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Theme Changer

 Topic: do you ever wonder if you are wrong?

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  • do you ever wonder if you are wrong?
     OP - August 11, 2012, 03:08 PM

    often when i see educated people following islam it crosses my mind that if these people believe in islam then maybe there is somthing i have failed to see or understand.

    do you ever wonder if islam is the truth and your making a mistake?
  • Re: do you ever wonder if you are wrong?
     Reply #1 - August 11, 2012, 03:21 PM

    often when i see educated people following islam it crosses my mind that if these people believe in islam then maybe there is somthing i have failed to see or understand.

    do you ever wonder if islam is the truth and your making a mistake?


     The question is do they ever wonder??

    but people  must  have full freedom to convert in to whatever  religion they want/ any faith they like .  
     as long as they don't act like  cult characters  and without any persecution from one side or other.


    and the other question is,   do these guy ever read any of these religious scripture and use their brain bit to analyze and understand them


    So how are you doing monstart? welcome to CEMB to start thinking again

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: do you ever wonder if you are wrong?
     Reply #2 - August 11, 2012, 03:22 PM

    Nope and heres why

    There are educated people following liberal forms of islam, christianity, hinduism and tonnes of other religions. They can't all be right now can they?

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Re: do you ever wonder if you are wrong?
     Reply #3 - August 11, 2012, 03:24 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mmskXXetcg
  • Re: do you ever wonder if you are wrong?
     Reply #4 - August 11, 2012, 03:28 PM

    Wow, I've really never thought of that before. How did you even manage to formulate such a deep and novel question?
  • Re: do you ever wonder if you are wrong?
     Reply #5 - August 11, 2012, 03:52 PM

    “Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: do you ever wonder if you are wrong?
     Reply #6 - August 11, 2012, 03:58 PM

    ...do you ever wonder if islam is the truth and your making a mistake?

     

    We are ex muslims.. what do u think?  Tongue

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Re: do you ever wonder if you are wrong?
     Reply #7 - August 11, 2012, 04:35 PM

    Nope. I'm convinced it's all a load of shite.

    Not bothered one bit about death.
  • Re: do you ever wonder if you are wrong?
     Reply #8 - August 11, 2012, 05:22 PM

    im suprised at the way some of you have reacted. It is not a stupid question, i have ocasionally seen people on this forum expressing doubts as to weather leaving islam was the correct thing to do. I even remember seeing Hassan on the ummah forum asking people to give him reasons to be a muslim again (obviously it must cross his mind), i was just wondering how common it is.
  • Re: do you ever wonder if you are wrong?
     Reply #9 - August 11, 2012, 05:37 PM

    im suprised at the way some of you have reacted. It is not a stupid question, i have ocasionally seen people on this forum expressing doubts as to weather leaving islam was the correct thing to do. I even remember seeing Hassan on the ummah forum asking people to give him reasons to be a muslim again (obviously it must cross his mind), i was just wondering how common it is.


    Really .. you are also in to Ummah.com?  Mono  Start? 

    Mashallah.. Mash Allah. smash books/idols and all

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: do you ever wonder if you are wrong?
     Reply #10 - August 11, 2012, 06:23 PM

    It's not a stupid question at all, in my opinion.

    Don't it like it? Then just fuck off.
  • Re: do you ever wonder if you are wrong?
     Reply #11 - August 11, 2012, 06:39 PM

    This is what my girlfriend says.  She agrees with all the stuff I say about Islam.
    Yet she always says "but how can you know more than all the scholars who study Islam all their life.  Others are doctors, engineers..."

    My response:

    1. Scholars who leave Islam or have really controversial views are normally killed (Turan Dursun), fearful of their life... so they just leave their post quietly
    2.  They almost never question the origin or basis for things.  They take it on faith that Mohamed was revealed the Koran and he was a near perfect man and we should follow his example for eternity.  Once this basis of faith is established, then their intelligence begins.  This is not unique to Islam in any way.  Politics is another area you see this heavily in.  
    3.  A lot of people don't care to see if something is true or not.  This took me a long long long time to understand.  Once I left Islam and started pushing conversations with people, I came to know of many other people in my community who left Islam.  But they don't really care.  This is our community and our people; we don't hate them.  It is good to have ceremonies for births, marriages, funerals.  It is good to have family around.  So they don't bother worry about the truth aspect of it.  I'm really glad I talked to a lot of the more liberal/athiest people in my community before doing something rash.  While I'm still more expressive than some people, I see that in the grand scheme of life, as long as you know the truth internally and can live a decent life, it is all good.  I struggle with this a lot, but I am trying to wise up myself.


