How to stop caring about honor?

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How to stop caring about honor?
OP - December 14, 2012, 02:54 AM

Growing up, I've always knew destroying the family honor in any way would be the most horrible thing. My parents care SO MUCH what others think about them, particularly my father because he is a Sheik and his family is 'expected' to be the very best for the community. My brother and I always tried to be our very best because we wanted others, specifically Muslim families, to look up to our family and envy us because we were always told that it was important than anything else.
We all acted like extreme Muslim fundamentalists; my father tried his best to make my brother a leader in terms of education and mental/physical strength but for me, my appearance was more important than my brain or my strength. I was of course expected to be strong in Islamic Studies but that was it. In the eyes of my father, education is not necessary for women, they should try to become better wives or women in society. In other words, they should always play the female role in Islam which is the mute, clueless woman who is always submissive and never thinks for herself. Therefore, I was expected to wear very modestly, never to speak or think differently, learn 'women' responsibilities, etc. My mother and I are basically the same; we both wear hijabs and abaayas, we take care of the males in the family and also, we don't speak at all. My father wants me to be the very best for my future husband.
Ever since I was a child, I was more stronger in education than compared to my brother but he is expected to surpass me. He is trying to get into Medical School and I'm also trying to get into Medical School or Law School (my father is against that idea 100%). My father believes that I'm wasting my time to be honest but I never cared about my role. I always said that I never cared about honor but I know I do. I care so much what others think about me and I believe it stemmed from my parents teachings.
I don't want people to look down on me nor disrespect me in anyway. The main reason why I want to get into Medical and Law School is because of honor. I want people to consider me to be intelligent because people do judge individuals based on their work or what they studied. I do like Law, science and especially helping individuals but the honor that comes with such professions is a major bonus for me. People would look up to me if I told them that I'm a doctor, not an artist or a janitor. If I truly picked my path without caring about honor, I would basically live for art. Another issue for me is leaving family. If I left my abusive family, it would show that I left Islam also. The Muslims that I always respected would look down on me and it hurts. That is one of the reasons why I'm still living with my parents and acting like a Muslim fundamentalist; I'm afraid to lose certain people in my life who I deeply respect. I'm scared of losing a part of my culture/identity but most importantly, I don't want to look like a bad or a rebellious girl. I just want to be me. How can I stop caring about honor?
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Reply #1 - December 14, 2012, 03:07 AM

I don't know, because I've never had to deal with that cultural problem, but I can tell you that living for other people is not a recipe for happiness. Sooner or later, you probably are going to have to disappoint and/or shock some of the people you respect. If they respect you too, they'll deal with it. If they don't respect you enough to deal with it, fuck 'em.

(Often, even if they are shocked to start with, people will slowly come around if left to their own devices)

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Reply #2 - December 14, 2012, 03:34 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on December 14, 2012, 03:07 AM
I don't know, because I've never had to deal with that cultural problem, but I can tell you that living for other people is not a recipe for happiness. Sooner or later, you probably are going to have to disappoint and/or shock some of the people you respect. If they respect you too, they'll deal with it. If they don't respect you enough to deal with it, fuck 'em.

(Often, even if they are shocked to start with, people will slowly come around if left to their own devices)

I have this terrible habit of bending over backwards for people. I've been doing it for all my life and I'm honestly tired, it's definitely not making me happy. I always want to be a people pleaser because I truly know that the people that I'm constantly around would definitely consider me toxic or sick if they knew the true me. The majority of my friends are Muslims because I am in the center of the community; I'm surrounded by Arabs predominately and they are basically the same (at least act the same) because we have the same culture. They express the same views, they have similar interests, etc. I in the other hand think the opposite as them. I'm a complete outcast but I try to be like them. I honestly want to be around people who would except me for who I am because it's healthy, at least for me. They don't have to be an Atheist or share the same beliefs as me, they just got to know how to respect others. I don't know how to find such people... It's the reason why I feel lonely most of the time.
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Reply #3 - December 14, 2012, 03:47 AM

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I don't know how to find such people.

Actually, there are an awful lot of people like that in the world. I'm chatting to one at the moment (she's a devout Christian but a good friend regardless). There shouldn't be any problem in finding people like that once you get out and start looking for them. All you have to do is figure out how to remove the straitjacket.

