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 Topic: How did Christianity succeed?

 (Read 2245 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • How did Christianity succeed?
     OP - July 07, 2012, 08:05 AM

    I want to understand on how Christianity-a religion that emerges as a Jewish sect during the Greco-roman times- managed to outgrow other jewish sects that were competing against it and established itself as a state religion of the Roman empire?

    Also does Jesus Christ really exist, aside from the religious sources,Is there a historical information that he really exists?

    Sorry, if there is a thread like this.

    edit:cool, never knew there is a way to edit the topic Grin

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: How did Christianity succeed?
     Reply #1 - July 07, 2012, 09:54 AM

    Quote
    I want to understand on how Christianity-a religion that emerges as a Jewish sect during the Greco-roman times- managed to outgrow other jewish sects that were competing against it and established itself as a state religion of the Roman empire?


    That's a huge topic which covers the entirety of late antiquity, Tonyts website covers it here. If you want an overview of the period written by an academic historian I recommend the works of Peter Brown. Or you could read the works of Rodney Stark who recounts the rise of Christianity from the perspective of a sociologist.

    Quote
    Also does Jesus Christ really exist, aside from the religious sources,Is there a historical information that he really exists?


    Practically every Ancient Historian and New Testament scholar believes there was a Historical Jesus or an individual for which the biblical Jesus is based upon. Only a select few question his historicity but their opinions are not really taken seriously by academics who study early Christianity and Christian origins.

    Bart D. Ehrman recently wrote A book on the historical evidence for Jesus.

    Here a short preview.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SB6EZzJ7m1c
  • Re: How did Christianity succeed?
     Reply #2 - July 07, 2012, 10:12 AM

    Thanks for the links Frollo, always appreciate your opinions along with Tonyts when it comes to history. Afro

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: How did Christianity succeed?
     Reply #3 - July 07, 2012, 03:28 PM

    It was just muddling along until an Emperor decided to build a new Rome and thought he wanted a matching religion and was persuaded that he won a battle because the cross he saw in the sky was of Jesus.

    Follow the money and blame his mum!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: How did Christianity succeed?
     Reply #4 - July 07, 2012, 06:54 PM

    I want to understand on how Christianity-a religion that emerges as a Jewish sect during the Greco-roman times- managed to outgrow other jewish sects that were competing against it and established itself as a state religion of the Roman empire?
    Also does Jesus Christ really exist, aside from the religious sources,Is there a historical information that he really exists?
    Sorry, if there is a thread like this.
    edit:cool, never knew there is a way to edit the topic Grin


    I don't think from a Biblical point of view it is correct to refer to Christianity as starting out as a sect of Judaism. From other veiw points perhaps so but please allow me to explain mine.

    Starting from the stand point that the Bible is a history of God dealing with a group of people that are willing (prehaps used loosely) to be directed.by him. It is a series of covenants. First with Adam and Eve in Paradise. When. Satan, Adam and Eve questioned God's sovereignty there became a need for a new arrangement.  This new arrangement was shown to mankind as a series of covenants.  They are all in the Bible.  But anyhow the Jews should have been aware that there would be a new covenant after the Law Covenant (law given to Moses). The Law is clearly identified as the tutor leading to the Messiah. So those who identified Messiah and continued onto the next phase would be the ones who got it right. The ones who missed are the ones who need to adjust because they missed God's directions. 

    The form of Christianity that became the state religion of Emperor Constantine is clearly a deviation of the teaching of Jesus Christ from who Christians got that name from being Christ like. Some very clear deviations are the Trinity doctrine and clergy / layman division (I think that's the right way to call it), and involvement in politics., just to mention a few things. This is a huge subject. I will make some effort to get on my laptop so I can post some links.

    Also can post some links about Jesus as a historical person.  Jewish historian Humm....spellcheck doesn't have his name. I'll get it














    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: How did Christianity succeed?
     Reply #5 - July 07, 2012, 07:08 PM

    Summary - 99% possibly completely myth.

