Quran 4:34

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Quran 4:34
OP - July 24, 2012, 04:20 PM

just because the Quran says you are allowed to 'beat' your wife (in certain circumstances) - in reality those who were/are going to would have done with or without instruction from a book and those husbands who naturally would not are not going to whether it is written in the Quran or not?

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: Quran 4:34
Reply #1 - July 24, 2012, 06:01 PM

Unfortunately, like most bad things in the Koran, it provides a justification for those who wish that behavior.

What is worse is that it can in effect regress society and prevent real social change.
Child-marriages for example are very hard to get rid of in Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia... because well... it is allowed in Islam. The prophet did it, so why can't they?

It becomes hard to bring change to correct that wrong.

Now you can say that a man who is going to beat his wife is going to beat his wife anyways... and I would argue that the law and social norms of a society dramatically impact what a person thinks and how they act. Societies that make it unacceptable to beat a woman tend to have a much lower rate of wife abuse. It becomes socially unacceptable. If you see it, you report it. The woman knows to report it. The husband might restrain himself knowing the consequences and how bad it would look to society.

I think the individual and society/social norms and laws are impossible to separate.
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Re: Quran 4:34
Reply #2 - July 24, 2012, 06:53 PM

Quote from: devilsadvokat on July 24, 2012, 04:20 PM
just because the Quran says you are allowed to 'beat' your wife (in certain circumstances) - in reality those who were/are going to would have done with or without instruction from a book and those husbands who naturally would not are not going to whether it is written in the Quran or not?

Indeed! But then why have that divine injunction at all ? It doesn't prevent 'bad' people from beating their wives. In fact it exculpates them in 'certain circumstances'. Besides, 'good' people would be flouting it by not doing what's recommended under those 'certain circumstances'.

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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
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he must have been thinking of 4:34 when he said that !

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Re: Quran 4:34
Reply #3 - July 24, 2012, 07:34 PM

Quote from: devilsadvokat on July 24, 2012, 04:20 PM
in reality those who were/are going to would have done with or without instruction from a book and those husbands who naturally would not are not going to whether it is written in the Quran or not?

I think not necessarily. One of my (former) friends' husband, from what little I knew of him, was not the sort of person to be easily incited to violence. However, he made the considered decision to beat his other wife, at least once that I know of but doubtless other times as well. The story, as told by my friend, goes like this:

[husband, speaking to my friend (his wife) about his other wife]
Husband: So, she did (insert mildly disrespectful behavior), and she just won't stop.
My friend: Yes, that is very disrespectful. I would never do that. She really can't continue it.
Husband: I've asked her many times, but she won't listen. I suppose I have no choice but to beat her.
My friend: I agree, you have no choice.

He proceeded to plan the beating, choosing the implement (I think he chose a belt), the location (her arm), and the number of beatings (don't remember). It was carried out in a very calculated manner.

He very clearly chose to beat her as a means of correction, and as a direct result of the Qur'anic recommendation in such a circumstance.

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Re: Quran 4:34
Reply #4 - July 26, 2012, 07:10 PM

Hypocrucifier - I am not promoting/defending the Quran. I attach no divinity to it. Just saying what I said in the OP. It may prevent 'bad' people from beating the shit or close to - out of their wives.

Luthiel - I thought there were other steps to take before the utimate sanction of beating his wife.

Scamper_22 - People do what they desire and then fit the justification around it.

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: Quran 4:34
Reply #5 - July 26, 2012, 07:46 PM

Quote from: devilsadvokat on July 26, 2012, 07:10 PM
Scamper_22 - People do what they desire and then fit the justification around it.

But what people desire is heavily influenced by the values and social norms and rules of the society they live in.

A society/culture that tolerates/justifies men beating woman is going to raise men who are more likely to hit a woman than one that does not.
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Re: Quran 4:34
Reply #6 - July 27, 2012, 05:22 PM

Quote from: devilsadvokat on July 26, 2012, 07:10 PM
Luthiel - I thought there were other steps to take before the utimate sanction of beating his wife.

Yes, and he took them. His conversation with my friend was about how those steps weren't working, and so he had no choice but to move on to the beatings.

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Re: Quran 4:34
Reply #7 - July 28, 2012, 04:18 PM

Quote from: scamper_22 on July 26, 2012, 07:46 PM
But what people desire is heavily influenced by the values and social norms and rules of the society they live in.

A society/culture that tolerates/justifies men beating woman is going to raise men who are more likely to hit a woman than one that does not.

Hi scamper_22. You live in canada, according to a survey of gender specialist canada is the best place for a women amongst the richest nations yet women still get murdered and suffer domestic abuse. Imo you could have the best equality between men and women but there still would be domestic violence. perhaps their is something else that leads to domestic violence other than equality in the constitution or a verse in the Quran. Perhaps.

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: Quran 4:34
Reply #8 - July 28, 2012, 04:20 PM

Quote from: Luthiel on July 27, 2012, 05:22 PM
Yes, and he took them. His conversation with my friend was about how those steps weren't working, and so he had no choice but to move on to the beatings.

Very Very Interesting. Need details - what was it over? Did it change things? Did they live happily after - either together or seperated?

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: Quran 4:34
Reply #9 - July 28, 2012, 05:03 PM

Quote from: devilsadvokat on July 28, 2012, 04:18 PM
Hi scamper_22. You live in canada, according to a survey of gender specialist canada is the best place for a women amongst the richest nations yet women still get murdered and suffer domestic abuse. Imo you could have the best equality between men and women but there still would be domestic violence. perhaps their is something else that leads to domestic violence other than equality in the constitution or a verse in the Quran. Perhaps.

