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Theme Changer

 Topic: Blabbering about Israel global relations vs Islamic global relations

 (Read 1692 times)
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  • Blabbering about Israel global relations vs Islamic global relations
     OP - December 06, 2012, 12:36 AM



    Now that I have that out of the way.

    So I'm very fascinated by the whole Israel conflict shit-storm going on. I feel like it's history in the making. And I keep hearing from one side on the Palestinians side that Israel is practically the devil, because of all these inhumane things they do. Which I do not dispute, but I wanted to see how global governments view Israel.

    Some things I was not expecting.
    1. I was surprised to find out that Israel has more allies/ less countries calling for their destruction than preached. I keep hearing about the whole Israel America buddy buddy relationship every time there is an anti-Israel sentiment. But I was thinking, hang on everyone is acting like America is the ONLY friend of Israel. America does bend of backwards and lets Israel get away with many things, which is unfair I acknowledge. But putting America aside there are many other countries with diplomatic ties, trading ties, and even financial ties. I was not expecting that.

    2. I was shocked to find out, 85%- 90% of the countries that has cut ties with Israel are Muslim countries. A little one sided, I was expecting more non-Arab countries to have cut ties with Israel in protest and solidarity with Palestine and claims that Israel is a big terrorist. I've realized while perhaps many countries may not be particular fond of Israel, they still have/want to keep open diplomatic ties with Israel.

    3. I didn't know in some countries like Bangladesh you are forbidden from traveling to Israel on your passport. I'm confused to why and how that even works.

    4. I was shocked to find out Iran use to have diplomatic ties with Israel in the past before the revolution.

    5. Newly founded South Sudan is forming ties with Israel.
    ---

    Now talking about Palestine, I'm very confused on global opinion. Yes while many people do what a Palestinian state, and while they have support from every Arab nation, it seems that Israel is already established itself in the global community. Where as Palestine has a long way to go in regards to picking up allies outside of the Arab league. Although they seem to be well on their way. Although I haven't been able to find many other nations with a favorably view of Hamas outside of the Arab League.

    I guess a couple things I'm thinking are.

    - Are Arab countries making a mistake by distancing themselves from the larger more influential nations?  Israel seems to be reaping the benefits of being allies with the US and European countries. While the Arab nations are keen on distancing themselves. Where else can they rack up support from a strong country?

    - Is it possible to support Palestine without being aggressively anti-Israel. Like I've noticed, many nations support Palestine but are not necessarily cutting ties Israel. They just want Palestine to have their own state alongside Israel. Unlike many Arab countries who have affirmed in order to support Palestine one must call for the destruction of Israel.

    - Is it possible and what would it take for more Islamic countries to rebuild peaceful ties with Israel. Or will there always be a deep disconnect with Israel even if Palestine is granted statehood, so long as Israel exists.

    - Does America have such an influence that maybe other countries just don't want to go against them. Or is this an over-played excuse to dismiss lack of support from the global community.  

    - What are Islamic countries relationship with countries like China and Japan, that are large atheist countries? I figure since they obviously hate America, then their next big possible supporter could be China... yes no?
      
    - If Israel is ever taken to court for war crimes, what do you think the outcome be? And will Israel be able to argue that they themselves were victims of war crimes by Hamas and Hezbollah. With all the violence going on with regimes, with the Middle East and accusations of the suppression and ethnic cleansing of minorities, will the pressure and priority of bringing Israel to court for war crimes even going to be taken seriously outside of the Arab nations and a select few non-Muslim countries.  

    - As an ex-Muslim has your opinions on this conflict changed even a little? Not necessarily switching sides but becoming more aware of things you might not have bothered to acknowledge as a Muslim.

    Questions questions questions, opinions? No need to answer all.

    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Re: Blabbering about Israel global relations vs Islamic global relations
     Reply #1 - December 06, 2012, 04:00 AM

    Quote
    Is it possible to support Palestine without being aggressively anti-Israel.


    If I may, I want to answer using an example. I figured this out when I was 19 and losing my religion for good. I believe it's easier to think when you're not clouded with god's wrath in your mind. Here goes:

    I live in a country where the natives were violently and brutally removed from their land. Only recently, with liberal movements, are they being "compensated" (mainly by acknowledgement, but through other ways too).

    A certain conservative government had tried to "white wash" school-book history and lessen the emphasis on the crimes committed by the settlers (that would have influenced the knowledge of an entire school generation). After that government lost office, the new (more liberal) government had "national apologies".