    Quote
    By Thomas L. Thompson
    Professor Emeritus
    University of Copenhagen
    July 2012


    Bart Ehrman has recently dismissed what he calls mythicist scholarship, my Messiah Myth2 from 2005 among them, as anti-religious motivated denials of a historical Jesus and has attributed to my book arguments and principles which I had never presented, certainly not that Jesus had never existed.3 Rather than dealing with the historicity of the figure of Jesus, my book had argued a considerably different issue, which, however, might well raise problems for many American New Testament scholars who historicize what was better understood as allegorical. Rather than a book on historicity, my The Messiah Myth offered an analysis of the thematic elements and motifs of a particular myth, which had a history of at least 2000 years. This included a discussion of the Synoptic Gospels’ theological reiteration that Samaritan and Jewish scriptures had their roots in an allegorically driven discourse on a large number of dominant ancient Near Eastern literary themes and concerns, most of which were tied to ancient royal ideology. Ehrman pompously ignores my considerable analytical discussion, which was rooted in a wide-ranging, comparative literary classification and analysis of the Old Testament and ancient Near Eastern inscriptions. Apparently to him, the more than 40 years I have devoted to research in my study of the primary fields of Old Testament exegesis, ancient Near Eastern literature and ancient history—not least in regards to questions of historicity—leaves me unqualified and lacking the essential competence to address such questions because they also come to include a comparison of such an analysis with these same stereotypical literary tropes as they occur in the Gospels. I can understand that Ehrman may have some disagreement with my analysis and my conclusions. My introduction takes up the notoriously stereotypical figure of Jesus as (mistaken) eschatological prophet, which Ehrman—himself reiterating Schweitzer—asserts as, somehow, obviously historical. His lack of reflection on ancient forms of allegory, such as that reflected by Qohelet’s—and indeed Philo’s—principle that—in their world of theologically driven literature—there is little new under the sun, certainly provides adequate grounds for considerable disagreement, which I welcome. It is puzzling, however, that he seems sincerely unaware of the Old Testament and ancient Near Eastern thematic elements which are comparable to those of the Gospels: pivotal motifs such as “the one chosen by god,” the “inaugural announcement of the divine kingdom,” and “the good news” of that kingdom’s saving reversals, which offer a utopian hope to the poor and oppressed, the widow and the orphan. He even seems to ignore the stereotypical implications of the royal figure of a conquering messiah—which historical kings have indeed used in their “biographies.” Such an ancient theme as “life’s victory over death” gets its first treatment in the Gospels in a reiteration of the stories of Elisha. Surely, this is not news to him—anymore than he can be unaware of the Gospel reiterations of the “eternal need to crush the head of the evil one,” so central to the St. George myth—though no less central to an understanding of Jesus in the Gospels. Such narratively embraced themes can hardly be understood as providing historical evidence for any figure of the ancient world; this has always been the stuff other than the historical. Why has he written such a diatribe as Did Jesus Exist? And having decided to write it: why didn’t he take his title seriously and attempt to give a reasonable argument concerning his conviction that he did?

    I think a less polemically minded Bart Ehrman would recognize that this project on reiterated narrative, based in an analysis of comparative literature, can only be furthered by one who is familiar with Old Testament and ancient Near Eastern literature.4 Nevertheless, his crude dismissal of the relevance of inter-disciplinary perspectives undermines my confidence that he understands the problems related to the historicity of a literary figure, except from a historicist—even fundamentalist—perspective. Although the irritation provoked by his misreading of my work, which I had published—fully aware that I was entering territory not my own—in “fear and trembling” at the prospect of detailed objections from just such a Brahmin of New Testament studies. At the same time, I must admit that I am pleased that such a well-known scholar has so clearly demonstrated, for all to see, the need—and therefore justification—for Tom Verenna’s and my little volume of essays, which will appear in the coming week or two, which deals with the very issue of the historicity of the New Testament figure of Jesus, which Bart Ehrman so thoroughly has misunderstood. This new book does deal with historicity: what we know about a historical Jesus and what we do not. The volume tries to make a virtue of the interdisciplinary approach and some of the contributions are written by quite well known, but interesting and well qualified historians and exegetes on the question of evidence and historical warrant for which Ehrman and some of his colleagues have taken for granted, assuring us that they possess more than what is adequate in the Albrightean “top drawers of their writing desks.” The book includes a discussion of the basis for our knowing or not knowing that this figure of New Testament literature had, in fact, lived in a historical Palestine of the first century, CE. It also includes essays dealing with the various possibilities of evidence for Jesus’ existence which may be implied in Paul’s writings, as well as, other, differently nuanced questions which scholars are asking today, including, alternative avenues for exploring the New Testament literature and its historicity. All of these articles, I believe, impinge closely on the nature of first and second century Samaritanism and Judaism, and, with that, its influence on the historical origins of Christianity.

