    Ooh, look at you you lucky ducky.  Roll Eyes
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Anti-Natalism
     Reply #27 - May 17, 2012, 11:16 PM
    Cheesy Now why are some people suspicious of my motives? Surely my purity and innocence shines like a beacon of hope in a cruel and uncertain world.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Anti-Natalism
     Reply #28 - May 17, 2012, 11:17 PM
    Lucky ducky? What's so "lucky" about it? Maybe if people stopped giving into the religious crap that life is meaningless without some objective truth, the universe would be a happier place to exist in. Fucking nihilists.
  • Re: Anti-Natalism
     Reply #29 - May 17, 2012, 11:18 PM
    So by extension, people who have lived happily and comfortably for generations are ok to have babies, but people too poor to dress themselves shouldn't? Huh?
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