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Reply #4 - December 14, 2012, 04:26 AM

it's not that you stop caring about something called honour.. you redefine it, ... , you claim it as your own.. you realize that noone can take it away from you nor can they give it to you and vica versa.. because the definition of honour we are brought up to believe is twisted and wrong
honour is part of your character i think.. is how you act when noone is looking, not the community , not family, not anyone.. tell me, how honourable is beating a child?

you are honourable Mia.. that can't be touched no matter what

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV9vdUjuWxc
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Reply #5 - December 14, 2012, 04:33 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on December 14, 2012, 03:47 AM
Actually, there are an awful lot of people like that in the world. I'm chatting to one at the moment (she's a devout Christian but a good friend regardless). There shouldn't be any problem in finding people like that once you get out and start looking for them. All you have to do is figure out how to remove the straitjacket.

Good point!
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Reply #6 - December 14, 2012, 05:23 AM

Quote from: nessrriinn on December 14, 2012, 04:26 AM
it's not that you stop caring about something called honour.. you redefine it, ... , you claim it as your own.. you realize that noone can take it away from you nor can they give it to you and vica versa.. because the definition of honour we are brought up to believe is twisted and wrong
honour is part of your character i think.. is how you act when noone is looking, not the community , not family, not anyone.. tell me, how honourable is beating a child?

you are honourable Mia.. that can't be touched no matter what

I feel completely sucked into the Muslim mindset. I considered the whole Islamic 'honor' idea to be unfair because I could never gain such a thing if I acted true to others but I never looked at it like that to be honest. It is twisted and I'm not sure why I still feel that I should gain it. for your point! By the way, it's nice meeting you.
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Reply #7 - December 16, 2012, 03:53 AM

Weird, it is the opposite for me. I am so attracted to the idea of honor or ghairat as we say in Pashtunwali. I suppose it's just a boys romance haha.

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Reply #8 - December 16, 2012, 11:39 AM

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If I truly picked my path without caring about honor, I would basically live for art. Another issue for me is leaving family. If I left my abusive family,

I am sorry, if there is abuse, surely honour is dead? It is emotional blackmail.

I think there are several big issues you are facing that need entangling, in some ways more complex than the scene in a film where a nuclear submarine captain whilst deep underwater has a fire in the kitchen and then receives the orders to go to nuclear war!

You are getting a message do not use your brains because of your brother. I am sorry, if you are best, use and develop your talents.

I am uncIear if art is really your hearts desire or an escape clause to avoid confrontation with your father.

If there is abuse we are talking criminal acts.

Stop being silent! Ask gentle questions?

Are there not people at your uni you can talk to? Do you know of the AHA foundation?

Are you blaming yourself for possibly ending something that others have already ended?

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Reply #9 - December 21, 2012, 04:35 PM

Get rid of all the religous fundamentalists and other douchebags in your life.

Do the things you like to do, go to school, be yourself and people will automatically be attracted to you for your personality. And they are the one's who are going to respect you and support you through the tough times in your life.

In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
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Reply #10 - December 30, 2012, 12:06 AM

Quote from: moi on December 16, 2012, 11:39 AM
I am sorry, if there is abuse, surely honour is dead? It is emotional blackmail.

I think there are several big issues you are facing that need entangling, in some ways more complex than the scene in a film where a nuclear submarine captain whilst deep underwater has a fire in the kitchen and then receives the orders to go to nuclear war!

You are getting a message do not use your brains because of your brother. I am sorry, if you are best, use and develop your talents.

I am uncIear if art is really your hearts desire or an escape clause to avoid confrontation with your father.

If there is abuse we are talking criminal acts.

Stop being silent! Ask gentle questions?

Are there not people at your uni you can talk to? Do you know of the AHA foundation?

Are you blaming yourself for possibly ending something that others have already ended?

Quote from: TheDarkRebel on December 21, 2012, 04:35 PM
Get rid of all the religous fundamentalists and other douchebags in your life.

Do the things you like to do, go to school, be yourself and people will automatically be attracted to you for your personality. And they are the one's who are going to respect you and support you through the tough times in your life.

