Hallo, need to discuss some of my doubt

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- yeezevee
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Hallo, need to discuss some of my doubt
Reply #30 - December 19, 2012, 12:13 PM

Quote from: Ibrahim on December 17, 2012, 02:26 PM
Let say you and your large family trying to get a political asylum from Islamic countries. Say after 2 years you arrived in, say Canada, you heard a rumour that someone spend countless of hours helping your family behind the scene to get through. Even if your sibling abuse the rumour by deceit, it is unfair for you to call the supposedly person discourteously, regardless whether the rumour is false. Likewise, the contention here is gender, if the entity in gender neutral it is norm to use he or it, while she always connote it is feminine and have its opposite gender. Well you could say what stopping me from believing there are indeed male and female god and goddess, in the end it is what we believe like I initially said.

I believe the transcendent being is at least conscious if not actively participating in human history. And we have free limited choices based on our predecessor did and what we acquire through our lives. One of those choices is how do we relate to him when are brought to know of these religion which supposedly came from Him. We make our choice and He register it.
All of this bullshit if He doesn't exist, I am perfectly aware of that

hello Ibrahim., All that highlighted story of your's is very little to do with what we discuss and that is "origin of religion and their theology". I am not sure what you said answers the simple question that i am trying to understand from believers irrespective of their beliefs. The question was

what do you think are the attribute of god.. what are the characteristics of your "He god" Ibrahim? .

any ways please continue., I am sure in time you will clear my doubts..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #31 - December 19, 2012, 12:19 PM

Quote from: Ibrahim on December 19, 2012, 11:17 AM
....Women are biological different from men, this is a fact. Read Brezendine books (which are published for lay people).

that fact "woman are biologically different from man " is known to every species. do you think people reading this forum don't know that ? Any ways well i was the under the impression not just human being but " every species in this biological world knows that there is a difference between female and male species.
Quote
There are various interpretation of the story, for any story. Some people could have interpreted the creation of eve from rib signify women are companions to men and they are made different in nature.

And whatever story that may be in those religions books written by some cave men., Well many people interpret some silly stories written 100os of years back in many ways . But what is that has to do with that book being revealed by Allah/god..whatever ? and and on top of it enforcing such views on rest of the population through organized mafias and organized religious/political organizations?

Quote from: Ibrahim on December 19, 2012, 11:33 AM
...........................
And I found the atheist argument against the existent of God is more of indifferent towards the huge inexplicable phenomena and events for this universe.

It is very unconvincing for me and many other people even those who do not subscribe to a particular organised religion to disown the possibility of existence for some transcendsnt being alltogether.

I guess it will never definitely seal the question for the foreseen future. As long as there is some possibility for a creator or designer for this world, despite how minuscule they are, I convicted that religion is His way to communicate with us.

The Quran seems to held many Aristotelian and neo-plato naturalistic worldview, contradictory and incoherent. But its critics is way off in interpreting what it wants to convey, sorts of literalism and disregarding many of its main theme and message.

Ibrahim is putting lot of it on the table. I wish I could eat a part of it and digest it.

So did you read Quran? i wonder about it's main theme that you seem to have grasped but many missed it.

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Hallo, need to discuss some of my doubt
Reply #32 - December 19, 2012, 12:27 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on December 19, 2012, 12:13 PM
hello Ibrahim., All that highlighted story of your's is very little to do with what we discuss and that is "origin of religion and their theology". I am not sure what you said answers the simple question that i am trying to understand from believers irrespective of their beliefs. The question was

what do you think are the attribute of god.. what are the characteristics of your "He god" Ibrahim? .

any ways please continue., I am sure in time you will clear my doubts..

Hello yeezevee, glad to see you, I loved your videos of the debate. It seems Sam Harris is a decent guy, and hold on to common sense strongly. Though what he hold as common sense is not shared by many people, and here where lies the problem. Of the debate itself, I think he won the debate by out rhetoric William Craig, and never falls to the opponent game.

Please share more of his videos, recently I had watched him in Tedtalks on morality and also debating a rabbi (which is hilarious) and also debating reza salam.

The part you bolded is in reply why not use pronoun such as dog and lesbian, because it seems derogatory to many people.

