A Letter to 6 year old Aisha.

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A Letter to 6 year old Aisha.
OP - January 18, 2013, 08:49 PM

I made this post on r/exmuslim as well, but I want to share it with you guys too.

Dear 6 year old Aisha, wife of the Prophet.

I'm sorry.

I'm sorry as a 6 year old girl, you had to be taken away from your family for the sick sexual joy of a 60/70 year old pedophile. I'm sorry it was done in the name of a religion associated with war, hate mongering and violence. I never realized your plight until today.

Today a 2nd cousin of mine turned 6. As I was pushing her on her swing, trying to make her laugh, helping her arrange her toys and encouraging her to eat everything she served on her plate, I remembered you Aisha. I cannot imagine such a tiny little girl having to go through marriage. I cannot imagine such a tiny little girl forced into sexual intercourse just because she was married to the man who proclaimed he had heard the word of god. I cannot imagine my little cousin born during your time. The horrors she would have to go through. I am thankful she has an amazing childhood, full of toys, learning and happiness. I am sorry you lost yours.

Aisha, you may not understand what I am saying, you may not agree to it as your years of brain washing has made you intolerant of different opinions other than your husband's. It closed your mind to never see things for what they really were. But if you were here right now, you would understand. If you were here right now, we could save you, we could restore your innocence. We could have given you a normal life.

My little cousin is lucky. She's lucky to be born to liberal parents in a non-Muslim country. She's lucky she doesn't have to go through the things you went through and I have never realized the extent of such horror until today when I couldn't bear the thought of my cousin having to go through what you did.

Sometimes even though I know it's not possible and I am very skeptical about it, I hope a paradise exists in the afterlife. I hope you are there Aisha. I hope you were given everything that was taken away from you at such a young age. I hope a paradise exists for everyone during the prophet's time and after who were brutally persecuted in the name of religion.

I'm sorry Aisha. I'm sorry you could not have been born during a better time. I'm sorry to everyone who suffered massive injustice. I hope at least in death, in the non-existence of life and the final end of your conscience, you are at peace.

Your's Sincerely
An Ex-Muslim.
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Reply #1 - January 19, 2013, 02:41 PM

You know I've always had a problem with the characterization of Muhammad as a "pedophile", not that I have any special love for him, but I just think these claims are flimsy and inaccurate, so I will give my reasons. Sorry for going topic, but I need to get this off my chest.

First off, when I hear of the word "pedophile" what comes to mind is a creepy old white dude that has some kind of sexual predisposition to like little boys/girls, and is always preying on them etc. If you look at the definition of the word pedophile:

" a psychiatric disorder in persons 16 years of age or older typically characterized by a primary or exclusive sexual interest in prepubescent children" or a "disorder of adult personality and behaviour in which there is a sexual preference for children of prepubertal or early pubertal age."

Now, does what we know about Muhammad indicate to us he has a sexual preference for little girls?

1. Muhammad was married to , and only to Khadiha (who was about 40), for 25 years. He wasn't married for years later.
2. The marriage of Aisha was a result of Abu Bakr's suggestion/insistence. Muhammad did not seek the marriage. Most agree this marriage happened so they could solidify family/political ties, as was common in the time. Nothing I know seems to indicate he had a particular urge for little girls.

Now say, would Muhammad have married Aisha if Abu Bakr did not have six year old daughter? I don't think there's any reason to believe so.

As said, a pedophile has sexual fantasies about little children and/or has a preference for them. Many of you will say he was a warlord/dictator etc, why then didn't he get himself more child brides? Or got another child wife once Aisha passed puberty? He certainly was in the position and could have if he wanted to. I don't think there's any reason other than mere circumstance that Muhammad got into a relationship with Aisha. You may at the very best call Muhammad's alleged sex with a six year old "pedophillic behavior" but that doesn't really meet the definition of a real pedophile.