No body said the quran was the sole source of domestic violence.
But the quran and islam contribute heavily to a culture of repression, violence, and oppression against women and prevent the culture from moving forward against these... because how they lived 1400 years ago was seen as the perfect way to live.

Care to compare the rates of violence against women in Canada to those in Islamic countries?
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Re: Quran 4:34
Reply #10 - July 28, 2012, 05:12 PM

Will get back to you scamper chief.

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: Quran 4:34
Reply #11 - July 29, 2012, 04:03 AM

Quote from: devilsadvokat on July 28, 2012, 04:20 PM
Very Very Interesting. Need details - what was it over? Did it change things? Did they live happily after - either together or seperated?

What the hell could be simply "interesting" about it? It's tragic and morally condemnable that a man would find divine mandate for such an action regardless of the circumstances.

Also, your follow-up questions betray your sympathies in such a situation (Hint: It's not for the victim of domestic violence). Frankly it's despicable that you'd try to defend the presence of such a verse in a "Holy" book, but the manner in which you're doing it is also cowardly and underhanded. You're a despicable, underhanded coward.

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Re: Quran 4:34
Reply #12 - July 29, 2012, 04:51 PM

Asbie - Cry me a fucking river

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: Quran 4:34
Reply #13 - July 29, 2012, 05:40 PM

He's right though.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

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Re: Quran 4:34
Reply #14 - July 29, 2012, 06:11 PM

Quote from: devilsadvokat on July 24, 2012, 04:20 PM
just because the Quran says you are allowed to 'beat' your wife (in certain circumstances) - in reality those who were/are going to would have done with or without instruction from a book and those husbands who naturally would not are not going to whether it is written in the Quran or not?

Unfortunately, many Muslims will seek justification from this verse whenever they unleash their anger towards their wives, as I observed.
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Re: Quran 4:34
Reply #15 - July 29, 2012, 06:53 PM

Quote from: Shinsengumi on July 29, 2012, 06:11 PM
Unfortunately, many Muslims will seek justification from this verse whenever they unleash their anger towards their wives, as I observed.

Is that before or after the event? Do the observe the necessary steps prior to unleashing their anger?

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: Quran 4:34
Reply #16 - July 29, 2012, 06:56 PM

Quote from: Shinsengumi on July 29, 2012, 06:11 PM
Unfortunately, many Muslims will seek justification from this verse whenever they unleash their anger towards their wives, as I observed.

well take same verse reverse it../ or say bad translation..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DisdO1nBsXc

hmm., that is American way of screwing original Islam

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Re: Quran 4:34
Reply #17 - July 29, 2012, 07:11 PM

Quote from: devilsadvokat on July 29, 2012, 06:53 PM
Is that before or after the event? Do the observe the necessary steps prior to unleashing their anger?

After the event, as I observed. Of course first this pathetic guy said that the wife's salary should be his because he is the husband, bla bla bla. When the wife refused, he unleashed the anger and nearly beat the wife. When asked the reason why, he defended himself by putting the Quran as his excuse, and wife should be obedient.
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Re: Quran 4:34
Reply #18 - July 29, 2012, 07:26 PM

I am led to believe that the money the wife earns - she keeps. The husband is not entitled to it afaik.

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: Quran 4:34
Reply #19 - July 30, 2012, 01:47 AM

Billy - the context that I hold this discussion is one in which I want to discuss the possibility that we are confusing cause and effect.

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: Quran 4:34
Reply #20 - July 31, 2012, 03:44 PM

Scamper - comparing Canada to say Pakistan is not a fair comparison.

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: Quran 4:34
Reply #21 - August 18, 2012, 12:50 AM

Perhaps the Prophet or the real writers of the Quran, missed a trick. Perhaps there should have been an equivalent verse for women to exact a cold considered response to control/cajole/admonish their husbands.

It can't be beat your husband, you got to have trade-offs, perhaps it should have been withdrawal of sex, warnings of, implementation, prescribed lengths with divorce at the end. Though no sex for x amount of time constitutes an Islamic divorce anyways.

I am talking 14th century.

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: Quran 4:34
Reply #22 - September 20, 2012, 02:15 PM

How can beating a grown up woman be effective? I've always thought Mohammed was talking about the wives as young as Aisha... I mean I thought beating a wife to him was like beating a child
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Re: Quran 4:34
Reply #23 - September 20, 2012, 03:36 PM

Quote from: Yume89 on September 20, 2012, 02:15 PM
I mean I thought beating a wife to him was like beating a child

You're absolutely right, Yume. In many ways, a wife is treated like a child and it's one of the main reasons I never got married.

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Re: Quran 4:34
Reply #24 - September 20, 2012, 05:38 PM

Devilsadvokat, always bandying around as usual.

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Re: Quran 4:34
Reply #25 - September 20, 2012, 07:46 PM

Quote from: Luthiel on September 20, 2012, 03:36 PM
You're absolutely right, Yume. In many ways, a wife is treated like a child and it's one of the main reasons I never got married.

As a Muslim ? Presumably you are an ex now, would you still say all men treat their wives as kids?

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Re: Quran 4:34
Reply #26 - September 20, 2012, 08:32 PM

Sorry I didn't specify, but yes, I meant Muslim wives. Many of the Islamic guidelines for marriage seem more like a parent-child dynamic than that of partners.

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Re: Quran 4:34
Reply #27 - September 20, 2012, 09:14 PM

^ my community is a good example! Only men here know what is right and what is wrong, even if they're younger than you!!
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