Does Islam allow Rape?

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- Klingschor
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Does Islam allow Rape?
OP - June 27, 2012, 07:11 AM

Here's a video I just made:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YY1Tmm7UwRQ

Any thoughts, guys?
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Re: Does Islam allow Rape?
Reply #1 - June 27, 2012, 05:59 PM

Very impressive. I had the same reaction to Zomgitscriss's video. I like her stuff, but I thought this one in particular was superficial, not well-considered, and easily dismissible from a Muslim perspective.

I thought you did a great job in your approach with the fact that in Islam, rape as a crime is not about sex, but rather property. I think that really cuts to the heart of the issue (and as a bonus, highlights the status of women as property), and it's important to emphasize the difference between rape in general, and the rape of slaves and wives. The issue of marital rape is often wrapped up with other practices and beliefs pertaining to marriage, so as a Muslim it was easy for me (and others I know) to ignore the blatant denial that marital rape is even possible.

Some constructive criticism: While I personally loved that you used the word "fuck," its inclusion would make me hesitate to recommend this video to the Muslim women I know. I'm not sure of an alternative that would have a similar impact; "take," perhaps?

As an aside, I was hoping you would include the following hadith regarding rape of captives:

Quote
Sahih Muslim, Chapter 22, Book 8, Number 3371:

Abu Sirma said to Abu Sa'id al Khadri (Allah be pleased with him): O Abu Sa'id, did you hear Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) mentioning al-'azl? He said: Yes, and added: We went out with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born.

The one you used is more directly to the point, but I feel this one is quite revealing in that they were asking Mohammed's advice about contraception, and everyone completely ignored the fact they were raping the women.

Anyway, great video. I felt like you covered the topic really well, and you even brought up a few subtle points I hadn't considered before. Nice job

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Re: Does Islam allow Rape?
Reply #2 - June 27, 2012, 06:23 PM

Quote
I thought you did a great job in your approach with the fact that in Islam, rape as a crime is not about sex, but rather property. I think that really cuts to the heart of the issue (and as a bonus, highlights the status of women as property)

Very perceptive point that cuts to the heart of the matter and the perversity of this attitude.

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Re: Does Islam allow Rape?
Reply #3 - June 27, 2012, 07:17 PM

Great vid! Your knowledge of Islam is enviable!

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Re: Does Islam allow Rape?
Reply #4 - June 27, 2012, 09:26 PM

Another great vid from Klingschor.

It's a small world, I have actually debated with that guy Ramio1983 and he is on my youtube friends list. He seems like quite a nice guy who is in total denial of what the Koran actually says. For example, when he discusses Koran 4.24, he immediately skips forward to 4:36 without even addressing 4.24 at all, as if that verse about treating slaves well somehow refutes 4.24 when it does not even mention sex, consential or otherwise. Total denial!

And as for the rape of captive women. I have discussed this issue with Muslims over at Gawaher forum. They did not deny it happened, they mainly use circular logic to defend it. I.e. it was a different place and time with a different morale standard (all the while still believing that Mo is the perfect role model for all places and times). One guy even staight up replied with this:

Quote
Yes, or else those women and children would die in the desert. You do not expect us to build a palace for them.

http://www.gawaher.com/topic/737053-proof-mohammed-was-sent-from-god-slavery-in-islam/page__st__80
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Re: Does Islam allow Rape?
Reply #5 - June 28, 2012, 03:21 AM

i'm in awe of you sometimes klingschor.. i know you research everything to the fullest and it's just impressive how much work you put into your videos..

thank you..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV9vdUjuWxc
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Re: Does Islam allow Rape?
Reply #6 - June 28, 2012, 08:47 AM

Quote from: Tonyt on June 27, 2012, 09:26 PM
Another great vid from Klingschor.

It's a small world, I have actually debated with that guy Ramio1983 and he is on my youtube friends list. He seems like quite a nice guy who is in total denial of what the Koran actually says. For example, when he discusses Koran 4.24, he immediately skips forward to 4:36 without even addressing 4.24 at all, as if that verse about treating slaves well somehow refutes 4.24 when it does not even mention sex, consential or otherwise. Total denial!