Now, this all is of course assuming the selective hadiths that tell us this story are accurate. But again, hadiths as know often contradictory and/or unreliable/forgeries. What would you say to the Muslim that invokes "scientific scrutiny" of the hadith to disprove it/claim it unreliable? There seems to be a good case made here if you read below: http://www.ilaam.net/Articles/Ayesha.htmly

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Reply #2 - January 19, 2013, 07:30 PM

I have to agree with Z-bo that Mohammed should not be characterised on the limited accounts of Hadiths and Islamic Tradition alone as a kiddy fiddler with a penchant for children. Whether he truly was guilty of it or not is unknowable, I think to say he was conclusively is pure speculation and conjecture. He did marry a number of women and only Aisha was documented as having being a prepubscent girl. Saying the stories indicate that he instigated the marriage because she was a child is clutching at straws.

This however does not condone the situation of the marriage. My problem with the whole scenario other than her age is that I find it hard to grasp that Muslims would argue she had a choice. It is clearly a political move and I know Muslims would argue that Mohammed didn't do it for gain. But that is the most asinine reasoning one can come up with. There is clearly a gain from him marrying Aisha if they want argue he wasn't attracted to Kids. They can not have it both ways. This whole situation confirms that Mohammed is a man of his time and to say he is an example to all times is beyond absurd.

In all this I do understand what Justgotsmashed letter is trying to convey. We often forget Aisha and her ordeal in bieng thrown in to a patrairchal society. Bieng coerced in to things a child should not even be experiencing a her age or even at all. She is an example of what happens when kids are indoctrinated in to thinking a certian way, Muslim responses in which they say Aisha was happy and content with the marriage proves this point. In her society would she be able to say otherwise and do we really know she didn't. History is written by the winners, whats to say her romanticised relationship with Mohammed not just a political propaganda.

I always wondered how many Muslims would be willing to give their underage daughter over to the prophet without reservation if he was born in this era. I suspect it would depend on how much they believe his claims or loved him, on that count I'd say quite a majority would.
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Reply #3 - January 19, 2013, 08:09 PM

Quality replies guys

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Reply #4 - January 19, 2013, 10:10 PM

Quote from: Z-Bo
First off, when I hear of the word "pedophile" what comes to mind is a creepy old white dude

Wow, do you have any statistics to back up your blatantly racist stereotype? Or is that simply based on what you've seen on tv?

Anyway whether he was a pedophile or simply a child molester is relatively unimportant, but pedophile has a better ring to it than child molester. "The pedophile prophet" sounds better than "the child molester prophet".

Your link is broken, but I have seen Muslims trying to claim those hadiths are inaccurate many times but their arguments are weak and mainly rest on pointing out some chronological discrepencies. The thing is the exact chronology has always been known by Muslims to be the most dubious part of the Sirah. The dates of when things happened were reconstructed by Ibn Ishaq, and those dates that he established have always formed the basis of the chronology, but it has always been known that a lot of guestimates went into that.

If countless Sahih hadiths say that she was 9 years old when she married Mo, then i would trust those hadiths over some guy living 1,400 years later trying to claim that that cant be because she would then be too young to have been present at some battle whose date was established by Ibn Ishaq.
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Reply #5 - January 19, 2013, 10:26 PM

Ah. I saw this one Reddit today. It was an interesting read.
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Reply #6 - January 20, 2013, 12:30 AM

@Tonyt Please remove the "y" at the end of the link address to visit.

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Reply #7 - January 20, 2013, 01:21 AM

Quote from: Z-Bo on January 19, 2013, 02:41 PM
First off, when I hear of the word "pedophile" what comes to mind is a creepy old white dude that has some kind of sexual predisposition to like little boys/girls, and is always preying on them etc. If you look at the definition of the word pedophile:

^
I've noticed old Whitey's coming in for a bit of pigeon holing from you lately.
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Reply #8 - January 20, 2013, 01:58 AM

Quote from: Z-Bo on January 19, 2013, 02:41 PM

First off, when I hear of the word "pedophile" what comes to mind is a creepy old white dude that has some kind of sexual predisposition to like little boys/girls, and is always preying on them etc.

One has to wonder what z-bo's disorder is.

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Reply #9 - January 20, 2013, 02:19 AM

An old man gets aroused by a prepubescent 9 year old girl + has sexual intercourse with her = pedophile.

A pedophile can be young or geriatric, male or female, rich or poor.
Let's put things into perspective, Mohammed married a rich widow, made sure that his new religion treated women like cattle, he never felt the need to actually follow the rules that he set forth for others to follow in Islam such as having more than 4 wives, some of who did not want to be married to him, and he married a 6 year old little girl who he then raped when she was only 9 years old so I'd say this paints a pretty clear picture of what his true motivations were.

