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Theme Changer

 Topic: Philosophical Bullshit

 (Read 5254 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Philosophical Bullshit
     OP - July 17, 2012, 08:59 PM

    This thread will contain philosophical questions and arguments of the purely intellectual wanking ilk. Please feel free to make absurd statements, internally consistent chimeras, and other such bullshit creations/dilemmas of the mind.

    I will begin this thread with the following scenario/challenge. Person A kills Person B. Person B is caught completely unawares and is killed instantly without any perception of their death. No one witnesses this crime, and there is no effect from Person A's murder of Person B on any other beings. Prove that Person A has committed an immoral act without appealing to the intrinsic value of human life.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Philosophical Bullshit
     Reply #1 - July 17, 2012, 09:04 PM

    What motivated this killing?
  • Re: Philosophical Bullshit
     Reply #2 - July 17, 2012, 09:21 PM

    Could be motivated by anything. Suffice it to say, that Person A does not perceive any negative impact on their well-being from having committed the murder.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Philosophical Bullshit
     Reply #3 - July 17, 2012, 09:30 PM


    Morality is whatever we define it to be as a society.

    As a society we define murder to be immoral.  Person A murdered Person B.  Therefore Person A committed an immoral act.

    If you want to delve more into why murder is immoral.
    - violation of right to life (which you explicitly say not to mention)
    - violation of individual self-ownership.  You own yourself and your being.  Person A violated the property of Person B... that property being themselves

    Now why are these considered immoral acts?

    At the end of the day... it is the morality we subscribe to as part of society.  That's the extent of it.

  • Re: Philosophical Bullshit
     Reply #4 - July 17, 2012, 10:13 PM

    Morality is whatever we define it to be as a society.

    As a society we define murder to be immoral.  Person A murdered Person B.  Therefore Person A committed an immoral act.

    If you want to delve more into why murder is immoral.
    - violation of right to life (which you explicitly say not to mention)
    - violation of individual self-ownership.  You own yourself and your being.  Person A violated the property of Person B... that property being themselves

    Now why are these considered immoral acts?

    At the end of the day... it is the morality we subscribe to as part of society.  That's the extent of it.




    Aah, wonderfully deconstructed, and while I didn't say you couldn't mention a right to life (only an intrinsic value of that life), I think these are both fine points.

    However, in both cases you are appealing to a conception of individual rights. As the person whose rights were violated is dead, he is incapable of perceiving this slight. I submit that a non-living person has no such rights to life or self-ownership and thus it is not immoral to deprive him/her of it.

    Also, as far as the societal source of morality goes, I said to assume that no other beings are effected by the murder of Person B by Person A. Therefore the event essentially occurs in a societal vacuum as no members of society besides Person A and Person B are effected by it.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Philosophical Bullshit
     Reply #5 - July 17, 2012, 10:59 PM

    Also, as far as the societal source of morality goes, I said to assume that no other beings are effected by the murder of Person B by Person A. Therefore the event essentially occurs in a societal vacuum as no members of society besides Person A and Person B are effected by it.

    So, if society does not exist, murder is not immoral? Interesting tautology. Certainly, without societies, you have no means of enforcing taboos - which, to my eye, are the foundation of morality. The more entrenched the taboo, the more important that one comes up with reasons to enforce it, and the more one must lie in its service.

    I must take issue with this, though:

    However, in both cases you are appealing to a conception of individual rights. As the person whose rights were violated is dead, he is incapable of perceiving this slight. I submit that a non-living person has no such rights to life or self-ownership and thus it is not immoral to deprive him/her of it.


    How do you propose to deprive someone of something that they have already been deprived of?

    It's stating the obvious to say that a dead man can perceive no slights. However, a living man - if we must assume that rights exist - might be thought to have rights, and a fairly commonly held right is founded in the expectation that people not be deprived of life arbitrarily (i.e. through the action of other men acting without society's approval). If you will wrong the man by killing him, then the slight has surely already been made.
  • Re: Philosophical Bullshit
     Reply #6 - July 17, 2012, 11:44 PM


    How do you propose to deprive someone of something that they have already been deprived of?

    It's stating the obvious to say that a dead man can perceive no slights. However, a living man - if we must assume that rights exist - might be thought to have rights, and a fairly commonly held right is founded in the expectation that people not be deprived of life arbitrarily (i.e. through the action of other men acting without society's approval). If you will wrong the man by killing him, then the slight has surely already been made.



