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 Topic: Is the big bang supernatural?

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  • Is the big bang supernatural?
     OP - December 24, 2012, 03:40 PM
    this will always come up when talking to theists.
    Their view is you require some supernatural timeless cause of the natural laws of nature and time itself.

    It is not really a satisfying explanation, or even an 'explanation' at all.
    I realise that it is not my job to provide an alternative explanation to the theistic suggestion, especially when theirs is not really an explanation to be an alternative to anyway. However, I would like to have one.

    Is it coherent to say that the natural universe has always existed in some state?

  • Is the big bang supernatural?
     Reply #1 - December 24, 2012, 03:58 PM
    Quote
    Is it coherent to say that the natural universe has always existed in some state?



    You could try reading Lawrence Krauss's book " A universe from nothing"

    That would give you a detailed answer to your question I think.
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Is the big bang supernatural?
     Reply #2 - December 24, 2012, 05:27 PM
    Theyare still left with the question, which god, and then, who made that god? 

    I favour the flying spaghetti monster, may her noodliness be praised.
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Is the big bang supernatural?
     Reply #3 - December 24, 2012, 05:36 PM
    I usually ask the question where the connection between the God of Islam and initiator of the Big Bang comes from. And why it is justified.
    Usually sets them off on all sorts of tangents not addressing the original point. whistling2 Roll Eyes
  • Is the big bang supernatural?
     Reply #4 - December 24, 2012, 05:42 PM
    the "big bang" is agnostic towards whether it was the beginning of the universe and doesn't say anything about whether the universe is finite or infinite.

    All the big bang is, is the expansion of matter and energy. What happened before it(if they were time before it) is anybody's guess.
  • Is the big bang supernatural?
     Reply #5 - December 25, 2012, 05:23 PM
    This video did not really answer my question, but there were a couple of good Dawkins quotes worth posting:

    "Where I come from, a 'scholar' is somebody who has read more than one book"

    "There is an inverse relationship between the magnitude of the threatened punishment that a particular religion offers in it's particular hell, and the plausibility of the threat "

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0mljE9K-gY
  • Is the big bang supernatural?
     Reply #6 - December 27, 2012, 08:30 AM
    Ah.....
    There is no such thing as "supernatural", it's a BS word made up by people who want to make things up and not get challenged on them.
    If something exists, it is natural. If something exists that conflicts with our understanding of 'natural laws' it means we have an imperfect understanding of said laws and they need to be reinterpreted to factor in said thing.
    However, to say "oh that's supernatural" is just meaningless clap trap
    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Is the big bang supernatural?
     Reply #7 - December 27, 2012, 09:11 AM
    How can you have supernatural in a natural universe?
    "People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis. You can't trust people Jeremy"  - Superhans
  • Is the big bang supernatural?
     Reply #8 - December 27, 2012, 05:47 PM
    The laws of nature are said to have arisen at the big bang, so religious people demand that the big bang itself must have been supernatural by definition. - it was not subject to the laws of nature because those laws did not exist.
  • Is the big bang supernatural?
     Reply #9 - December 27, 2012, 06:06 PM
    Those laws don't exist.
    They are a means developed by humans to understand how the universe works
    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Is the big bang supernatural?
     Reply #10 - December 27, 2012, 06:32 PM
    ok, but that is still what we mean by the word 'supernatural'.
    At the big bang, the universe began operating in a way that could be described by these scientific generalisations that we call laws.
    Some event that supercedes these laws, even though they are descriptions rather than presciptions, would be still be supernatual.

  • Is the big bang supernatural?
     Reply #11 - December 27, 2012, 07:13 PM
    You're falsely assuming that there wouldn't be a natural law to explain whatever came before the big bang.  In other words, you're assuming that science cannot explain it since if we were to explain such an event it would certainly be part of our natural world.  As of yet, we have no reason to assume anything since we know next to nothing on this matter.  The word supernatural is, by definition, a grotesquely lazy term for people who presume that whatever event or phenomena they're applying it to can never be explained.
    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Is the big bang supernatural?
     Reply #12 - December 28, 2012, 04:15 AM
    Quote from: dr_sloth on December 27, 2012, 05:47 PM
    The laws of nature are said to have arisen at the big bang, so religious people demand that the big bang itself must have been supernatural by definition. - it was not subject to the laws of nature because those laws did not exist.


