Racism in Victoria's Secret?

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- Merry_Squirell
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Racism in Victoria's Secret?
OP - November 10, 2012, 06:05 PM

VS annual fashion show took place a few days ago...i've been reading comments and many people find Indian costume worn by model Karlie Kloss as downright offensive to Indian people and culture, basicly turning women into ''western sex toys''.

( Oh the holly irony ; people complain about sexualization of women in a fashion show that is all about selling sex).

Geisha costume also sparked controversy.http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/09/26/sexy-little-geisha-more-victoria-s-secret-controversies.html

What would have happened if let's say, Adriana Lima wore harem pants and veil; would that be offensive to muslim women?

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Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
Reply #1 - November 10, 2012, 06:10 PM

Quote from: Merry_Squirell on November 10, 2012, 06:05 PM
many people find Indian costume worn by model Karlie Kloss as downright offensive to Indian people and culture,

I would think that being mistaken for Indian people and still being referred to as Indian is a tad more offensive.

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Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
Reply #2 - November 10, 2012, 06:21 PM

Not really, a lot of the times at least in the USA Native Americans still refer to themselves as Indians, it just caught on though they do call themselves native Americans or Native Indians too. In Canada though, I know they refer to themselves as the First Nations. They really should standardize it thought because there is a lot of Indian migration to the USA so it leads to confusion.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
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Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
Reply #3 - November 10, 2012, 06:42 PM

I don't like animal prints on clothes, looks tacky.

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Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
Reply #4 - November 10, 2012, 07:22 PM

Isn't the reason why Native Americans are called Indian because when Columbus invaded America he thought he was in India?

Anyway, this is not only a sexism issue but also a race issue. Aren't most fashion designers and models white? Yet they're using others cultural identity as a marketing opportunity. And isn't the rubbish they churn out just based on poor stereotypes and mockery. The Native American feathered war bonnet is not just a prop than anyone can use, it has cultural significance and meaning. Unless we belong to that culture, we have no right to adopt their culturally significant items and make them our own.

More at: http://bitchmagazine.org/post/costume-cultural-appropriation

Source: http://www.brandchannel.com/home/post/2012/09/28/Dolce-Gabbana-Racist-Earrings-092812.aspx
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Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
Reply #5 - November 10, 2012, 07:42 PM

Quote from: deusvult on November 10, 2012, 06:21 PM
They really should standardize it thought because there is a lot of Indian migration to the USA so it leads to confusion.

There could be a good episode from Curb Your Enthusiasm based on this ^^^

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Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
Reply #6 - November 10, 2012, 10:45 PM

Are people really this sensitive? You are not allowed to dress other than 'your' culture now? Bangs head v wall
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Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
Reply #7 - November 10, 2012, 11:00 PM

Gotta admit I was thinking much the same thing. The other thing I was thinking is why would anyone take Victoria's Secret seriously anyway? I hardly ever pay any attention to them.

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Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
Reply #8 - November 11, 2012, 01:11 AM

first time this came up at my house.. it was because of this video by TYT..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_FskEFU8ls

1:10 a black women holding a knife with the caption "we're a culture not a costume"
1:15 a latino women smoking, pregnant, again.. with the caption "we're culture not a costume"
1:40 white men , beer belly, trailer trash looking hilbilly ... "we're a culture not a costume"...

i think this campaign actually defeats its own purpose..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV9vdUjuWxc
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Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
Reply #9 - November 11, 2012, 01:23 AM

Quote from: nessrriinn on November 11, 2012, 01:11 AM
first time this came up at my house.. it was because of this video by TYT..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_FskEFU8ls

1:10 a black women holding a knife with the caption "we're a culture not a costume"
1:15 a latino women smoking, pregnant, again.. with the caption "we're culture not a costume"
1:40 white men , beer belly, trailer trash looking hilbilly ... "we're a culture not a costume"...

i think this campaign actually defeats its own purpose..

I think the point there is that the stigma that is associated with each of those "races" is something that people of those backgrounds have to deal with on a daily basis. I.e. the black woman is saying that if you (or anyone) dress up as some "primitive" animalistic black woman with a knife, you can take the costume off, it's just a game to you, but you have then helped to perpetuate a certain stereotype about black women. And the latino woman is saying a similar thing. That the stereotypes perpetuated by people wearing these costumes are stereotypes that people of particular ethnic backgrounds have to confront on a daily basis.

It would be as if some white guys go dressed up as Arab men, in full abaya, flashing gold teeth, throwing fake money around at their belly dancer costumed girlfriends and underneath the abaya, have a "suicide vest" they keep flashing. Everybody at the party may laugh, but the arab guy (especially if let's say, he is an ex-muslim arab) there may not laugh as he has to deal with being stereotyped like this all the time.