    Person B does not experience any such deprivation, however. Person B is dead the moment that Person A executed their murder and is blissfully unaware of the the entire activity throughout it's formulation, execution, and obviously it's aftermath. I also am unaware of anyone advancing a right that people not be deprived of life arbitrarily, indeed our hostile environment would clearly belie any such right. Thus as no right has been infringed upon, it would appear that you are instead condemning the nature of the action committed by Person A. At best then, you could call this a victimless crime, but that still does not clarify the morality of the action.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Philosophical Bullshit
     Reply #7 - July 18, 2012, 12:26 AM

    I will begin this thread with the following scenario/challenge. Person A kills Person B. Person B is caught completely unawares and is killed instantly without any perception of their death. No one witnesses this crime, and there is no effect from Person A's murder of Person B on any other beings. Prove that Person A has committed an immoral act without appealing to the intrinsic value of human life.


    I think it's only possible to show it's immoral within the confines of some deontological ethical framework. Then I could just point to a rule (not to kill innocent persons) Person A violated.

    You could up the stakes even more:

    Through some sinister futuristic machine, Person A instantly destroys all life on Earth (including himself) completely painlessly. Prove that he committed an immoral act Tongue

    Have you heard the good news? There is no God!
  • Re: Philosophical Bullshit
     Reply #8 - July 18, 2012, 01:58 AM

    I think it's only possible to show it's immoral within the confines of some deontological ethical framework. Then I could just point to a rule (not to kill innocent persons) Person A violated.


    That's clearly cheating.  Tongue

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Philosophical Bullshit
     Reply #9 - July 18, 2012, 08:25 AM

    Person B does not experience any such deprivation, however. Person B is dead the moment that Person A executed their murder and is blissfully unaware of the the entire activity throughout it's formulation, execution, and obviously it's aftermath.

    So if a murder is painless for the unfortunate person murdered, it doesn't matter that their ability to experience anything is taken away?
    Help me out here. My working summary of your argument is something like this:

    1a. An action that has disadvantageous consequences for actors within societies is immoral.
    1b. If an action x is committed by actor A upon actor B in society S, the consequences of x upon B and S are respectively dependent on B and S's perception of the consequences.
    2. B is unable to perceive the consequences of x.
    3. x does not result in perceptible (negative or positive) consequences for other members of S.
    4. x has no disadvantaging consequences (2, 3).
    5. x is not immoral (1a, 1b, 4).

    I also am unaware of anyone advancing a right that people not be deprived of life arbitrarily, indeed our hostile environment would clearly belie any such right.

    You appeared to state that rights existed, and so I've played along. Murder is conventionally considered a criminal offence, by which the public is wronged as well as the person murdered. Many might argue that this is a corollary of a right not to be arbitrarily deprived of life.

    Thus as no right has been infringed upon, it would appear that you are instead condemning the nature of the action committed by Person A. At best then, you could call this a victimless crime, but that still does not clarify the morality of the action.

    I haven't condemned anything. This whole scenario strikes me as a variant of the "if a tree falls in a forest.." thought experiment, where you're asking if it's immoral to commit an act where nobody is around to perceive an immorality; you've then pursued an apparently consequentialist line of argument, down to postulating that no subjective disutility incurs to anyone else, and that dead men are unable to perceive utility anyway.
  • Re: Philosophical Bullshit
     Reply #10 - July 18, 2012, 09:28 AM

    I believe what asbie is arguing is that without society, there is no one to impose their moral judgement on the killer. That's not a tautology; it's an assertion that denies the existence of metaphysical rights.

    I also am unaware of anyone advancing a right that people not be deprived of life arbitrarily, indeed our hostile environment would clearly belie any such right.

    Are you kidding? Have you heard of something called the Universal Declaration of Human Rights? The right to life is the very first one. It is the very basis of liberal philosophy and politics and a belief that philosophers have ingrained in Western thought and civilization since the Enlightenment.
  • Re: Philosophical Bullshit
     Reply #11 - July 18, 2012, 09:59 AM

    I believe what asbie is arguing is that without society, there is no one to impose their moral judgement on the killer. That's not a tautology; it's an assertion that denies the existence of metaphysical rights.

    Can metaphysical (=natural?) rights have any meaning outside society? To me, any talk of rights implies a society in which they are commonly accepted. Take away society and the consensus (morality with a capital M) disappears, leaving only individual interpretations of how best to behave.
  • Re: Philosophical Bullshit
     Reply #12 - July 18, 2012, 10:10 AM

    Metaphysical rights by definition exist with or without society. What you're saying is that metaphysical rights don't exist, which I agree with you on, but it's an argument.
  • Re: Philosophical Bullshit
     Reply #13 - July 18, 2012, 05:12 PM

    Huh? person A just wanted to be the last person on this earth?
    I think this game is not for me  Smiley
  • Re: Philosophical Bullshit
     Reply #14 - July 19, 2012, 03:20 AM

    So if a murder is painless for the unfortunate person murdered, it doesn't matter that their ability to experience anything is taken away?