The attribute of God is, He allows us (humanity) some form of free will and choices, and He will judge us accordingly later on (this deduction of course comes from selecting from various scriptures). Hope it clear some doubts ( because doubts will always be in us)
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Hallo, need to discuss some of my doubt
Reply #33 - December 19, 2012, 12:34 PM

Why are we arguing over the sex of a non-existent entity again?
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Reply #34 - December 19, 2012, 12:40 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on December 19, 2012, 12:19 PM
that fact "woman are biologically different from man " is known to every species. do you think people reading this forum don't know that ? Any ways well i was the under the impression not just human being but " every species in this biological world knows that there is a difference between female and male species. And whatever story that may be in those religions books written by some cave men., Well many people interpret some silly stories written 100os of years back in many ways . But what is that has to do with that book being revealed by Allah/god..whatever ? and and on top of it enforcing such views on rest of the population through organized mafias and organized religious/political organizations?
Ibrahim is putting lot of it on the table. I wish I could eat a part of it and digest it.

So did you read Quran? i wonder about it's main theme that you seem to have grasped but many missed it.

The are more differences between men and women than previously thoughts in terms of psycho-emotion.

The Quran, lets us assume it is made by Muhammad or various Arabs living in the unsophisticated period, will at least make a deist reflects. The opening verse, with simple but sublime praises to lord and asking Him to help us find meaning in this world is very beautiful to many people.

It tells us, If we know God create us, surely we would follow Him. And if we rejects, He will be displease

Now there is difference of rejecting Muhammad as His representatives and rejects Him. Many people rejects Muhammad but acknowledge we have to be grateful to God if he exist
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Reply #35 - December 19, 2012, 12:52 PM

Quote from: Ibrahim on December 19, 2012, 12:27 PM
Hello yeezevee, glad to see you, I loved your videos of the debate. It seems Sam Harris is a decent guy, and hold on to common sense strongly. Though what he hold as common sense is not shared by many people, and here where lies the problem. Of the debate itself, I think he won the debate by out rhetoric William Craig, and never falls to the opponent game.

Please share more of his videos, recently I had watched him in Tedtalks on morality and also debating a rabbi (which is hilarious) and also debating reza salam.

I am glad you already have seen lot of discussions and lot of videos Ibrahim. I am surprised you say Sam Harris own over William Craig., your posts suggest other way around Ibrahim.

Quote
The part you bolded is in reply why not use pronoun such as dog and lesbian, because it seems derogatory to many people.

The attribute of God is, He allows us (humanity) some form of free will and choices, and He will judge us accordingly later on (this deduction of course comes from selecting from various scriptures). Hope it clear some doubts ( because doubts will always be in us)

Well that is your way and your understanding of an "attribute of your God". And It appears you are interpreting that from scriptures you read. You must have freedom to do that. I fight for such freedoms and freedom of expression Ibrahim. And I hope you give me the freedom to question your interpretation of god .. lol..

Anyways I give very little respect to books and scriptures i consider them as story books of their time.. They may have served the purpose during their time but not for 21st century. You see I am one of those guys who grew out of this word .. the Noun "GOD" completely. My god died young.. i killed my god when i was ~ 12 -13 year old. But what I believe is in actions.."godliness" and i don't mind seeing god and i have seen god in the actions of dogs, gays, lesbians and buffaloes. And I have seen devils and devilish actions in messengers & preachers. So I consider dogs, gays, lesbians and buffaloes too represent some godly actions,some actions of god. And so i don't mind calling and I don't mind seeing god in dogs ..lesbians.. cats rats buffaloes whatever., whatever may be the species Ibrahim. See this tube..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU8DDYz68kM

I can see the godliness/god in that single buffalo that you can easily point out in that tube. And i don't mind praying to that actions/godliness of that buffalo .... please continue.

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Ibrahim
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Hallo, need to discuss some of my doubt
Reply #36 - December 19, 2012, 01:05 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on December 19, 2012, 12:52 PM
I am glad you already have seen lot of discussions and lot of videos Ibrahim. I am surprised you say Sam Harris own over William Craig., your posts suggest other way around Ibrahim.
Well that is your way and your understanding of an "attribute of your God". And It appears you are interpreting that from scriptures you read. You must have freedom to do that. I fight for such freedoms and freedom of expression Ibrahim. And I hope you give me the freedom to question your interpretation of god .. lol..