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Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
Reply #10 - November 11, 2012, 01:34 AM

I agree that the campaign is really OTT though. Just saying that its message is valuable but they kinda killed it by over-playing their hand.

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Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
Reply #11 - November 11, 2012, 02:03 AM

Quote
its message is valuable but they kinda killed it by over-playing their hand

agreed!!..
the message is important, and i think the TYT (at least in their vid) didnt take the message seriously because of the campaign being so OTT,.. it really does defeat it's own purpose..

it's not only limited to race.. i'm not sure what has to cross someone's mind to decide something like this, but i've seen "fat" costumes, "gay" costumes.. "slut" costumes.. they all don't sit well with me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV9vdUjuWxc
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Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
Reply #12 - November 11, 2012, 02:12 AM

Quote from: nessrriinn on November 11, 2012, 02:03 AM
agreed!!..
the message is important, and i think the TYT (at least in their vid) didnt take the message seriously because of the campaign being so OTT,.. it really does defeat it's own purpose..

it's not only limited to race.. i'm not sure what has to cross someone's mind to decide something like this, but i've seen "fat" costumes, "gay" costumes.. "slut" costumes.. they all don't sit well with me

However, I am so totally going as the repuglican waaaahmbulance next halloween.

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Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
Reply #13 - November 11, 2012, 04:57 AM

Which will offend Republicans. You're being culturally insensitive and perpetuating stereotypes. Shame on you.

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Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
Reply #14 - November 11, 2012, 05:03 AM

I live to piss off Repugs.

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Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
Reply #15 - November 11, 2012, 05:05 AM

Hey, check your privilege. You were born with a brain. No fair.

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Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
Reply #16 - November 11, 2012, 05:14 AM

Quote from: cognisance on November 10, 2012, 07:22 PM
Unless we belong to that culture, we have no right to adopt their culturally significant items and make them our own.

Ok, on what basis do you assert that? I suspect you're going to end up in a hole if you try to argue that point. Offhand I can't see any ironclad defence for it.

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Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
Reply #17 - November 11, 2012, 09:26 AM

Quote from: allat on November 11, 2012, 01:23 AM
It would be as if some white guys go dressed up as Arab men, in full abaya, flashing gold teeth, throwing fake money around at their belly dancer costumed girlfriends and underneath the abaya, have a "suicide vest" they keep flashing. Everybody at the party may laugh, but the arab guy (especially if let's say, he is an ex-muslim arab) there may not laugh as he has to deal with being stereotyped like this all the time.

As an ex-muslim Arab, I have to say that I don't ever recollect having to "deal" with being stereotyped as such. In fact, I find the "ayrab monneyyy" costume idea quite funny. You might have given me inspiration for next Halloween (now I need to get myself a white girlfriend for just that purpose).

I think that everyone needs to learn from South Park and build a strong sense of humour with an equal-opportunity pisstake ethos, especially in light of people's sensitvity and protection of the ironically divisive 'us and them' tribal notions of cultural identity where some awfully silly and backward traditions are cherished as part of one's 'heritage' as if they have no choice but to identify with it.

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Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
Reply #18 - November 11, 2012, 11:05 AM

I might sound a bit "politically uncorrect", but some people should just chill out. Making fun of cultures or stereotypes is not necessarily racism from the "evil white man who runs the world....blabla".

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Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
Reply #19 - November 11, 2012, 12:15 PM

Yup. Thing is, Victoria's Secret parades are all about "turning women into western sex toys''. I mean does anyone really not think this is and has always been the case? It's a bit daft to suddenly act as if you'd never noticed before.

Why worry about Indian war bonnets? Yes, the VS costume a cheap imitation of the real thing and she looks kinda stupid in it. However, it's her choice and she's getting paid heaps to look stupid. Does it really detract from Amerindian culture if some white chick wants to make herself look silly?

What about the traditional VS angel costumes? If you're going to freak about adoption of other people's culture, what about all the people who think angels are something pure and holy that have nothing to do with chicks in g-strings and heels? Is it ok to offend them? Sure, they're religious so go for it. Right? Any double standards here?

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Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
Reply #20 - November 11, 2012, 12:23 PM

Quote from: Lilyesque on November 10, 2012, 10:45 PM
Are people really this sensitive? You are not allowed to dress other than 'your' culture now? Bangs head v wall

Bang bang bang smash bang wallop.

I don't think my beloved is terribly offended by people dressing up in Geisha costumes. She just thinks gaijin girls are a bit hefty, but have annoyingly long legs.

In Nicaragua, 'Indians' are Miskito people and 'Spaniards' are Hispanics. Cue riots on the streets of Delhi and Madrid.