    Ehrman has asserted that the present state of New Testament scholarship is such that an established scholar should present his Life of Jesus, without considering whether this figure, in fact, lived as a historical person. The assumptions implied reflect a serious problem regarding the historical quality of scholarship in biblical studies—not least that which presents itself as self-evidently historical-critical. I wrote my monograph of 2005 in an effort to explore the continuity of a limited number of themes which were rooted in ancient Near Eastern royal ideology5 —an issue which is not only marginally related to questions of historicity, but one which also has much to say about the perception of history and historical method among modern scholars. I am, accordingly, very pleased that Thomas Verenna and I can offer this response to Ehrman’s unconscionable attack on critical scholarship in so timely a manner. It is a small book, and its ambitions are few: hardly more than to point out that our warrant for assuming the existence of a historical Jesus has important limits. In the course of that statement, I hope that readers will find some very interesting, new avenues of research being explored.




    http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/tho368005.shtml

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: How did Christianity succeed?
     Reply #6 - July 07, 2012, 07:22 PM

    Interesting review on Amazon on the Bart Ehrman book:

    Quote
    The Question is Unanswered April 11, 2012
    By Thomas in CC

    Being someone with an undergradauate degree in Classics, and one year of graduate theology, I have a passing interest in the topic of Jesus' life and the life of early Christianity. Despite holding an accepting view, or concession rather, that Jesus the historical figure did exist, I am fully aware of the limits to making absolute conclusions in this regard. When I heard the interview on NPR regarding this book, I was like, "Oh, this should be an interesting read and either answer some questions I have had lingering on this topic; or it should help me further develop my already existing opinions in one way or the other." Well, the uncritical review I have of this book is simply that the book does not answer the question the title presents. After reading this book, I am no more convinced of Jesus' historical existence now than I had in the past.

    Critically speaking, the book is a terrible read, and rife with the author's own narcissism. He fails to make a constructive arguments against those who posit theories denying the historical existence of Jesus. The author presents several theories in published works on behalf of who he pens the "mythicists," and rather than address the false logic or evidence supporting those theories, he largely relies on ad hominen attacks. For example, Ehrman states that one theorist has some very good ideas, but, and I paraphrase, he states something to the effect that, "Although he appears to know a great deal about the subject matter, he only has a bachelor's degree in classics and so really should have no voice in the dialogue." Ehrman also goes on to make statements that none of the mythicists really have the training or formal education in the field of New Testament studies to have an opinion. My opinion is that Ehrman tries to discredit the so-called mythicists in an attempt to dismiss their theories. Ehrman fails to adress the arguments of those he seeks to contest in this book in favor of dismissing them on their training and formal education in the field of NT studies. However, Ehrman does note that there is at least one high powered scholar, named Price, who has the scholarly credentials, training, and education to make contributions to the dialogue on the topic of the historical Jesus, but maintains a mythicist hypothesis. Ehrman's response to Price is, "He is wrong, because almost everyone else believes Jesus existed."

    It's also tiresome to read Ehrman's constant speculation about how this current book will be received by those who read it. Hardly a chapter goes by where Erhman doesn't subject the reader to hear his trite fantasies about how some people, who used to hate his work, will now applaud him, while others will remain disappointed that he does not champion an evangelical approach to the Bible or its historicity. Again, do I as an independent reader really want to read several paragraphs a chapter about such nonsense that only conerns Erhman's fascination with his own reputation? Erhman also never fails to nauseate the reader by constant repetition that he is a scholar, he is now an agnostic teetering on atheism, and how absurd he thinks evangelical Christians are in their approach to the bible. Trust me when I say, this form of self speak in a book is excessive, narcissistic, and wastes the time of the reader who spent money for a well researched book.