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Reply #10 - January 20, 2013, 02:39 AM

Good points, plus don't forget that he clearly wasn't molesting his grown up wives, since all those women could not possibly had been so infertile.

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Reply #11 - January 20, 2013, 03:02 AM

Quote from: Tonyt on January 19, 2013, 10:10 PM
Wow, do you have any statistics to back up your blatantly racist stereotype? Or is that simply based on what you've seen on tv?

I never claimed it to be true, or tried to justify it, I just said it was what "came to mind". Of course it is a stereotype.

Quote
Anyway whether he was a pedophile or simply a child molester is relatively unimportant, but pedophile has a better ring to it than child molester. "The pedophile prophet" sounds better than "the child molester prophet".

Heh? Who cares what sounds better? You shouldn't speak as a matter-of-fact by what something sounds like.

Those hadiths that say he married Aisha at six also say the marriage wasn't consummated until she reached the age of puberty, so lets not forget that part. A child molestor is a person who molests someone between the ages of birth and puberty. So technically thats not child abuse right? We can't just cherry pick parts from the same hadith now can we....

Quote
If countless Sahih hadiths say that she was 9 years old when she married Mo, then i would trust those hadiths over some guy living 1,400 years later trying to claim that that cant be because she would then be too young to have been present at some battle whose date was established by Ibn Ishaq.

lol. what countless hadith do you speak of? you will find most of them are narrated by one person, Hisham. anyway "sahih" hadith aren't as authentic as you think, A LOT if them are known to be forgeries/unreliable

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Reply #12 - January 20, 2013, 03:05 AM

Quote from: Tonyt on January 19, 2013, 10:10 PM
Wow, do you have any statistics to back up your blatantly racist stereotype? Or is that simply based on what you've seen on tv?

Jesus Christ, it's a bloody mental picture. People on this forum seem to eager to throw around racism claims

I don't know why it is, but the usual stereotype for a pedo seems to be some creepy old white guy with a weird beard or glasses. Kind of like when you picture a stereotypical gangster you picture a white or black male with one of those big hats on sideways and his pants halfway down his legs. I dunno where stereotype pictures come from, but stuff like TV shows and internet stories and what not are probably a big part.

Regardless of that though, what the actual fuck does his stereotypical image of a paedophile have to do with him being racist? He does not say that all white people are pedos. He does not say that all old men are pedos. He does not say that all men are pedos. There's nothing to suggest he would judge people by anything other than who they are themselves.

Just calm your tits.
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Reply #13 - January 20, 2013, 03:08 AM

^

Thanks.

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Reply #14 - January 20, 2013, 03:09 AM

Quote from: sethyboy0 on January 20, 2013, 03:05 AM
Jesus Christ, it's a bloody mental picture. People on this forum seem to eager to throw around racism claims

would you defend me darling if i was to say that the first thing that comes to my mind when i hear crack is a toothless black woman?

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Reply #15 - January 20, 2013, 03:11 AM

^That's what comes to my mind too

Stereotyping is not racism/

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Reply #16 - January 20, 2013, 03:13 AM

Quote from: Alex Lam Meem on January 20, 2013, 03:09 AM
would you defend me darling if i was to say that the first thing that comes to my mind when i hear crack is a toothless black woman?

Sounds a bit weird to me but as long as you don't think crazy things like all crack heads being black or all thoothless people being crackheads I don't really care.
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Reply #17 - January 20, 2013, 03:20 AM

How dare you question that! Of course I wouldn't think such things against toothless people! Btw, what's so weird about it? The other image seems to have been more acceptable to you.

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Reply #18 - January 20, 2013, 03:23 AM

I haven't heard yours as often.

All stereotypes are pretty much just as weird as each other in the end though.
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Reply #19 - January 20, 2013, 03:26 AM

Well then next time I use one, I expect you no to question my racism, bro.

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Reply #20 - January 20, 2013, 03:26 AM

DUN WORRY MAN, WE IS TIGHT.
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Reply #21 - January 20, 2013, 08:31 AM

Quote from: Alex Lam Meem on January 20, 2013, 03:09 AM
would you defend me darling if i was to say that the first thing that comes to my mind when i hear crack is a toothless black woman?