There are therapists and councilors at my University that I’m visiting despite how they have troubles understanding my issue with my family and community. Hopefully when I leave my household, I can be more free in terms of expressing myself instead of wearing this fake Islamic mask to please others, particularly my father. Hopefully, I can act like myself because I think that is the only way how I can feel much better and less alone or less fake. Thanks for good advice!
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Reply #11 - December 31, 2012, 08:05 AM

As a person who also often bent over backwards for people I can tell you it's not worth it. You're only going to get used.

Stop thinking for other people and just think for yourself. Unfortunately I had to go through 2.5 years of depression to the point where I was planning my suicide before I finally let go of everyone.

Obviously you can't be entirely separate from your family so you do need to maintain ties with them, but for the most part the best thing to do is just think for yourself and find people who won't constantly remind you of the honor you're supposed to have. Part of that feeling of having to have honor is probably just the people you are around pressuring you. Get to know some people at university who you can relax around. Try to remove people from your life who aren't helping, even if you think you want them to. I'm sure there are many people on the forum you can talk to if you need to just get away from your life. Just hold out until you can get some independence and then things should get better.
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Reply #12 - December 31, 2012, 08:13 PM

Quote from: Mia on December 30, 2012, 12:06 AM
There are therapists and councilors at my University that I’m visiting despite how they have troubles understanding my issue with my family and community. Hopefully when I leave my household, I can be more free in terms of expressing myself instead of wearing this fake Islamic mask to please others, particularly my father. Hopefully, I can act like myself because I think that is the only way how I can feel much better and less alone or less fake. Thanks for good advice!

I think all universities and schools should have at least one counsellor that understands issues that kids from religous fundamentalist families have.

In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
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Reply #13 - January 01, 2013, 01:09 AM

Quote from: sethyboy0 on December 31, 2012, 08:05 AM
As a person who also often bent over backwards for people I can tell you it's not worth it. You're only going to get used.

Stop thinking for other people and just think for yourself. Unfortunately I had to go through 2.5 years of depression to the point where I was planning my suicide before I finally let go of everyone.

Obviously you can't be entirely separate from your family so you do need to maintain ties with them, but for the most part the best thing to do is just think for yourself and find people who won't constantly remind you of the honor you're supposed to have. Part of that feeling of having to have honor is probably just the people you are around pressuring you. Get to know some people at university who you can relax around. Try to remove people from your life who aren't helping, even if you think you want them to. I'm sure there are many people on the forum you can talk to if you need to just get away from your life. Just hold out until you can get some independence and then things should get better.

Thanks for the good advice . After High School, I basically cut a lot of ties because the people I have always been around with were Muslim fundamentalists (like my parents). I was always an atheist however, I acted like a Muslim fundamentalist for my entire life. I'm terrified of acting 'real' or myself. I'm mostly alone in University which doesn't help my depression but I'm trying my best to find people to hang out with and who can accept me.
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Reply #14 - January 01, 2013, 01:28 AM

Quote from: TheDarkRebel on December 31, 2012, 08:13 PM
I think all universities and schools should have at least one counsellor that understands issues that kids from religous fundamentalist families have.

I assumed the same. I spoke to a lot of counsellors and psychologists/psychiatrists about my issues and all of them don't seem to get it. They do think that my parents, particularly my father, are crazy fundamentalists but they don't see no harm, just mentally. I was hoping to find someone who would understand a bit of Islam because my issue is mainly connected to religion. But oh well, they are definitely better than nothing
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Reply #15 - January 01, 2013, 01:30 AM

Quote from: Mia on January 01, 2013, 01:09 AM
Thanks for the good advice . After High School, I basically cut a lot of ties because the people I have always been around with were Muslim fundamentalists (like my parents). I was always an atheist however, I acted like a Muslim fundamentalist for my entire life. I'm terrified of acting 'real' or myself. I'm mostly alone in University which doesn't help my depression but I'm trying my best to find people to hang out with and who can accept me.

I wish I could give you advice on how to meet people but I'm not exactly doing a good job of that myself. I tried joining a lot of clubs and stuff but my depression came back for a bit and my first semester really bit me in the ass before I had the chance to really meet anyone.

Then again, I pretty much just act like a cave troll and sit on my computer all day, whereas you would probably go out and do stuff more so you should be okay.