And as for the rape of captive women. I have discussed this issue with Muslims over at Gawaher forum. They did not deny it happened, they mainly use circular logic to defend it. I.e. it was a different place and time with a different morale standard (all the while still believing that Mo is the perfect role model for all places and times). One guy even staight up replied with this:
http://www.gawaher.com/topic/737053-proof-mohammed-was-sent-from-god-slavery-in-islam/page__st__80

if you think that reply was bad, I have had one guy basically tell me the rape was to help the sexual frustration of the captive women who obviously would have wanted the sex too. I was gobsmacked to say the least.

@thread, great video, agreeing with luthiel's point about the word fuck, it's surprising how much can be dismissed as soon as someone becomes offended by a swear word, so for the sake of a wider audience you might want to change that.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: Does Islam allow Rape?
Reply #7 - June 28, 2012, 03:49 PM

ummm.. can I have the subtitle text please if there any
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Re: Does Islam allow Rape?
Reply #8 - June 28, 2012, 07:16 PM

Hi, again most excellent video.

A pertinent link linked to this topic is the most recent 4Thought idea slot on channel 4.

http://www.4thought.tv/themes/have-we-lost-the-true-meaning-of-honour/mizanur-rahman?success=comment
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Re: Does Islam allow Rape?
Reply #9 - June 28, 2012, 11:42 PM

Another Aussie! Yay!

I keep trying to listen to the video, but my internet is shoddy, going to keep trying until I get to listen to the whole of it. Like what I've heard so far.
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Re: Does Islam allow Rape?
Reply #10 - June 29, 2012, 01:08 PM

Quote from: Tonyt on June 27, 2012, 09:26 PM
Another great vid from Klingschor.

It's a small world, I have actually debated with that guy Ramio1983 and he is on my youtube friends list. He seems like quite a nice guy who is in total denial of what the Koran actually says. For example, when he discusses Koran 4.24, he immediately skips forward to 4:36 without even addressing 4.24 at all, as if that verse about treating slaves well somehow refutes 4.24 when it does not even mention sex, consential or otherwise. Total denial!

And as for the rape of captive women. I have discussed this issue with Muslims over at Gawaher forum. They did not deny it happened, they mainly use circular logic to defend it. I.e. it was a different place and time with a different morale standard (all the while still believing that Mo is the perfect role model for all places and times). One guy even staight up replied with this:
http://www.gawaher.com/topic/737053-proof-mohammed-was-sent-from-god-slavery-in-islam/page__st__80

You should have asked him would he defend Serbian soldiers who raped muslim women in concentration camps in Bosnia.

Isn't it funny how cats can understand people without ever reading a single psychology book?
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Re: Does Islam allow Rape?
Reply #11 - June 30, 2012, 01:09 PM

Thanks for the feedback, guys - it is all appreciated.

Quote from: Luthiel on June 27, 2012, 05:59 PM
While I personally loved that you used the word "fuck," its inclusion would make me hesitate to recommend this video to the Muslim women I know. I'm not sure of an alternative that would have a similar impact; "take," perhaps?

I will take this into consideration henceforth.

Quote from: Luthiel on June 27, 2012, 05:59 PM
I was hoping you would include the following hadith regarding rape of captives

I decided against including it because the issue requires too much explanation, and my video was long enough as it was.
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Re: Does Islam allow Rape?
Reply #12 - June 30, 2012, 03:48 PM

Excellent vid, though I imagine many Muslims would be pretty satisfied with Ramio's argument about 4:36 and in response to your counter-argument think, "Yes, maybe people at the time would think raping their slaves is within the bounds of good treatment, but Allah's definition of doing good to those your right hand possesses allows marriage and sex with slaves only insofar as it is mutually concensual". If I remember right I think you made a point that slaves cannot possible give free consent, which would deal with that.