    So while I would read the history and Hadith and Koran... and realize Mohamed was just another Arab warlord horny for lots of women and power, they will read everything from the basis of Mohamed being the greatest guy.  No matter what he did, it,there must be a reason as they take it on faith he was a great guy.

    All I can say, is I spent 28 years of my life in Islam going through phases and learning.  I am very learned and very comfortable with my decision to leave it.  It was a long long long process as I'm sure it was for most for us.  I don't think I left a stone unturned in trying to remain a Muslim.  What was strange for me, was I left Islam long after I had my trouble days.  I left Islam at a time in my life, when I had good relations with family and wasn't really doing anything *bad* at the community level.  

    In that, I wasn't drinking of partying a lot.  I wasn't rebelling.  I had a small period of time when that was the case a while ago, but I was still an ardent Muslim at that point.  
    Once I worked all that out and was peaceful, I think I had time to figure it all out, and I realized I didn't believe in Islam.  I left Islam after studying the koran and hadith.  I now wonder why I didn't study it to such depth before when I used to believe.

    I didn't leave Islam for a woman.
    I didn't leave Islam because I wanted to drink or party.

    I left Islam out of knowledge.  So, I am more than comfortable and will never go back.




  • Re: do you ever wonder if you are wrong?
     Reply #12 - August 11, 2012, 11:51 PM

    Silly question. Evolution.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: do you ever wonder if you are wrong?
     Reply #13 - August 12, 2012, 04:01 AM

    no and yes

    edit*

    Quote
    often when i see educated people following islam it crosses my mind that if these people believe in islam then maybe there is somthing i have failed to see or understand.


    no.

    Quote
    do you ever wonder if islam is the truth and your making a mistake?


    yes,
    7-8 years .. in the past.
  • Re: do you ever wonder if you are wrong?
     Reply #14 - August 12, 2012, 10:51 AM

    The god of Islam is so ridiculous and infantile. It's a boring god. So utterly boring that it almost causes me physical pain to hear Muslims describe it. It's such a tiny, shitty idea. Such a mundane, pedestrian, uninspiring idea. I'd be crushingly disappointed if I died and then woke up in some shitty limited human vision of Paradise with that boring god lording it over everyone. That petty, shitty, sleazy little god.

    The question is irrelevant anyway. Even if the Muslims of the world miraculously managed to prove the existence of their shitty god, nothing would change for me. I wouldn't worship it. Wouldn't respect it. Wouldn't suddenly respect people who worshiped it. Besides, if the god of Islam does exist, it created me just to torture me anyway. It's not like I could do anything against my predetermined fate as described in the Quran. Might as well just carry on doing fun stuff.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: do you ever wonder if you are wrong?
     Reply #15 - August 12, 2012, 11:53 AM

    With regards a creator of greater intellect than I, I do occasionally get a feeling of doubt; not so much in my opinion itself (that there's no reason at all to think such a thing exists) but in my ability to come to the correct one. i.e. Have I really been honest with myself? Have I prematurely dismissed decent arguments against my position? It last happened earlier this year when I was walking home from work late one evening; it was a clear sky and the moon illuminated a patch of grass on which a couple of rabbits were standing. I momentarily felt a little overawed, a little euphoric, and decided to try to think about religious belief from scratch. Thirty seconds later I realised I still couldn't come up with any arguments to justify a doubt in my opinion, and life continued as usual.
  • Re: do you ever wonder if you are wrong?
     Reply #16 - August 12, 2012, 03:25 PM

    As an outsider it seems clear as daylight that Islam is made up. Mohammed was a sexual pervert and a self-rightious prick, there is nothing divine about his character. Any god worth worshipping wouldn't reveal himself to such a jerk. Wait, except the evil sadistic monster muslims call "god". And he stole directly from the bible it's most ridiculous and clearly false stories such as that of a global flood. He also stole the science of the day which has long time since been debunked.

    Muslims pretend that the Quran is written in a superior language and is extremely poetic, this they say either after many years of indoctrination into believing it is true or without the slightest knowledge of the language. Yeah, let me pretend that some obscure japanese haiku poems are superior and poetic even though I don't understand a word of japanese or after having been brainwashed by some japanese master for all my life. That is just pathetic.