Despite the fact that this wasn't directed at me, as a black woman (with all teeth intact) I really wouldn't give a shit. When someone says "crack whore" I get the same mental image: an uncouth, gritty, toothless, homeless black woman. I think you're just over-sensitive when it comes to race.

The odd thing about Z-bo's "pedophiles are creepy white dudes" comment is that he used that to support his view that Mo wasn't a pedo. As if to say, "he wasn't a middle-aged white guy with a van, so how can he be a pedophile?". Nevermind that some Hadith refer to Mo being white. If someone told me Mary Lou is a crack ho I wouldn't say "but she's not a toothless black woman!" "; even though "crack ho" evokes that mental image I know they come in all shapes, colours and sizes.
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Reply #22 - January 20, 2013, 08:41 AM

Dun worry man, we is just perpetuating a racialist society.

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Reply #23 - January 20, 2013, 08:50 AM

Quote from: Al-Alethia on January 20, 2013, 08:31 AM
Despite the fact that this wasn't directed at me, as a black woman (with all teeth intact) I really wouldn't give a shit. When someone says "crack whore" I get the same mental image: an uncouth, gritty, toothless, homeless black woman. I think you're just over-sensitive when it comes to race.

The odd thing about Z-bo's "pedophiles are creepy white dudes" comment is that he used that to support his view that Mo wasn't a pedo. As if to say, "he wasn't a middle-aged white guy with a van, so how can he be a pedophile?". Nevermind that some Hadith refer to Mo being white. If someone told me Mary Lou is a crack ho I wouldn't say "but she's not a toothless black woman!" "; even though "crack ho" evokes that mental image I know they come in all shapes, colours and sizes.

No, when someone refers to a crack abuser, what it is accurate to assume is a person who abuses crack. You've already admitted that adding all the other baggage to the mental image could lead to imprecision by some people. So why perpetuate the stereotype in the first place?

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Reply #24 - January 20, 2013, 08:51 AM

Quote from: Z-Bo on January 19, 2013, 02:41 PM
2. The marriage of Aisha was a result of Abu Bakr's suggestion/insistence. Muhammad did not seek the marriage. Most agree this marriage happened so they could solidify family/political ties, as was common in the time. Nothing I know seems to indicate he had a particular urge for little girls. As said, a pedophile has sexual fantasies about little children and/or has a preference for them.

That's complete BS! Mo said he saw baby A'isha in a dream (sexual fantasy?) and Allah told him to marry her. Abu Bakr was actually hesitant to give his little girl to Mo and tried to wriggle out of it by saying the two of them were brothers (hence Muhammad couldn't marry A'isha, as she was his "niece") but Mo wouldn't have it and Abu Bakr gave her to him. Most DON'T agree that the marriage was to solidify ties; in fact this justification has no basis in Quran/Hadith/sirah at all and is a completely arbitrary and untrue one created recently by (uninformed) modern Muslim apologists.
Abu Bakr was the first Muslim convert IIRC and Mo's closest companion; there's absolutely no need for any marriages to strengthen their bond (they were best friends, "brothers" in Abu Bakr's eyes) and again nothing in Islamic texts alludes to or implies this.
I think he may have been mentally ill and the "urge for little girls" kicked in when he was older. I recall a Hadith where a baby girl was playing and he remarked that if he is alive when she's older he'll marry her. A fucking baby!

Quote from: Z-Bo on January 19, 2013, 02:41 PM
Those hadiths that say he married Aisha at six also say the marriage wasn't consummated until she reached the age of puberty, so lets not forget that part.

Hadith tell us A'isha was playing with dolls and swings when she was taken to Mo; commentary by the Hadith collector states that A'isha was allowed to play with dolls because she was pre-pubescent. There is a strong case for A'isha being pre-pubescent when Mo started raping her. Meanwhile, there's no indication at all anywhere that she is not pre-pubescent or anything other than a playful little girl.