It sucks that you're depressed too though, because it's not easy for you to remove everyone who makes you feel bad. I was able to delete pretty much everyone on my MSN list (none of them cared enough to notice anyway), but I didn't have to deal with crap from my parents.

If you ever need to talk feel free to send a message . There's also probably a few other people on here who would be just as willing to talk and can probably relate to your situation better.
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Reply #16 - January 01, 2013, 01:56 AM

Quote from: sethyboy0 on January 01, 2013, 01:30 AM
I wish I could give you advice on how to meet people but I'm not exactly doing a good job of that myself. I tried joining a lot of clubs and stuff but my depression came back for a bit and my first semester really bit me in the ass before I had the chance to really meet anyone.

Then again, I pretty much just act like a cave troll and sit on my computer all day, whereas you would probably go out and do stuff more so you should be okay.

It sucks that you're depressed too though, because it's not easy for you to remove everyone who makes you feel bad. I was able to delete pretty much everyone on my MSN list (none of them cared enough to notice anyway), but I didn't have to deal with crap from my parents.

If you ever need to talk feel free to send a message . There's also probably a few other people on here who would be just as willing to talk and can probably relate to your situation better.

I'm sort of the same. I try my best to get out and actually attend the clubs that I joined but I never lol. I typically end up volunteering most of the time but I guess it's better than nothing. I help out in mental hospitals and a suicide & crisis hotline which seems to be a complete oxymoron for myself because I'm suffering with depression and most of the teens/young adults that I speak to basically have the same suicidal/depression problems that I have but I keep all of my problems to myself instead. The places that I work at either makes me extremely depressed or happy because I can strongly relate. I'm thinking of volunteering at a science lab in my University instead lol By the way, you're right. I'm glad that I found this forum, they are a lot of great people who can understand my issues more than compared to the therapists at my school which is something that I desperately need at this point
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Reply #17 - January 01, 2013, 03:05 AM

Volunteering at a science lab is much better than what you're doing now. You need to get away from the things that make you feel bad, even if you think you're helping other people. You can't help people if you aren't around to help them right?

Besides, I doubt you'd even do much helping at a suicide hotline. I've called one of those three times and they didn't end up helping me much (I don't tell them enough information because I'm too stupid/crazy and they just say the same stuff every time). At a science lab you would be helping more or less the same people and they would probably appreciate it. It could also give you experience you might need, a contact for later, or maybe even a new direction for your life.

I can understand wanting to work with mental people; I've always wanted to make sure that nobody ends up sad like I did. At the same time, as a person with mental illness myself (other than depression) people seem to imply that I'm more understanding than most people (probably because as a mental person I know that what sounds dumb or silly can be a real problem). I think it's still better to just meet interesting and understanding people through something like that science lab rather than a mental hospital where you're just another volunteer and they've already gone off the deep end.
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Reply #18 - January 02, 2013, 05:30 AM

Quote from: sethyboy0 on January 01, 2013, 03:05 AM
Volunteering at a science lab is much better than what you're doing now. You need to get away from the things that make you feel bad, even if you think you're helping other people. You can't help people if you aren't around to help them right?

Besides, I doubt you'd even do much helping at a suicide hotline. I've called one of those three times and they didn't end up helping me much (I don't tell them enough information because I'm too stupid/crazy and they just say the same stuff every time). At a science lab you would be helping more or less the same people and they would probably appreciate it. It could also give you experience you might need, a contact for later, or maybe even a new direction for your life.

I can understand wanting to work with mental people; I've always wanted to make sure that nobody ends up sad like I did. At the same time, as a person with mental illness myself (other than depression) people seem to imply that I'm more understanding than most people (probably because as a mental person I know that what sounds dumb or silly can be a real problem). I think it's still better to just meet interesting and understanding people through something like that science lab rather than a mental hospital where you're just another volunteer and they've already gone off the deep end.