    Religious people claim flying horses, split Moon and virgin births so what they assert is less than relevant. Simply put, is there evidence of the "supernatural" birthing the natural?
    "People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis. You can't trust people Jeremy"  - Superhans
  • Is the big bang supernatural?
     Reply #13 - December 28, 2012, 05:43 AM
    Moi, I love the FSM! But I thought it was a god, not a goddess. I'd like a little champagne, pepsi and chocolate fountain all to myself. And all the fictional characters I've fallen in love with adore me!  dance  I like the Wiccan unofficial creation story. The big bang happened when the god and goddess had sex and created the universe. Personally, I have no qualms with evolution or the big bang. I think that for every scientific explanation, there's a supernatural explanation too. But people tend to disrespect the supernatural because science is 'superior' or whatever. I don't mean to downplay science; my point is that there's some value to the supernatural paradigm too. Now I am someone who has really really supernatural beliefs. I'm a pagan and a witch. I believe in unicorns, gods, magic, alfar, sidhe, spirit guides and I'm even open to the idea of dragons. Call me crazy or whatever you want (lol, that ship sailed long ago). But whether or not my beliefs are 'accurate' or 'real', I don't care. Because I get so much fulfillment and happiness from them. Just my 2 cents. Sorry if this is too much, I just took my happy pills.
  • Is the big bang supernatural?
     Reply #14 - December 28, 2012, 08:47 PM
    Quote from: dr_sloth on December 24, 2012, 03:40 PM
    Is it coherent to say that the natural universe has always existed in some state?

    If time is part of the universe, then the universe has always existed by definition of the word "always"
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Is the big bang supernatural?
     Reply #15 - December 30, 2012, 08:57 AM
    Time does not exist as a dimension on its own, rather it is a dimension forged by human perception.
    <mchawking>: there's a 9 inch one coming out next month and I wish I had money
  • Is the big bang supernatural?
     Reply #16 - December 30, 2012, 09:00 AM
    I'll explain this to the best of my knowledge:

    The Big Bang was the expansion of spacetime (space and time are not separate, they are one in the same) at the beginning of our universe. We know for certain that the big bang happened because of the expansion of the universe (which we can measure and use to extrapolate), and because of the energy it has left behind (cosmic radiation form the big band was predicted and later found to exist. it is part of the static on old TVs). I think there are a couple more pieces of evidence but I don't recall them.

    The big band does not say that something came from nothing. It simply states that the universe was in a hot dense state and then expanded.

    We do not know why. We do not know how. to say anything else would be to be dishonest. We do not know if the big bang decided the various universal forces (strong, weak, electromagnetic, and gravitational), constants (like the gravitational constant g - google it), and ratios of forces (comparative strength of forces).

    We also do not know if the big bang is a unique event. It is entirely possible that universes other than our own have arisen in a similar matter, but we have no data to prove or even suggest that (and we may never have such data depending on the model used). It's just that the math allows it.

    Always remember that there are some things we can't say we honestly know. There are also some things we may never know. We can speculate all we like, but speculation is not data or proof.
  • Is the big bang supernatural?
     Reply #17 - December 30, 2012, 10:21 AM
    Well put, Seth
    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Is the big bang supernatural?
     Reply #18 - December 31, 2012, 08:08 PM
    ^

    Would the physicist like to elaborate ?    Smiley
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Is the big bang supernatural?
     Reply #19 - December 31, 2012, 09:05 PM
    Isn't it generally accepted that time itself 'began to exist' at the big bang?
    That is the crux of the matter.
    That is where theists demand that only magic/god can explain how there can be an effect without a cause inside the universe - the universe was created by god who is outside the universe and outside time.
  • Is the big bang supernatural?
     Reply #20 - January 02, 2013, 05:31 AM
    Spacetime (remember there is no time) AS WE KNOW IT started at the big bang as far as we know. We have no idea of the conditions that existed beforehand.

    For all we know the big bang could have had a cause. All we can do right now is speculate until some kind of technology or research allows us to find out. Whether such technology/research is even possible is unknown to me however.

    Some theists are quick to demand what caused the big bang because the universe couldn't just be in that state without a reason, right? I mean it's not like they say that god just existed in his state without a reason right? Oh wait... whistling2

    Well at least they admit they have no way of knowing and that is only to the extent of their current knowledge a... oops. Roll Eyes

    As a general rule of thumb, try to avoid speculating on the parts of the universe's origins that are unknown. It tends to lead to many nipples being flustered.
  • Is the big bang supernatural?
     Reply #21 - January 03, 2013, 12:30 AM
    For some reason, it's very hard for the average human to say and be happy with "I don't know".
    "People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis. You can't trust people Jeremy"  - Superhans
  • Is the big bang supernatural?
     Reply #22 - January 03, 2013, 05:50 AM
    Quote from: Anubis on January 03, 2013, 12:30 AM
    For some reason, it's very hard for the average human to say and be happy with "I don't know".


    And I have no idea why that is. I'm perfectly okay with it.

    In fact, it seems to be that the people who most often admit they don't know something are actually the people who know the most. wacko
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