    Ehrman's arguments for the existence of Jesus are also very weak. And, despite his no-holds-barred approach on making disparaging comments to his perceived academic opponents, Ehrman makes no convincingly new arguments himself. Further, as someone with only an undergraduate degree in Classics and one year of graduate theology (I have a Masters and PhD in Counseling), I can honestly say that reading Ehrman's book has not taught me anything significant that I didn't already know or haven't heard before reading this.

    Ehrman's argument for the historical Jesus is basically founded on a premise where he calculates that 99.99% of "scholars" accept that Jesus was a historical figure. So, after creating a credential about who is a scholar and who is not, Ehrman writes that the people who fall under this criteria for admission to the Schola Magna of New Testament studies largely accept Jesus as a historical figure. In Erhman's reasoning, if people who have formal training and education in New Testament studies accept the historical Jesus as fact, then it must be so because such people are much smarter and more educated than anyone else on the topic. I don't think I need to explain to anyone how unsound an argument this is, but, nonetheless, the self appointed expert Ehrman uses it.

    There were other gross inaccuracies in the book as well. To mention that the New Testament was written in Greek is no surprise. However, Ehrman says, "It was written in very good Greek." Now, I am no Greek expert, but I took a few classes in classical Greek. The Greek of the New Testament, Koine Greek, was communicated to me by multiple professors in my classics program, as a very low and poorly written style of classical Greek. Using Erhman's argument, I would say that most Greek Scholars would widely disagree with Erhman's statement that New testament Greek is very good Greek. I had a classics professor who laughed when I asked him if he thought about using the NT as source for a class on classical Greek.

    Lastly, one other Ehrman argument that is really an insult to a serious student of classical literature of any kind, especially biblical literature, is with regard to source material used to validate the existence of a historical Jesus. Ehrman does, and quite well, address the difficulty with saying Jesus was/is a historical figure by lack of existing contemporary archaeological and written sources. Ehrman cocnedes that the New Testament is the best, and biggest, source for validating Jesus' past existence. Ehrman further concedes that the NT was written decades or more after Jesus reportedly lived, and so validates that there was no real contemporary written proof for Jesus. Ehrman then fantastically cites that although the NT comes much later than Jesus' reported life and death, the NT itself is drawn from sources that existed at the time Jesus existed. He cites the Q sources, the Mark source, and the M and L source. These are reportedly written sources during Jesus' time by his disciples and contemporaries. The problem here is that none of these sources are identifiable. The Q source is a theoretical source text that was first mentioned more than 15 centuries after the creation of the gospels. It is purely theoretical/speculative, and it was created by a German NT scholar to explain commonalities in the Gospel narrartives. There is no "proof" - arachaological or 3rd party written sources - that there ever was/is a Q source predating the Gospels and contributing to the gospel narratives. Again, a german scholar centuries after the Gospels were written and consolidated speculated that there must be some pre-Gospel written source he named "Quelle." Such a source came from this man's best guess/hypothesis, and nothing else. Paul, who started his work only a decade or so after Jesus's death never cites the "Q" source, no evidence has yielded that early Christians relied on a "Q" source, none of them used a "Q" source to communicate their religious narrative, no early Christian community used the "Q" source for religious rituals/services, and none of the Gospels themselves even mention the "Q" source. At least the Gospels exist in real time, but these suppositional pre-Gospel source texts (viz., the Q source, etc...) are purely theoretical and speculative. I would hardly think that a serious scholar would present them as "proof" of contemporary writings at the time of Jesus. One would first have to prove that the Q source actually existed before it could be used as proof for Jesus' existence, which Ehrman does not do.

    All in all, the book is not only a waste of time, but it does nothing other than reveal how impoverished the discourse is on the topic of the historical Jesus. Avoid the Book! Save your money and buy an ice cream or something else with it.


    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: How did Christianity succeed?
     Reply #7 - July 07, 2012, 08:23 PM

    If I remember correctly Robert Price and Thomas Thompson are the only professional academics that can be described as mythicists and even then Thompson still acknowledges the existence of a historical Jesus, he's just agnostic on what we can know about him. 

    Also moi that blog post Thompson wrote doesn't in anyway hint that Jesus is "99% possibly completely myth" just that many early Christian writings and tales about Jesus can find parallels in Old Testament and Ancient ear Eastern writings (an opinion that is very much on the fringe within academia).

