Hadiths ...were people making up the stuff like muhammad

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- Azdaha ExMuslim
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Hadiths ...were people making up the stuff like muhammad
OP - July 30, 2012, 07:37 PM

Even as a muslim i used to think about hadiths that how come people remembered so many exact wordings of muhammad that even after 10s of years of his death they were transmitted accurately. Sometimes i used to think that may be people of that wanted to justify their actions and they made up hadiths to justify that. Some hadiths are quite ridiculous which companions of muhammad (if they truly considered him the prophet) would be ashamed of telling. Like how muhammad got safiya, how companions of muhammad practiced coitus interrupts and raped female war captives, how muhammad got tempted after looking at a woman and had sex with one of his wife ....and many more like this

what do you guys think?

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- yeezevee
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Re: Hadiths ...were people making up the stuff like muhammad
Reply #1 - July 30, 2012, 07:59 PM

Quote from: Azdaha ExMuslim on July 30, 2012, 07:37 PM
Even as a muslim i used to think about hadiths that how come people remembered so many exact wordings of muhammad that even after 10s of years of his death they were transmitted accurately. Sometimes i used to think that may be people of that wanted to justify their actions and they made up hadiths to justify that. Some hadiths are quite ridiculous which companions of muhammad (if they truly considered him the prophet) would be ashamed of telling. Like how muhammad got safiya, how companions of muhammad practiced coitus interrupts and raped female war captives, how muhammad got tempted after looking at a woman and had sex with one of his wife ....and many more like this

what do you guys think?

Muhammad of hadith, Muhammad of Quran and Muhammad sunnah stories that run around Muslims families/communities are nothing but cock & bull stories. There was NO MUHAMMAD in Islam. This character is built/put together by early Arab writers by adding multiple stories of different Muslim leaders all the way to 9th century by the approval of those 7th century Caliphs and later Islamic kingdoms.

Meccan verses of Quran were written based upon JESUS of Christianity, where as the Madinan verses and last 13 years of alleged war mongering Muhammad must be atleast three or four Muhammad some good and some bad characters put together.. WHOLE ISLAM IS HOAX

That Muhammad may have come from/born in Multiple cities that we see in the above map and it is very much possible those multiple Muhammads come at different times all the way from the year 632 BC to 900 BC.. each century adding different stories of different "PRAISED ONES" (Muhammads) in to these hadiths or even to Quran in 7th century.

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Re: Hadiths ...were people making up the stuff like muhammad
Reply #2 - July 30, 2012, 08:49 PM

~630 AD - Mohamed dies

~850 AD - Bukhari finishes his work.

So you have about 200 years of he said, she said before Bukhari does his work.
You can just picture Bukhari roaming the Arab villages talking to people and they say things like

"I heard Bob's father's uncle's friend Mike's cousin's uncle once said that the prophet said he used to pee with one his right leg forward."

Get a few common stories and Bukhari classifies it as a strong hadith. Combine this with the strangeness that Bukhari claims he did all this because he had a dream about Mohamed and his is tasked to write the true Hadith so not a falsehood will be told against him... So we're not dealing without someone of a spiritual nature... not some kind of scientist.

To compound it, this came about during the Abbasid empire which involved all kinds of politics...

That anyone... even regular Muslims takes the hadith seriously is a mystery to me.
- Azdaha ExMuslim
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Re: Hadiths ...were people making up the stuff like muhammad
Reply #3 - July 30, 2012, 08:58 PM

Most of the muslims are now moving towards Quran only islam ...or selected [small set] hadiths.......

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- Omaar Khayaam
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Re: Hadiths ...were people making up the stuff like muhammad
Reply #4 - July 30, 2012, 09:03 PM

In principle I agree. But I think there is some oversimplification though. The Muhadith developed the science of Isnaad to study the route of transmission and the people involved. The history and character is checked before a hadith is admitted into the cannon. If the person is deemed to be a liar or untrustworthy, then the hadith is rejected. Unless a few other chains of transmission can be endorsed in which the characters are sound. It is pretty complex in theory.
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Re: Hadiths ...were people making up the stuff like muhammad
Reply #5 - July 30, 2012, 09:16 PM

Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on July 30, 2012, 09:03 PM
................ It is pretty complex in theory....