That's true. I don't really like how volunteering at a mental hospital makes me feel in the end because I am basically a two-faced liar. I feel like I should be the last person working in those environments because I'm facing the same issues as them, I really can't give them advice lol. I give advice and encouragement to the teens that I work with who suffer with Anxiety, Depression, PTSD, etc. I tell them the cons of suicide (they are all suicidal or depressed) or how they should get out and meet people when they don't have friends or just work hard on their goals. Basically I'm in their position but I give encouraging advice to those who are suffer the same issues that I'm currently suffering with but instead, I'm not taking any of my advice. It's a bit weird so I should definitely stop volunteering there lol.
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Reply #19 - January 02, 2013, 05:35 AM

Maybe part of it was you were hoping you could make someone else feel better and that would make you feel better? I think I kinda tried to do that once, it didn't work out.

Wish I knew what to tell you but you're pretty much approaching the same point I'm at. If you haven't spoken to a doctor about possible medication then it's worth a shot (since you don't have to go through your parents). Just remember that sometimes it takes a few different meds before it works (I'm not entirely sure if mine are working to be honest and I'm on my third). Just try to keep going
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Reply #20 - January 02, 2013, 05:57 AM

Quote from: sethyboy0 on January 02, 2013, 05:35 AM
Maybe part of it was you were hoping you could make someone else feel better and that would make you feel better? I think I kinda tried to do that once, it didn't work out.

Wish I knew what to tell you but you're pretty much approaching the same point I'm at. If you haven't spoken to a doctor about possible medication then it's worth a shot (since you don't have to go through your parents). Just remember that sometimes it takes a few different meds before it works (I'm not entirely sure if mine are working to be honest and I'm on my third). Just try to keep going

I once experimented with different meds for sleep but the psychiatrists that I spoke to believed that all of my issues and disorders are rooted from trauma. It's really a choice for me to continue medications however, most requested me to try therapy because that is the best way for me to go. I'm a bit skeptical but I can definitely admit that talking about my issues to others can make me feel a lot better instead of keeping it in. Thanks for listening and also for the great advice by the way, I do feel much better right now. At least for now lol but I can definitely sleep tonight which is a good thing
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Reply #21 - January 02, 2013, 06:02 AM

You're welcome. Glad I can help at least a little bit

If you ever need to talk, just send me a PM. I know depression makes you get sad about the dumbest things sometimes, it's okay

Just try different things out and see what works for you. Depression is completely psychological, so there are about 6.314 billion different ways to treat it (my stupid friend used homeopathic medicine and said it worked lol).
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Reply #22 - January 02, 2013, 06:14 AM

Quote from: sethyboy0 on January 02, 2013, 06:02 AM
You're welcome. Glad I can help at least a little bit

If you ever need to talk, just send me a PM. I know depression makes you get sad about the dumbest things sometimes, it's okay

Just try different things out and see what works for you. Depression is completely psychological, so there are about 6.314 billion different ways to treat it (my stupid friend used homeopathic medicine and said it worked lol).

Thanks!
Btw, I don't even trust homeopathic medicine for colds lol! They are basically sugar pills
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Reply #23 - January 02, 2013, 10:57 AM

Quote from: sethyboy0
Depression is completely psychological

Not true. There are physiological problems and certain types of medication that can exacerbate, if not trigger, depression or the symptoms associated with it.
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Reply #24 - January 03, 2013, 05:45 AM

Quote from: Mia on January 02, 2013, 06:14 AM
Thanks!
Btw, I don't even trust homeopathic medicine for colds lol! They are basically sugar pills

Exactly. Homeopathic medicine is just sugar pills/water and is no more effective than placebo. Its proposed methods of working also disagree with the current models of physics and chemistry.

Quote from: Sir Wankalot on January 02, 2013, 10:57 AM
Not true. There are physiological problems and certain types of medication that can exacerbate, if not trigger, depression or the symptoms associated with it.

What I meant by that is that it has to do with chemicals in the brain. Since the brain is very complicated, things that work for one person may not work for another, purely because how different everyone's brains and thoughts are. One time I was even taking a medication that made my depression worse. It was supposed to be a better ADHD medication than my current one, and it took me a while to realize I was getting the rare side effect that made me feel more like poopy.

Depression's symptoms are also harder to observe than a lot of other things, since there's no certain way to just look at yourself in a mirror or take your temperature and say "holy tits I'm not depressed!" Even the physical symptoms it does have are things like change in sleeping and change in hunger, which can have like 6396 other factors.
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