    Also if the review allat posted put anyone off from reading Ehrmans book here are three articles on the topic of mythicism and the historical Jesus written by scholars. Hoffmann, one of the three authors is an atheist, I don't know the religious affiliations of the other two.
  • Re: How did Christianity succeed?
     Reply #8 - July 08, 2012, 02:22 AM

    Thanks for the links Frollo, always appreciate your opinions along with Tonyts when it comes to history. Afro


    Thanks for the props Cato and Frollo. My webpage is mainly intended for teenagers and undergrads so it does not really go into detail on these subjects.

    Further to what I have written on my webpage, here are some additional points to consider:

    1) I plug Stark's book on my webpage. But that does not mean I actually believe his argument to be particularly strong, I just consider it an interesting theory. The problem with his conclusion that the rise of Christianity can be attributed to better survival rates amongst Christian communities during epidemics because they cared more for their sick needs much more evidence. Firstly there needs to be more proof that pagans DID NOT care for their sick, and secondly there needs to be more evidence that primitive methods of caring for the sick actually worked. The author states:

    "Modern medical experts believe that conscientious nursing without any medications could cut the mortality rate by two-thirds or even more."

    But this statement is not referenced or backed up by any footnote pointing to any actual research in this area. Yet it is the most important contention in the whole book, on which all the other numerical estimates rely.

    2) I think generally the concept of Monotheism was gaining ground throughout the East Med (we should consider early Christianity to be an East Med movement, and exclusively Greek. The only early Christians in the West Med were Greek speaking immigrants) it was gaining ground among all literate levels of society. Monotheism was simply the direction that Greek philosophy was evolving towards. So seeing as the Jews already had Monotheism, it was perhaps natural that they would pick up their version of it. It just needed to be purged of it's racist overtones (Jews as the chosen people) so that it could be palatable to the Greeks.

    3) No one can deny that the great majority of people in the Ancient world (the slaves and the poor) had very little to look forward to in their everyday lives. So the promise of an afterlife was obviously very attractive. So we can see that it had mass appeal and could appeal to both the learned philosopher and the downtrodden masses.

    4) I think the elephant in the room here is the Jews. People tend to discount how much influence the Jews had back then because throughout most of history the Jews have been a tiny, persecuted minority. But back in the Roman Era this was not the case at all. They were extremely numerous, not just in Judea but in the whole East med, especially Asia Minor, Alexandria and Kyrenaica (not coincidentally the main centers of early Christianity). Shitloads of people were becoming Jews all over the East Med in the first 2 Centuries of the Christian Era. I need to do more research in this area myself, I have not really studied the various Jewish-Roman Wars, but it is well-known that they were some of the bloodiest wars in history. The Romans were shit scared of the Jews. The Jews basically wiped out the entire non-Jewish population of Kyrenaica during the Kitos War (115–117 AD). Just think of how numerous the Jews must have been if they were capable of doing that (they were civilians, not an army), I am sure the accounts of massacres are exaggerated, but Hadrian had to resettle the area because it was practically empty after the war.

    Anyway the point I am trying to make is that the Jews had probably laid much or the groundwork for Christianity to spread. The Jewish faith was a powerful one (the idea of a heaven and hell was extremely palatable in that era) but it was not accepting enough of others, hence all of the violence between Jews and Pagans in this period, it needed to be tweaked slightly to be more accommodating and friendly to potential converts. But by the time Christianity came on the scene the general population of the East Med was already pretty familiar with the stories of the Old Testament.

    5) By the time Constantine made Christianity the dominant faith of the Empire, it was supposedly already the faith of 50% of the population of the East Med and 1/6th of the pop. of the West Med. So we cannot just say that it was all down to Constantine. He was responsible for making the Empire a "Monotheistic Empire" and for setting in place the process whereby a plurality of beliefs would disappear, but you cannot say that he was responsible for the early growth of Christianity, he is too late for that.
  • Re: How did Christianity succeed?
     Reply #9 - July 08, 2012, 03:36 PM


    Tony, love reading your posts like that one - really does contribute greatly to this forum  Afro

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: How did Christianity succeed?
     Reply #10 - July 13, 2012, 02:50 PM

    in one word

    constantine
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