Foolish Islamic preachers make that silly hadith line of transmission more complex than what it is., If we add all those line of transmission from so-called Shahi hadith, more than half of those silly hadiths will put Islamic Prophet as Criminal Character.. Yet we know as long as he was married to Khadija he was not a criminal guy., that is 15 years of his life before Islam and 10 years of his life after Islam.. All these Hadiths stories of Aisha started after His first wife's death..

It is funny we don't see much of these hadiths during fist 10 years of his Islam.

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Re: Hadiths ...were people making up the stuff like muhammad
Reply #6 - July 30, 2012, 09:31 PM

Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on July 30, 2012, 09:03 PM
In principle I agree. But I think there is some oversimplification though. The Muhadith developed the science of Isnaad to study the route of transmission and the people involved. The history and character is checked before a hadith is admitted into the cannon. If the person is deemed to be a liar or untrustworthy, then the hadith is rejected. Unless a few other chains of transmission can be endorsed in which the characters are sound. It is pretty complex in theory.

I don't think it is really that complex. Yes, they checked to make sure the chain of transmitters is said. But at the end of the day, it is still relying on people's memory of he said/she said 200 years after he lived.

Combine that with political motivations of people at all times, and you have a recipe for problems.

I'm not suggesting they didn't make some effort. I'm just saying it's not anything complicated or anything that would be hard to forge.
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Re: Hadiths ...were people making up the stuff like muhammad
Reply #7 - July 30, 2012, 10:01 PM

The quran is the book that is most read and least used .....the hadith is most used and least read ..there are all a bunch of sheep
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Re: Hadiths ...were people making up the stuff like muhammad
Reply #8 - July 31, 2012, 12:44 AM

Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on July 30, 2012, 09:03 PM
In principle I agree. But I think there is some oversimplification though. The Muhadith developed the science of Isnaad to study the route of transmission and the people involved. The history and character is checked before a hadith is admitted into the cannon. If the person is deemed to be a liar or untrustworthy, then the hadith is rejected. Unless a few other chains of transmission can be endorsed in which the characters are sound. It is pretty complex in theory.

Here's one thing that has really confused me about isnaad though.

The hadiths were collected in 850 and Mo died in 630. So there is a 220 year gap and we can presume that the hadiths were passed down at least 4/5 generations. How did they know if someone was a 'good' guy say in the year 690 when he was passed down a hadith. Basically how did they profile every single person that transmitted the hadith. I mean it's not like their profiles were in the local library or anything. How did they know, for instance, the one guy who received the hadith in say, 710 AD, was not lying? How and where did they get the information about him from?
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Re: Hadiths ...were people making up the stuff like muhammad
Reply #9 - July 31, 2012, 09:11 AM

Well, according to Muslim claims, the people that livid during those times actually had a superior memory to today's human's.

This is the same excuse that is used by some scholars to justify Mo banging Aisha. They claim one of the reasons they got married was because Aisha was young and had a great memory. (So she could continue passing on Islamic knowledge after Mo's death.)

Fucking idiots.
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Re: Hadiths ...were people making up the stuff like muhammad
Reply #10 - July 31, 2012, 10:00 AM

Quote from: ZOMG on July 31, 2012, 12:44 AM
Here's one thing that has really confused me about isnaad though.

The hadiths were collected in 850 and Mo died in 630. So there is a 220 year gap and we can presume that the hadiths were passed down at least 4/5 generations. How did they know if someone was a 'good' guy say in the year 690 when he was passed down a hadith. Basically how did they profile every single person that transmitted the hadith. I mean it's not like their profiles were in the local library or anything. How did they know, for instance, the one guy who received the hadith in say, 710 AD, was not lying? How and where did they get the information about him from?

Its like you or me having to verify whether someone who lived in 1892 had a good character and was reliable or not.