    Anyway, during the same time that this was happening on a national level, I started noticing that my lecturers at uni would begin the lecture with a disclaimer of "acknowledging country" (an Aboriginal acknowledgement).

    During my indigenous studies classes, I found that many indigenous activists want acknowledgement and want past crimes against them to be a non disputed part of this culture. (Then there are those more extreme activists who want people to simply pack up and leave; not gonna happen).

    So that's the example, and isn't the resemblance to the Israel-Palestine conflict uncanny?

    My personal conclusion is that we can't expect people to pack their shit and leave. It doesn't work that way. To be "aggressively anti Israel" (or anti white in my example) would suggest some emotional/religious issues, I think. To be aggressively anti war, anti settlement, anti suicide bomber (more specific) seems reasonable, instead of sweeping generalisations like "Ayrabs vs Jews" and other rhetorical rubbish.

    The first step is to acknowledge that the natives were/are treated like shit, as an official policy and culture. Only then can healing start. If discrimination and oppression and siege is official policy, then we can kiss peace goodbye.

    Quote
    As an ex-Muslim has your opinions on this conflict changed even a little? Not necessarily switching sides but becoming more aware of things you might not have bothered to acknowledge as a Muslim.


    I've never really taken sides, but now I don't believe that the Palestinian struggle has anything to do with Islam. Eg. I oppose the destruction of that golden dome because it is a hostile act. If the Israelis rebuild their temple, and that's the way the world swings for the next hundred years, I would oppose the possible future destruction of the temple because it's a hostile act.

    *shrug*

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Blabbering about Israel global relations vs Islamic global relations
     Reply #2 - December 07, 2012, 07:23 PM

    Jila you are speaking here about natives. Why people ignore the fact that Jews were always present in that area, during crusades...and for example town of Safed was a center of medieval jewish misticism. Why do people think that Palestine was inhabited only by Arabs and Jews suddenly appeared on 14th of May 1948? Funny how nobody complains about centuries of Ottoman rule. whistling2 yes

    If we keep repeating that Arabs are natives and Jews are non-natives, honestly I don't see how that serves as a foundation for mutual respect and understanding.

    And btw, thousands of Jews were exiled from Arab countries, I don't see a special UN agency that deals with the appeal of these people nor countless UN resolutions that support them. whistling2

    Isn't it funny how cats can understand people without ever reading a single psychology book?
  • Blabbering about Israel global relations vs Islamic global relations
     Reply #3 - December 07, 2012, 07:41 PM

    ......................

    I've never really taken sides, but now I don't believe that the Palestinian struggle has anything to do with Islam.   Eg. I oppose the destruction of that golden dome because it is a hostile act.   If the Israelis rebuild their temple, and that's the way the world swings for the next hundred years, I would oppose the possible future destruction of the temple because it's a hostile act.


    It is not what you believe and what I believe that matters Jila., Let me  put that question slightly differently..

    Do you believe   that "Palestinian Muslim leadership, Islamic preachers in and around Israel  and  Leaders of Islamic world around Israel and other part of the world"..    Do they  consider that  ISLAM IS/WAS NOTHING TO DO WITH Palestine Struggle since the birth of Israel?

     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Blabbering about Israel global relations vs Islamic global relations
     Reply #4 - December 07, 2012, 07:55 PM

    ... btw, thousands of Jews were exiled from Arab countries, I don't see a special UN agency that deals with the appeal of these people nor countless UN resolutions that support them. whistling2

    well I think UN should consider that case..   here is the list of Jewish folks that moved out of Middle East .

      Not only that list.,  I think UN should seriously  consider  going  back to all the way to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) times  and to that time where  Qurayzah  Jewish tribe  living in & around Madina and redistribute the present lands and resources accordingly.  That will real justice too Palestinians ...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Blabbering about Israel global relations vs Islamic global relations
     Reply #5 - December 07, 2012, 10:15 PM


    Quote
    Jews suddenly appeared on 14th of May 1948

     *facepalm*

    @Merry Does the word palestinian or native only mean Muslim to you?

    @Yeez, I mean I personally used to believe it was a Muslim thing. Like "oh, god will help them coz they're Muslim, and that's a mosque so it *deserves* to be there". The old Islamic mindset about Muslims deserving it all. Now it's more about principle.

    On a side note, it feels so funny being seen as anti Israel when in my normal life, people think I'm too pro Israel to the point where they're bothered by it Cheesy

    *backs away slowly*

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

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