    Muslim are encouraged to kill apostates and converts to other religions, even if it's their own child. That is the hallmark sign of a CULT! If you believe that apostasy leads to hell in the hereafter, why are you so eager to send your children there without giving them the slightest time to repent? Yeah, really a religion of peace. We saw how that evil atheist in indonesia disturbed that peace, he made a mob come and beat him up, surely they were not to blame for their own actions, afterall a comment on facebook is like raping someone.

    Would a god worth worshipping create a culture of abused women and infantile men who cannot control themselves at all? It seems to me more consistent to believe that Islam is from the devil than from God. I see nothing redeeming in Islam. Nothing good and nothing true. It's a religion for hypocrits, intellectully dishonest and complete idiots. Sorry if I offend someone, but this is what islam looks like from the outside.
  • Re: do you ever wonder if you are wrong?
     Reply #17 - August 12, 2012, 03:34 PM

    As an outsider it seems clear as daylight that Islam is made up. .............. It's a religion for hypocrits, intellectully dishonest and complete idiots. Sorry if I offend someone, but this is what islam looks like from the outside.

    well you are outsider, so you feel that way., but Mr. brefots., suppose if you put your legs in Islamic shoes for some time and become insider, do you think you will have same opinion on Islam as you have now??

    and welcome to cemb.

    with best regards
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: do you ever wonder if you are wrong?
     Reply #18 - August 12, 2012, 04:03 PM

    Perhaps not. But I feel pretty much the same way about mormonism, and there I was an insider. Now I've been out so long that I have a hard time to understand how anyone can believe in silly fairytales and a big spoiled baby being in charge of the universe. That is the god of all the abrahamitic religions. A god so insecure that we have to constantly kiss his ass or he will get a tantrum like a 5-year old. And we must believe even though there isn't the slightest evidence for his existence.
  • Re: do you ever wonder if you are wrong?
     Reply #19 - August 12, 2012, 04:52 PM

    Unless there is a concrete evidence that Qur'an is not a man-made, then NO!

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: do you ever wonder if you are wrong?
     Reply #20 - August 12, 2012, 08:36 PM

    Perhaps not. But I feel pretty much the same way about mormonism, and there I was an insider. Now I've been out so long that I have a hard time to understand how anyone can believe in silly fairytales and a big spoiled baby being in charge of the universe. That is the god of all the abrahamitic religions. A god so insecure that we have to constantly kiss his ass or he will get a tantrum like a 5-year old. And we must believe even though there isn't the slightest evidence for his existence.


    I think religions reflect the IQ of the people who make up the bulk of their followers. It's what works for them. Or did.

    ETA - The IQ of the people who 'recieved' the religion.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: do you ever wonder if you are wrong?
     Reply #21 - August 12, 2012, 08:44 PM

    I'd like to add that 'wahabism' lives and prosper because of the money thrown at it.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: do you ever wonder if you are wrong?
     Reply #22 - August 13, 2012, 09:04 AM

    It took me a while to get over that idea. I think it's a fallacy equating intelligent people following a particular religion. Just think of Dr Rowan Williams and Jonathan Sacks. One is the archbishop and the other is a rabbi. Or take even take Abdal Hakim Murad. The Muslim theologian from Cambridge University. These are just three from the Abrahamic tradition, clearly educated and intelligent. Yet they hold conflicting dogmas.

    When I had doubts and was on the brink of apostasy. It was the above type of thinking regarding intelligent and educated people which kept me in Islam for a long time.
  • Re: do you ever wonder if you are wrong?
     Reply #23 - August 13, 2012, 10:07 AM

    I wished I could be convinced that there is a god for a long while, wanted to believe in 'something greater'. It's more like I want to believe things will turn out ok in the end, no matter the outcome. No matter where I end up in life, that there will still be that one positive constant of a god, of 'hope', that there will be hope left.

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: do you ever wonder if you are wrong?
     Reply #24 - August 13, 2012, 10:14 AM

    I'm more worried that I may be right. It's a terrible responsibility.
  • Re: do you ever wonder if you are wrong?
     Reply #25 - August 13, 2012, 10:31 AM


    The god of Islam and Christianity (at least the un-castrated Old Testament god of Christianity) is such an absurd, stupid, vicious, sadistic, hateful, petty, pathetic, narcissistic, absurd, needy, immoral, spiteful, horrible, abusive, wife-beating, stalker, comically insecure deity - and so obviously the construct of men of a particular time and place, that my contempt for this construct grows greater all the time, the more great claims are made for it and its mafia on earth amongst men and women.