Anyways I give very little respect to books and scriptures i consider them as story books of their time.. They may have served the purpose during their time but not for 21st century. You see I am one of those guys who grew out of this word .. the Noun "GOD" completely. My god died young.. i killed my god when i was ~ 12 -13 year old. But what I believe is in actions.."godliness" and i don't mind seeing god and i have seen god in the actions of dogs, gays, lesbians and buffaloes. And I have seen devils and devilish actions in messengers & preachers. So I consider dogs, gays, lesbians and buffaloes too represent some godly actions,some actions of god. And so i don't mind calling and I don't mind seeing god in dogs ..lesbians.. cats rats buffaloes whatever., whatever may be the species Ibrahim. See this tube..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU8DDYz68kM

I can see the godliness/god in that single buffalo that you can easily point out in that tube. And i don't mind praying to that actions/godliness of that buffalo .... please continue.

Seems you have reject the concept of God with huge contempt on it

When you watched the buffalo the lions and the crocs, have you ever wondered how primitive live forms of cells in the ocean evolved into those animals. The same natural process that cause human to write scriptures claiming to be from some Deity. The same evolution that make people like you question God and rebel against people talking about Him.
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Reply #37 - December 19, 2012, 01:15 PM

I think morality is relative, whether they derive it from scriptures or they are atheist. You can see how the atheist and deist behaves to foreigners when economics problems set in Greece. The communist, nationalist, and fascism proves that in recent history. It is matter of relativity according to their understanding, socio-politico background, and how affluent they are, that affects their morality in general
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Reply #38 - December 19, 2012, 01:21 PM

Quote from: Ibrahim on December 19, 2012, 01:05 PM
Seems you have reject the concept of God with huge contempt on it

When you watched the buffalo the lions and the crocs, have you ever wondered how primitive live forms of cells in the ocean evolved into those animals. The same natural process that cause human to write scriptures claiming to be from some Deity. The same evolution that make people like you question God and rebel against people talking about Him.

What I am talking is different and that is "seeing the attributes of god through the biological evolution"

Concept of god and its origins is different from god of books and god of gaps Ibrahim. I am not rebelling against people talking about Him and heeee god Ibrahim. I am just writing about heeee god . I don't want them(the heee god believers) to suffer in jails. I give full freedom to those who believe in "Heee" and i too want my freedom to question " heee" that is all what I am asking. that is all what i am begging for Ibrahim. I tell you this what I write on the web if i say loudly in some countries i will be in jail and in many countries my head will be hanging on a pole.

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Ibrahim
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Hallo, need to discuss some of my doubt
Reply #39 - December 19, 2012, 01:26 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on December 19, 2012, 01:21 PM
What I am talking is different and that is "seeing the attributes of god through the biological evolution"

Concept of god and its origins is different from god of books and god gaps Ibrahim. I am not rebelling against people talking about Him and heeee god Ibrahim. I am just writing about heeee god . I don't want them(the heee god believers) to suffer in jails. I give full freedom to those who believe in "Heee" and i too want my freedom to question " heee" that is all what I am asking. that is all what i am begging for Ibrahim. I tell you this what I write on the web if i say loudly in some countries i will be in jail and in many countries my head will be hanging on a pole.

Yeap, it is a huge challenge. All the best
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Reply #40 - December 19, 2012, 01:59 PM

Quote from: Ibrahim on December 19, 2012, 01:26 PM
Yeap, it is a huge challenge. All the best

for some reason i see confusing and contradicting thoughts in your posts Ibrahim. correct me if i am wrong.. in one of your posts you wrote..

Quote from: Ibrahim on December 19, 2012, 12:40 PM
The are more differences between men and women than previously thoughts in terms of psycho-emotion.

And I am sure you understand those psycho-emotions are from SOCIAL-FAMILIAL-RELIGIOUS-POLITICAL conditioning of woman folks and are not natural.