Isnaad is a very superficial kind of retrospective justification that seeks an appearance of validity, a fig leaf for believers, with claims of some kind of 'scientific' accuracy over things. Its nonsense.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Hadiths ...were people making up the stuff like muhammad
Reply #11 - July 31, 2012, 10:01 AM

Quote from: The Demba on July 31, 2012, 09:11 AM
Well, according to Muslim claims, the people that livid during those times actually had a superior memory to today's human's.

The contortions that believers go through to try and square these things can be so hilarious.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: Hadiths ...were people making up the stuff like muhammad
Reply #12 - July 31, 2012, 02:38 PM

Quote from: billy on July 31, 2012, 10:00 AM
Its like you or me having to verify whether someone who lived in 1892 had a good character and was reliable or not.

Isnaad is a very superficial kind of retrospective justification that seeks an appearance of validity, a fig leaf for believers, with claims of some kind of 'scientific' accuracy over things. Its nonsense.

Exactly. And even for us, despite all the technological advancements and the advanced ways of getting information on acestors ect we would still have an extremely hard time of getting some detailed information on the character of a normal guy who lived in 1892.

I just don't get how they were able to get such information on a person's reliability ect.
Quote from: The Demba on July 31, 2012, 09:11 AM
Well, according to Muslim claims, the people that livid during those times actually had a superior memory to today's human's.

This is the same excuse that is used by some scholars to justify Mo banging Aisha. They claim one of the reasons they got married was because Aisha was young and had a great memory. (So she could continue passing on Islamic knowledge after Mo's death.)

Fucking idiots.

Lol, well said.
- Azdaha ExMuslim
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Re: Hadiths ...were people making up the stuff like muhammad
Reply #13 - August 01, 2012, 12:16 PM

Most of the hadiths are biblical in nature. Killing adultere/adulteress...killing apostates...eating 7 ajwa dates and poinson will not hurt you .... any many more like this....

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- Azdaha ExMuslim
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Re: Hadiths ...were people making up the stuff like muhammad
Reply #14 - August 01, 2012, 12:20 PM

and most imp...the most awaited coming of jesus...dajjal etc....

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Re: Hadiths ...were people making up the stuff like muhammad
Reply #15 - August 14, 2012, 09:49 PM

Quote
Hadith, ‘Ajwa Dates and Science
Other day a person, seemingly a Christian polemicist left me an email, challenging me on something which he thought was really a big deal. He quoted the following Hadith:

Narrated Sa’d: The Prophet said, "If somebody takes some 'Ajwa dates every morning, he will not be effected by poison or magic on that day till night." (Another narrator said seven dates). (Sahih Bukhari)

And then hurled the challenge;

are you today ready to take this simple challenge and eat 7 Ajwa dates and then drink poison and survive ?

http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2011/07/hadith-ajwa-dates-and-science.html

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Re: Hadiths ...were people making up the stuff like muhammad
Reply #16 - August 24, 2012, 04:34 AM

Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on July 30, 2012, 09:03 PM
In principle I agree. But I think there is some oversimplification though. The Muhadith developed the science of Isnaad to study the route of transmission and the people involved. The history and character is checked before a hadith is admitted into the cannon. If the person is deemed to be a liar or untrustworthy, then the hadith is rejected. Unless a few other chains of transmission can be endorsed in which the characters are sound. It is pretty complex in theory.

It's not an oversimplification, it's really the right amount of simplification because it beggars belief that any of the hadith roaming around 200 years after the timeframe the prophet supposedly lived in are any good. Running a lot of absolute garbage through a complex pruning system leaves you with nothing but a smaller amount of garbage.

The whole thing can be dismissed that easily. There's no reason to regard the way they pruned the hadith as having any merit, because they checked it against a history that also wasn't written until about a 100 years after the timeframe of the prophet. But even assuming they had an incredibly documented history to work with, the false positives they'd have ended up with would have still dwarfed the true hadith in the pile simply by the amount of garbage you started with.
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Re: Hadiths ...were people making up the stuff like muhammad
Reply #17 - August 24, 2012, 06:51 AM

Again. I know where you are coming from. But here we have to remember that that society was an oral society. This is not to say that it wasn't garbage. There is presumably a lot of nonsense mixed in with things that happened. The question is, what reason do we have for trusting (or not) the transmitters and writers of hadith?
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