    I don't believe in the existence of any other deity or cosmic consciousness either, but, for example, the romantic and entirely unfounded hope of a pantheistic force doesn't offend against my moral sense and knowledge the way that the Josef Fritzl god of Islam and old school Christianity does - my every fibre screams against its lies and hatred and delusion and immorality.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: do you ever wonder if you are wrong?
     Reply #26 - August 13, 2012, 10:50 AM

    often when i see educated people following islam it crosses my mind that if these people believe in islam then maybe there is somthing i have failed to see or understand.

    do you ever wonder if islam is the truth and your making a mistake?


    I know what you mean. Every now and then I will get pangs of doubt, I accept them now.

    Islam did have a positive effect on my life, and I had some 'mystical' experiences whilst being a Sufi that have contributed to me still entertaining stuff like Graham Hancock's books, Near death experiences and energy medicine. I also lived for 2 months in Malaysia with muslims and it pretty much changed my perspective on life - and caused me to become a devout conservative muslim. And there is beneficial wisdom and sprituality in Islam that I still draw from.

    But in all honesty they are fleeting pangs, and they are related to general anxiety issues. When I'm in a period of uncertainty I tend to generally question my beleifs and major decisions. I had that tendency before I converted to Islam.

    I've actually become bemused at times by my emotional inclination towards the abrahamic mythical narrative. I realize it's probably due to my indoctrination with christianity as a child, and my emotional connection to Islam. Religious naturalism is a good emotional replacement for being a muslim IMO and IME.

    Regarding intelligent people; In all honesty if you ask them why they believe in Islam or listen to a lecture from a 'Dr' you'll see it's normally fleshed out creationsim, god of the gaps, pascal's wager and the watchmaker argument. Hamza Tzorztis probably presents the most 'sophisticated' arguments for Islam that you'll come across.

    I know a muslim imam who was a marine biologist, but is now a staunch creationist after converting in Saudi and studying in South Africa. Thinking back to our conversations, the spiritual framework and narrative that Islam provided was pretty much the topic of most of his conversations and dawah. And he had brought in NWO/illuminati conspiracy theories - like I did.

    I apostated a year ago and I rarely get the pangs now though, perhaps because I'm reading more pop science books focused on specific subjects. If you want those pangs to lessen I'd advise you to take Phihellenes advice (But replace; in search of the big bang by John Gribbin, with Big bang by Simon Singh. It's better written IMO, and Phil also praises and recommends the book in later videos.);

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1yl7gz0AO4
  • Re: do you ever wonder if you are wrong?
     Reply #27 - August 13, 2012, 11:34 AM

    philhelleneseeeeehh  001_wub
  • Re: do you ever wonder if you are wrong?
     Reply #28 - August 13, 2012, 02:12 PM

    thanks strangedude, il get round to buying them when i have time. i echo your thoughts when you speak of the strange emotional inclination towards the abrahamic narrative, i have never been a religious person or come from a religious family but there is something about islam for me and i can't put my finger on what it is. I do often feel a lack of direction and meaning in my life as somone without religion and i imagine that is where it stems from, that will have to be somthing i need to sort out if i want to put my mind at rest with islam.

    i made this thread after watching a convert to islam, Myriam Francois-Cerrah give a lecture on women in islam and shes has a PhD from oxford university and to me it is baffling how such a highly educated women can believe in Islam, as you can imagine she follows a very liberal version of islam, the topic of women witnesses came up and she said 'the Quran says IF you fear forgetfullness then two women' i don't know what translation she is following as i can't find that anywhere.

  • Re: do you ever wonder if you are wrong?
     Reply #29 - August 13, 2012, 03:54 PM

    Just a note.  I watched a very good documentary the other day.
    Through the Wormhole ("Did We Invent God?") Season 3, episode 10.

    It's normally a space show.  Time and space... regular nerdy things I like.
    But this one was pretty interesting too.

    It's a really good read on how people perceived God.  Apparently, the Abrahamic God is a like a God we talk to... treat as a person.  Our brain actually thinks it is a real person.  The same centers of the brain are activated when we speak to a person as when a religious person talks to God.

    To a Bhuddist, spirituality is more abstract and the visual part of the brain is activated.

    It's actually built right into us... into our brains... to seek hidden meaning when things appear out of our control.
    Our brains are preprogrammed to seek meaning and find patterns in things.
    Some of the experiments they do is pretty interesting... especially those of young children. 

    I don't think feeling life is out of control is something that educated people are immune from.  Sure it might affect the poor and uneducated more, but smart people are just as likely to feel a sense of disorder and then seek meaning.


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