    It might matter, but by saying it does you're arguing for the value of human life as for humans life is defined through experience. Also, it is not only a painless death but also instantaneous and not perceived in any way by Person B.

    Help me out here. My working summary of your argument is something like this:

    1a. An action that has disadvantageous consequences for actors within societies is immoral.
    1b. If an action x is committed by actor A upon actor B in society S, the consequences of x upon B and S are respectively dependent on B and S's perception of the consequences.
    2. B is unable to perceive the consequences of x.
    3. x does not result in perceptible (negative or positive) consequences for other members of S.
    4. x has no disadvantaging consequences (2, 3).
    5. x is not immoral (1a, 1b, 4).


    Yup, you got it.  Afro

    You appeared to state that rights existed, and so I've played along. Murder is conventionally considered a criminal offence, by which the public is wronged as well as the person murdered. Many might argue that this is a corollary of a right not to be arbitrarily deprived of life.


    There is no absolute right not to be hit by a truck, just as there is no absolute right to not be skewered by a falling branch or eaten by a badger. Such a right would be absurd. You've correctly identified that I've argued from a consequentialist perspective that neither society nor Person B have been wronged, being unable to perceive the act. Thus the murder could at best be seen as a victimless crime.

    I haven't condemned anything. This whole scenario strikes me as a variant of the "if a tree falls in a forest.." thought experiment, where you're asking if it's immoral to commit an act where nobody is around to perceive an immorality; you've then pursued an apparently consequentialist line of argument, down to postulating that no subjective disutility incurs to anyone else, and that dead men are unable to perceive utility anyway.


    Yup, got it mate.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Philosophical Bullshit
     Reply #15 - July 19, 2012, 03:29 AM

    I believe what asbie is arguing is that without society, there is no one to impose their moral judgement on the killer. That's not a tautology; it's an assertion that denies the existence of metaphysical rights.


    Society doesn't really play a role in this scenario, as they remain completely unaware of and unaffected by this act. What kind of metaphysical right are you asserting would apply in this case?

    Are you kidding? Have you heard of something called the Universal Declaration of Human Rights? The right to life is the very first one. It is the very basis of liberal philosophy and politics and a belief that philosophers have ingrained in Western thought and civilization since the Enlightenment.


    There is no absolute right not to be hit by a truck, just as there is no absolute right to not be skewered by a falling branch or eaten by a badger or dieing of old age. Such a right is not in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as such a right would be absurd.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Philosophical Bullshit
     Reply #16 - July 19, 2012, 04:04 AM

    How did you jump from one person killing another to one person being acted upon by their aging process? Rights assume agency and control. Accidents and natural phenomena are beyond the scope of rights. What you're talking about has absolutely nothing to do with morality.

    Frankly, I think you're confusing yourself and everyone else with you. Step back and think about what you're saying.
  • Re: Philosophical Bullshit
     Reply #17 - July 19, 2012, 04:27 AM

    How did you jump from one person killing another to one person being acted upon by their aging process? Rights assume agency and control. Accidents and natural phenomena are beyond the scope of rights. What you're talking about has absolutely nothing to do with morality.

    Frankly, I think you're confusing yourself and everyone else with you. Step back and think about what you're saying.


    Both death by murder and death by aging infringe on an absolute right to life. A relative right to life is more universally accepted, i.e. someone has a right to not be deprived of life via the actions of another person.

    In this scenario, the victim (Person B) of the act does not perceive any harm as a result of the action, and neither does society, but clearly person B is being deprived of their life. This clearly relates to consequentialist morality, as the utility of both of these parties is not being affected unless one holds there to be value in life, which of course is a concept that I explicitly asked any "challengers" to refrain from appealing to.  whistling2

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Philosophical Bullshit
     Reply #18 - July 19, 2012, 04:40 AM

    Let's rewind a bit, shall we?

    This is what you said:
    Quote
    I also am unaware of anyone advancing a right that people not be deprived of life arbitrarily, indeed our hostile environment would clearly belie any such right.

    That's a logical fallacy. Namely, it's the naturalistic fallacy. You talk about rights and connect an argument against the existence of a right to a conception of nature. Rights are about what ought to be. Nature is what is. Even if we were to assume, as you do, that nature falls within the scope of morality, you can't argue that the hostility of nature is any sort of evidence against the right to life. If we have a right to life, we have a right to protect ourselves against nature's hostility. In other words, we believe nature ought not be hostile.