Quote from: Z-Bo on January 19, 2013, 02:41 PM
A child molestor is a person who molests someone between the ages of birth and puberty

Whose definition of child molesting is that?
Puberty isn't something you can pinpoint to a specific occurrence. Menarche =/= she's an adult who has passed puberty now. Wet dreams =/= adult. Hair growing in certain parts =/= adult.
Puberty is a process and a girl could start menstruating at 10 but still be growing and developing, not to mention being mentally and emotionally unfit for marriage and sex so the question must be asked: when does a child become an adult? I would say 18 (thanks to my socialisation) but to be honest it would be much less objectionable and much easier to argue that Mo wasn't a pedo if A'isha was at least 13.
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Reply #25 - January 20, 2013, 09:01 AM

@asbie
I'm just being honest in saying that certain types of "occupations" and "proclivities" evoke certain mental images. Don't deny they do. What does this generic crack abuser look like to you? Most likely a white guy with sunken eyes, bony face, rotten/fallen out teeth, etc. Out of all the times I've called for tech support or had someone call to advertise something over the phone, I'd say 98% of the time the person on the other end was from India. Is it racist that when someone says "telemarketing people advertising a way to save 40% on your phone bill" I think an Indian guy in a call centre somewhere far away?
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Reply #26 - January 20, 2013, 09:02 AM

Quote from: Alex Lam Meem on January 20, 2013, 02:39 AM
Good points, plus don't forget that he clearly wasn't molesting his grown up wives, since all those women could not possibly had been so infertile.

Excellent point! Who's to say he was even having sex with the other wives? He had a dozen women and how many bore him children again? We also know that many of his marriages were purely political and to forge ties with certain tribes. There's a Hadith where he says not to hate on him for preferring A'isha as "revelations come to me on her bed"
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Reply #27 - January 20, 2013, 09:14 AM

Quote from: Al-Alethia on January 20, 2013, 09:01 AM
@asbie
I'm just being honest in saying that certain types of "occupations" and "proclivities" evoke certain mental images. Don't deny they do. What does this generic crack abuser look like to you? Most likely a white guy with sunken eyes, bony face, rotten/fallen out teeth, etc. Out of all the times I've called for tech support or had someone call to advertise something over the phone, I'd say 98% of the time the person on the other end was from India. Is it racist that when someone says "telemarketing people advertising a way to save 40% on your phone bill" I think an Indian guy in a call centre somewhere far away?

It's not racist, but it's perpetuating a stereotype that can lead to racialism gaining traction in society.

As far as what a generic x,y,z looks like, I really don't find the need to create visualizations of people until I actually see them. Until then I can deal with the abstraction of the occupation, disease, addiction, etc. without finding the need to put a specific face to it.

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Reply #28 - January 20, 2013, 10:25 AM

All I'm saying is if someone asks: what's the first thing that comes to your mind when you hear "pedophile" and you reply "creepy middle-aged white dude who hangs around the local primary school in a van with tinted windows" I don't see a problem with that. Even if you remove "white", the image in my head is still of a white guy. That is the first image that would come to my mind but it doesn't inform my behaviour or how I interact with people. I don't know how that leads to racialism or anything of the sort.

By racialism, I assume you mean believing that there are distinct races amongst human beings. I don't necessarily believe that; I know I'm black, I know most people in this country are white but not everyone fits into a racial category (heck, most of my maternal cousins can't be boxed into a category) and I don't think race matters anymore than hair colour and actually view it the same way. The word "bimbo" elicits a mental image of a stock buxom blonde female. Does this lead to hairalism or a deeply held conviction that there exist distinct differences between those of different hair colours? Does it lead to me giving a shit what someone's hair colour is or treating people differently based on their hair colour?
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Reply #29 - January 20, 2013, 10:33 AM

Nice letter. How about one for Mohammed?

I have a problem with stereotyping paedophiles, rapists, sexual abusers and the like. Because by stereotyping sexual abusers they're presented as these abnormal strange men (people) who look and behave in certain ways. When in actual fact, in order to abuse a child, rape a person etc you can just be your average 'normal' person with a family, job, friends etc (you don't even have to be creepy or anything).

Marital rape became illegal in 1991 in England. Does that mean men never raped their wives before that?
Just because we now believe paedophilia to be a biological condition does not mean that before this discovery there was no such thing as a paedophile. If we define paedophile as being someone who has sex with children.
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