Quote from: Luthiel on June 27, 2012, 05:59 PM
As an aside, I was hoping you would include the following hadith regarding rape of captives:

I too think this would be a good hadith to use (though I understand the time issue in this case). The unusual thing about this hadith (Muslim book 8 #3371) is that the women were going to be ransomed. They were not even going to become wives of their captors first, so if 4:24 indicates that the you must marry your slaves before having sex with them (as some Muslims claim), Muhammad seems to be waiving that constraint here. Also, as they were not going to be cared for by their captors but rather ransomed/sold on, they can't even use the common but awful argument that it was some sort of mutually beneficial arrangement where they would be left on their own to starve otherwise.

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Re: Does Islam allow Rape?
Reply #13 - June 30, 2012, 06:31 PM

Awesome video, but please chill out with the Arabic I think you're slightly over doing your pronunciations it comes across forced. By the way I am not a native Arabic speaker, I'm a Pakistani so take that for what its worth it might just be a subjective thing. Second point I wanted to make, and I have had this used (I actually invented it) when I was a Muslim and this topic came up, did some research, and the best counter argument I could (at the time as a Muslim) come up with was that, a Muslim cannot rape his wife because before the marriage both parties agree to a verbal (and in the modern day written) sex contract this being the (nikkah which basically means to make 'fucking halal' this word 'nikah' is so dirty you can't say it in-front of you parents) (i.e. she's given her consent in the nikkah) so basically my argument was that because a woman has agreed to this sex contract there cannot be rape, as when a party wants sex isn't stipulated, its just an agreement to actually have sex.

(yeah I was abit skeptical of the whole martial rape thing anyway, since its pretty hard to prove anyway)

Now, the issue of consent comes into play with regards to underage girls, so basically Islam allows rape of prepubescent girls since they cannot be in a position to consent or agree to a nikkah. Same is true for slave women or women captured during war, since you don't actually need a nikah with them. So basically Islam allows you to rape girls which can't give concept or women you own as slaves.

Even so even if someone wants to use the nikah argument to get around it, it is still problematic.

Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
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Re: Does Islam allow Rape?
Reply #14 - July 02, 2012, 08:01 AM

From what I remember from the qur'an, there's a part that says something like that ¨...She is like a field to be plowed by her husband anytime he wishes...¨ I'm pretty sure they did that with their wives, captives and slaves...

Like they would ask for permission from women, who they believed were inferior to them and mentally deficient. Anyone who says that the abrahamic religions condemn rape... Bitch please!!
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Re: Does Islam allow Rape?
Reply #15 - July 02, 2012, 08:54 AM

That ramio guy sounds funny, looks like a clown, not that i have anything against clowns
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Re: Does Islam allow Rape?
Reply #16 - July 02, 2012, 02:10 PM

Quote from: sturmgewehr on July 02, 2012, 08:54 AM
That ramio guy sounds funny, looks like a clown, not that i have anything against clowns

Yeah he is kind of a clown. The more that Islam has these naive idiots defending it, the more ridiculous it looks to educated, intelligent people.
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Re: Does Islam allow Rape?
Reply #17 - August 19, 2012, 12:42 PM

Quote from: billy link=topic=21247.msg615588#msg615588 date=1340821 :lipsrsealed:430
Very perceptive point that cuts to the heart of the matter and the perversity of this attitude.

That perceptive point is Luthiel's observation that rape is a crime is about sex rather than property. Then howcome in some quarters in the West rape is about power not sex?

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: Does Islam allow Rape?
Reply #18 - August 19, 2012, 03:00 PM

^ Rape is one of many permissible abuses if one operates on the precedent that women are property.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Re: Does Islam allow Rape?
Reply #19 - August 20, 2012, 03:45 PM

Quote from: devilsadvokat on August 19, 2012, 12:42 PM
That perceptive point is Luthiel's observation that rape is a crime is about sex rather than property.

Just the opposite, actually. And it was Klingschor's point in his video. I was just agreeing with it.

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Re: Does Islam allow Rape?
Reply #20 - August 20, 2012, 07:37 PM

Quote from: Dee789 on July 02, 2012, 08:01 AM
From what I remember from the qur'an, there's a part that says something like that ¨...She is like a field to be plowed by her husband anytime he wishes...¨ I'm pretty sure they did that with their wives, captives and slaves...