Quote
The Quran, lets us assume it is made by Muhammad or various Arabs living in the unsophisticated period, will at least make a deist reflects. The opening verse, with simple but sublime praises to lord and asking Him to help us find meaning in this world is very beautiful to many people.

It tells us, If we know God create us, surely we would follow Him. And if we rejects, He will be displease

Now there is difference of rejecting Muhammad as His representatives and rejects Him. Many people rejects Muhammad but acknowledge we have to be grateful to God if he exist

So what? there are dime a dozen books from religions talking nonsense about god ., So do you consider that book is from god and it is god's word? I don't think you read Quran. Quran is more than what you said., ...much more....

It is a political manual to build a system that controls every aspect of human life.

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Ibrahim
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Hallo, need to discuss some of my doubt
Reply #41 - December 19, 2012, 02:31 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on December 19, 2012, 01:59 PM
for some reason i see confusing and contradicting thoughts in your posts Ibrahim. correct me if i am wrong.. in one of your posts you wrote..
And I am sure you understand those psycho-emotions are from SOCIAL-FAMILIAL-RELIGIOUS-POLITICAL conditioning of woman folks and are not natural.
So what? there are dime a dozen books from religions talking nonsense about god ., So do you consider that book is from god and it is god's word? I don't think you read Quran. Quran is more than what you said., ...much more....

It is a political manual to build a system that controls every aspect of human life.

It depends from your preconceived ideas. People thinks differently. There will always be a conflict of opinions and that is the reality. Simply put it, people can believes whatever they want, deluding themselves to most extent. We just... Live so to say . Some people stands for some ideal such as freedom of expression like you, some seeks to find meanings, some just believed what their mullah told them. Ok this is common sense, but people tend to find when other people thinks uncritically in their perspective, they forget that people are accustom and used to live in delusion. Human=delusion=normal=crazy. But it's their freedom

Since they are so many perplexing stuffs and miracles of evolution, Big Bang, life it self, many people will still choose some form of God to explain them. People reacts differently

Reply #42 - December 19, 2012, 02:40 PM

Quote from: Ibrahim on December 19, 2012, 02:31 PM

[s]It depends from your preconceived ideas. People thinks differently. There will always be a conflict of opinions and that is the reality. Simply put it, people can believes whatever they want, deluding themselves to most extent. We just... Live so to say  :). Some people stands for some ideal such as freedom of expression like you, some seeks to find meanings, some just believed what their mullah told them. Ok this is common sense, but people tend to find when other people thinks uncritically in their perspective, they forget that people are accustom and used to live in delusion. Human=delusion=normal=crazy. But it's their freedom  :dance:

Since they are so many perplexing stuffs and miracles of evolution, Big Bang, life it self, [/s]

many people will still choose some form of God to explain them. ~~People reacts differently~~

well that is god of gaps., , that is fine with me and i am fine with them Ibrahim. I am not at all bothered with they choosing some sort of god to fall back on unexplainable issues that are out there..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything

I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim

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Hallo, need to discuss some of my doubt
Reply #43 - December 19, 2012, 02:58 PM

Ok here is my doubt, is Muhammad a honest deluded person yeezevee, or he is just a plain liar who wants to control others?
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Reply #44 - December 19, 2012, 03:06 PM

Quote from: Ibrahim on December 19, 2012, 02:58 PM
............a honest deluded person yeezevee, or he is just a plain liar who wants to control others?

Huh! a honest deluded person yeezevee? yeezevee is honestly deluded?? lol...

Ibrahim I am struggling with that question for the past 10 years ..

the first question that comes to me when you inquire about "Muhammad" is .. What Muhammad? which Muhammad people are talking about?

Are they talking Muhammad of Quran? are they talking about Muhammad of Mecca? are they talking about Muhammad of Madina ? are they talking about Muhammad of hadith?

That is a big subject..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Ibrahim
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Hallo, need to discuss some of my doubt
Reply #45 - December 19, 2012, 03:17 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on December 19, 2012, 03:06 PM
Ibrahim I am struggling with that question for the past 10 years ..

the first question that comes to me when you inquire about "Muhammad" is .. What Muhammad? which Muhammad people are talking about?