As Al Ma'arri said, we really do need to relax a bit... and remember that the whole 'offence' industry is a construction of Western cultural imperialism. (Joking, kinda.)
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Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
Reply #21 - November 11, 2012, 12:52 PM

Speaking of evil done by ''white man'''..

I had discussion with one muslim guy who is of course white (he is from Sandjak, Serbia).

I was taken aback when he stated: those 'white-skinned'' have killed more people than muslims...

If I asked him; do you feel anger over invasion on Balkan done by ''dark-skinned'' Turks who were taking your ancestors as slaves ( i gues that woud count as racism...)

The fact that a white skinned muslim talks with such contempt about other ''whites'' just shows the level of allegiance to the middle-eastern world and culture where islam appeared.

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Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
Reply #22 - November 11, 2012, 12:59 PM

Quote from: cognisance on November 10, 2012, 07:22 PM
Isn't the reason why Native Americans are called Indian because when Columbus invaded America he thought he was in India?

Anyway, this is not only a sexism issue but also a race issue. Aren't most fashion designers and models white? Yet they're using others cultural identity as a marketing opportunity. And isn't the rubbish they churn out just based on poor stereotypes and mockery. The Native American feathered war bonnet is not just a prop than anyone can use, it has cultural significance and meaning. Unless we belong to that culture, we have no right to adopt their culturally significant items and make them our own.

(Clicky for piccy!)(Clicky for piccy!)

More at: http://bitchmagazine.org/post/costume-cultural-appropriation

(Clicky for piccy!)

Source: http://www.brandchannel.com/home/post/2012/09/28/Dolce-Gabbana-Racist-Earrings-092812.aspx

I have a pair of earrings like that girl ..does it imply that i support western colonization and black slavery?

Tell me please, does this racial stereotyping work in other way : a japanese woman wants to dress like a french maid...Is that japanese woman guilty of sexually stereotyping French women?

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Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
Reply #23 - November 11, 2012, 01:09 PM

Quote from: Merry_Squirell on November 11, 2012, 12:59 PM
a japanese woman wants to dress like a french maid...Is that japanese woman guilty of sexually stereotyping French women?

Nah, it's called Cosplay, which is even worse.
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Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
Reply #24 - November 11, 2012, 03:33 PM

Quote from: cognisance on November 10, 2012, 07:22 PM
The Native American feathered war bonnet is not just a prop than anyone can use, it has cultural significance and meaning. Unless we belong to that culture, we have no right to adopt their culturally significant items and make them our own.

Yeah, good one. In fact why don't we just ban Halloween. Those kids have no right to pretend to be something they are not!
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Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
Reply #25 - November 11, 2012, 06:13 PM

Some years ago, I went to a Halloween party dressed in an orange boiler suit with a hessian sack and goggles over my head, Gitmo-style.

There was at least one person who got offended on my behalf. Which was nice.

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Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
Reply #26 - November 11, 2012, 06:20 PM

What was Anjem Choudary doing at that Halloween party, toor!?

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Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
Reply #27 - November 11, 2012, 07:05 PM

Funny thing was, I was the only brown chap there, never mind the only chap of Muslim heritage..

That said, even Anjem Choudary needs some downtime. Perhaps he'd be happier if he did go to the odd party and drank the odd beer. Or the odd hotel room, with a pile of coke and a few hookers. Who knows?

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Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
Reply #28 - November 11, 2012, 07:40 PM

Quote from: David on November 11, 2012, 01:09 PM
Nah, it's called Cosplay, which is even worse.

Hey some cosplay rocks. Thanks for reminding me of Yaya Han.

Getting back to the geisha costume, how about Fetish Geisha?

Quote
Why I chose to make this costume:

When I was asked to perform at the Chamber for New Year's Eve and found out that the theme was Asian, I just had to come up with a new costume.

This is in a similar vein to the VS geisha outfit mentioned earlier. Are we supposed to take offense over it?

Yaya Han is Chinese, not Japanese. Does this make a difference to the amount of offense we are supposed to take, or is it ok because "they all look the same"?

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Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
Reply #29 - November 11, 2012, 08:00 PM

Ohayo! Long time no see.

Quote from: osmanthus on November 11, 2012, 05:14 AM
Ok, on what basis do you assert that? I suspect you're going to end up in a hole if you try to argue that point. Offhand I can't see any ironclad defence for it.

That's easy. It's called 'muh feelingz'.

Btw why is your avatar a Wookie? That's cultural appropriation you know. Also I bet you stand up while urinating you sexist pig.

Quote from: allat on November 11, 2012, 02:12 AM
However, I am so totally going as the repuglican waaaahmbulance next halloween.

That's horrible. What if a republican gets offended by your display?

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