This is why the Koran cannot be understood without the Hadith.

The verse is actually:
[2.223] Your wives are a tilth for you, so go into your tilth when you like, and do good beforehand for yourselves, and be careful (of your duty) to Allah, and know that you will meet Him, and give good news to the believers.

How did it come about?

Narrated Jabir: Jews used to say: "If one has sexual intercourse with his wife from the back, then she will deliver a squint-eyed child." So this Verse was revealed:-- "Your wives are a tilth unto you; so go to your tilth when or how you will." (2.223)

Bukhari (Book #60, Hadith #51)

Basically the verse legalizes doggy style. have sex with your wives in any position.
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Re: Does Islam allow Rape?
Reply #21 - August 20, 2012, 09:08 PM

Quote
Does Islam allow Rape?

worse than rape in Islam is what victim goes through because of the lack of support system/becoming a social out cast and worse her own family loved ones beating/killing her that is the horrible life, that no one should go through

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Re: Does Islam allow Rape?
Reply #22 - August 22, 2012, 11:35 PM

Luthiel - maybe I am barking up the wrong tree here, but as I understand it you were agreeing with the OP that rape was about sex rather than property.

This nearly echoes what some feminist say - that it is about power rather than sex.

Both parties discount the 'sex' aspect.

I maybe barking up the wrong tree, I can smell it but not see it.

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: Does Islam allow Rape?
Reply #23 - August 23, 2012, 12:37 AM

It isn't what "some feminists" say. It's what psychologists, criminologists and rapists say.

Rapists are nearly always deeply fucked up individuals who are committing the act out of a deeper pathological appetite to commit violence or to humiliate their victim, to exert power and dominance, or because of complex anger issues, with the act of sex being nothing more than a convenient weapon to do that effectively. Only relatively few rapists do it out of situational loss of control and immediate impulse. It's almost always carefully planned way ahead of time and fully controlled.

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Re: Does Islam allow Rape?
Reply #24 - August 23, 2012, 12:57 AM

Quote from: Ishina on August 23, 2012, 12:37 AM
It isn't what "some feminists" say. It's what psychologists, criminologists and rapists say.

Rapists are nearly always deeply fucked up individuals who are committing the act out of a deeper pathological appetite to commit violence or to humiliate their victim, to exert power and dominance, or because of complex anger issues, with the act of sex being nothing more than a convenient weapon to do that effectively. Only relatively few rapists do it out of situational loss of control and immediate impulse. It's almost always carefully planned way ahead of time and fully controlled.

Agreed. However I think in certain cases it may just be about sex (drunken frat boy fucks passed-out girl at party, etc), not that I think it makes much difference practically speaking.

fuck you
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Re: Does Islam allow Rape?
Reply #25 - August 23, 2012, 01:18 AM

Sure. Clearly that sometimes happens. And by legal definition, rape incorporates those instances.

People arguing that it's ultimately about sex, though, nearly always couple it with the equally crude and unsophisticated idea that it's some kind of natural, biological right or has some evolutionary benefit. That is based on myth, not science.

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Re: Does Islam allow Rape?
Reply #26 - August 23, 2012, 01:27 AM

Eh, I dunno, in a sense isn't a lot of consensual sex about domination and power? At least from my experience. Eh fuck it, try not to think about it too deeply, all I know is I may be an aggressive sex partner but I know rape is wrong and anybody who doesn't get that on a fundamental level without thinking about it too much got some fuckin issues. But then again my ethics are over and above my sex drive AND desire to dominate-- well, mostly anyways.

fuck you
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Re: Does Islam allow Rape?
Reply #27 - August 23, 2012, 01:45 AM

Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi on August 23, 2012, 01:27 AM
Eh, I dunno, in a sense isn't a lot of consensual sex about domination and power?

But that's the single crucial factor that makes rape what it is: non-consent. That's the game changer.

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Re: Does Islam allow Rape?
Reply #28 - August 23, 2012, 01:52 AM

true

fuck you
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Re: Does Islam allow Rape?
Reply #29 - August 27, 2012, 12:12 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTYrjFE6Rcg

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