Are they talking Muhammad of Quran? are they talking about Muhammad of Mecca? are they talking about Muhammad of Madina ? are they talking about Muhammad of hadith?

That is a big subject..

Considering the earliest historical narratives were written by ibn Hisham and ibn Zubair (of his ghazi) which all are lost except what have been recollected by ibn Ishaq which near 100 year after Muhammad's death, I doubt we could get an accurate description. We have to remember that there are huge political and religious conflicts throughout that times.

More importantly, (according to the conventional history) the time of Mecca and even Muhammad's life before then, there are practically few people around him, and the fact that they are under prosecuted (deservedly or not), implies collecting and remembering the detail of his saying and action seems implausible. The Quran is the most reliable source of information in my opinion.

Ok not really related, but if the companions are truly blinded by his cult and believed Quran is the literal word of God, therefore the Quran is most likely not to be tampered with. You agree?
If they rewritten the Quran, then they don't really believed it, but just using it to further their personal goal. What your take?
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Reply #46 - December 19, 2012, 03:29 PM

Quote from: Ibrahim on December 19, 2012, 03:17 PM
Considering the earliest historical narratives were written by ibn Hisham and ibn Zubair (of his ghazi) which all are lost except what have been recollected by ibn Ishaq which near 100 year after Muhammad's death, I doubt we could get an accurate description. We have to remember that there are huge political and religious conflicts throughout that times.

More importantly, (according to the conventional history) the time of Mecca and even Muhammad's life before then, there are practically few people around him, and the fact that they are under prosecuted (deservedly or not), implies collecting and remembering the detail of his saying and action seems implausible. The Quran is the most reliable source of information in my opinion.

Ok not really related, but if the companions are truly blinded by his cult and believed Quran is the literal word of God, therefore the Quran is most likely not to be tampered with. You agree?
If they rewritten the Quran, then they don't really believed it, but just using it to further their personal goal. What your take?

well i went through lot of books and lot of junk on that subject Ibrahim. And most of it is "I say you say".. So to pull it together from various sources and make it a coherent story, I will start with time and dateline of alleged "Muhammad" character, I will not believe any one and any book on this but read, Question and inquire. To start with, I will take first 2 posts from Chronological History of Islam and see how far I go to get accurate picture of Muhammad.

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Ibrahim
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Hallo, need to discuss some of my doubt
Reply #47 - December 19, 2012, 03:34 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on December 19, 2012, 03:29 PM
well i went through lot of books and lot of junk on that subject Ibrahim. And most of it is "I say you say".. So to pull it together from various sources and make it a coherent story, I will start with time and dateline of alleged "Muhammad" character, I will not believe any one and any book on this but read, Question and inquire. To start with, I will take first 2 posts from Chronological History of Islam and see how far I go to get accurate picture of Muhammad.

Which part you disagree with the orthodox Muslims narratives apart from the early stages?
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Reply #48 - December 19, 2012, 03:40 PM

Quote from: Ibrahim on December 19, 2012, 03:34 PM
Which part you disagree with the orthodox Muslims narratives apart from the early stages?

Everything Ibrahim .., THERE WAS NO MUHAMMAD that is described in Quran/hadith and sunnah.. Muhammad is multiple characters put together as story. "That is where I am today" but given right proofs and answers to my questions i could change my views

this is for weekend discussion and serious subject.. its needs a new folder which we will do in time Ibrahim

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Ibrahim
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Hallo, need to discuss some of my doubt
Reply #49 - December 19, 2012, 03:44 PM

Ok I will get back to this to hear your views on this subject later this weekend
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Topic: Hallo, need to discuss some of my doubt

yeezevee

Reply #30 - December 19, 2012, 12:13 PM

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Reply #32 - December 19, 2012, 12:27 PM

Al-Alethia

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Ibrahim

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yeezevee

Reply #40 - December 19, 2012, 01:59 PM

Ibrahim

Reply #41 - December 19, 2012, 02:31 PM

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Ibrahim

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yeezevee

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yeezevee

Reply #46 - December 19, 2012, 03:29 PM

Ibrahim

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