    You said that you don't know anyone making the assertion that people have a right to life. I said that in fact philosophers for centuries have made that assertion, and it is the basis of the UDHR. The fact that nature is hostile is irrelevant to that argument. Just as one person killing another is irrelevant to the fact that the victim had the right to life.
  • Re: Philosophical Bullshit
     Reply #19 - July 19, 2012, 05:01 AM

    Let's rewind a bit, shall we?

    This is what you said:That's a logical fallacy. Namely, it's the naturalistic fallacy. You talk about rights and connect an argument against the existence of a right to a conception of nature. Rights are about what ought to be. Nature is what is. Even if we were to assume, as you do, that nature falls within the scope of morality, you can't argue that the hostility of nature is any sort of evidence against the right to life. If we have a right to life, we have a right to protect ourselves against nature's hostility. In other words, we believe nature ought not be hostile.



    It is evidence against the practical usefulness of designating something as nebulous and all-encompassing as a "right to life". In any case, it is the human source of deprivation that is really at the core of such a right, not some abstract conception of how the universe "ought" to be.

    You said that you don't know anyone making the assertion that people have a right to life. I said that in fact philosophers for centuries have made that assertion, and it is the basis of the UDHR. The fact that nature is hostile is irrelevant to that argument. Just as one person killing another is irrelevant to the fact that the victim had the right to life.


    An absolute right to life would be implied by an assertion that "nature ought not be hostile". I'm unaware of any philosopher making such a statement (which doesn't mean they haven't, just that I'm unaware), nor is such an absolute right to life laid out in the UDHR. Simply saying "everyone has the right to life", is not enough to establish such an all encompassing principle.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Philosophical Bullshit
     Reply #20 - July 19, 2012, 11:10 AM

    I don't understand what the point of the thread is.

    You've constructed a scenario of conditions so removed from reality and meaning that murder wouldn't actually be wrong within it. The reasons murder is wrong in the actual universe do not exist within the universe you've constructed. Murder is a superfluous concept within it. So the answer is: Murder is not wrong (within it).

    By the way, murder is wrongful killing by definition. But I assume you mean just the base act of one thing killing another, not Murder as we commonly understand it.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Philosophical Bullshit
     Reply #21 - July 19, 2012, 11:45 AM

    I don't understand what the point of the thread is.

    You've constructed a scenario of conditions so removed from reality .............

    well Ishina., I wanted to say similar words on this thread and the story in it..but I am not as sophisticated as you are .. . So,   not only  I don't understand the logic of this thread but I consider it as    "Philosophical Bullshit"  .. similar to that  "flying Spaghetti Philosophy"

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Philosophical Bullshit
     Reply #22 - July 19, 2012, 12:51 PM

    This thread will contain philosophical questions and arguments of the purely intellectual wanking ilk. Please feel free to make absurd statements, internally consistent chimeras, and other such bullshit creations/dilemmas of the mind.

    I will begin this thread with the following scenario/challenge. Person A kills Person B. Person B is caught completely unawares and is killed instantly without any perception of their death. No one witnesses this crime, and there is no effect from Person A's murder of Person B on any other beings. Prove that Person A has committed an immoral act without appealing to the intrinsic value of human life.


     ... who's to say me putting person A in jail , is not in fact really setting him/her free..
  • Re: Philosophical Bullshit
     Reply #23 - July 24, 2012, 12:26 PM

    I don't understand what the point of the thread is.

    You've constructed a scenario of conditions so removed from reality and meaning that murder wouldn't actually be wrong within it. The reasons murder is wrong in the actual universe do not exist within the universe you've constructed. Murder is a superfluous concept within it. So the answer is: Murder is not wrong (within it).

    By the way, murder is wrongful killing by definition. But I assume you mean just the base act of one thing killing another, not Murder as we commonly understand it.


    I agree... But the OP is consistent with the thread title.
  • Philosophical Bullshit
     Reply #24 - December 26, 2012, 02:01 AM

    So this thread is basically about moral philosophy right.

    Well morality is basically a set of rules made by humans according to what they find desirable. These set of rules are derived from two sources.


    1) We all have pretty much the same internal sense of morality/altruism built into us by the process of evolution by natural selection. (excluding psychopaths)

    2) And there are also various moral philosophies(e.x. utilitarianism) to choose from in order to determine solutions to more complex moral issues such as  the murder scenario mentioned in the first post.

    So essentially the cause of the difference in moral judgments of two people regarding the same situation can be attributed to the moral philosophies they ascribe to.

    What i'm trying to say is that when arguing ethics it's useful if the person states their philosophical approach to the moral problem before debating it.  

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
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