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 Topic: Gay Marriage Bill Passes

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  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #30 - February 12, 2013, 11:44 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on February 12, 2013, 11:42 PM
    But it isn't about that for me or anyone I know. For me it's about a romantic commitment, as relevant now as it ever was.


    You need the state for romantic commitment? Dunno, that kinda killed the romance for me (both times!)
  • Re: Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #31 - February 12, 2013, 11:47 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on February 12, 2013, 11:42 PM
    But it isn't about that for me or anyone I know. For me it's about a romantic commitment, as relevant now as it ever was.


    Yeah no I get that and some people find romance in the institution of marriage. I never did, even before I knew what being LGBT was.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #32 - February 12, 2013, 11:47 PM
    Quote from: Amsterdamned on February 12, 2013, 11:43 PM
    It hasn't brought equal rights. A straight couple still don't have the choice of a civil partnership in the UK.

    Straight couples already have civil marriage. It's a civil partnership that is the lesser thing.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #33 - February 12, 2013, 11:49 PM
    Quote from: Amsterdamned on February 12, 2013, 11:44 PM
    You need the state for romantic commitment?

    This particular one, yes.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #34 - February 12, 2013, 11:49 PM
    See, you pay the State money to put down in its records that you are legally consenting to only have sex with this 1 person.

    Then, if you want a divorce, you pay the State to grant you the right to legally have sex with others.

    I don't find the government sexy or romantic at all. Don't see why it should keep tabs on me any more than it already does. Definitely don't want it keeping tabs on what I do with my vagina.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #35 - February 12, 2013, 11:50 PM
    Quote from: Amsterdamned on February 12, 2013, 11:43 PM
    It hasn't brought equal rights. A straight couple still don't have the choice of a civil partnership in the UK. So, they are being forced into the institution of marriage & the rights you talk of, yes, they are all property rights!

    And not all anarchists throw bombs. You say anarchist like it is a bad thing. And it is the same kind of tired analogy that people used to make at me when I was still Muslim about chucking bombs. Just saying :p

     Cheesy That bomb-throwing comment wasn't meant to be taken seriously.

    Yes I know it's largely about property rights, although things like leave aren't property. If straight couples can't have a civil partnership in the UK and want that fixed, I'd be fine with fixing that too. I can't see the point of grumbling though if gay peeps want to get married. Their biz. No skin off my nose.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #36 - February 12, 2013, 11:50 PM
    They have no choice though. When I got married, I wanted a civil partnership & NOT a marriage. The marriage to ME was the lesser thing. You telling me we have civil marriage & that civil partnership is the lesser thing makes no difference - to me, marriage will always be lesser as it's founded in religion. Not having the the same choices is not equality now, is it?
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #37 - February 12, 2013, 11:51 PM
    I think that all the fundamentalists who argue so hard against gay marriage should all have to come out of the closet and admit that they are gay themselves. I am straight, so I really don’t care what gay people do. I could not imagine spending that much time and energy campaigning against an issue that would have absolutely no effect on my life whatsoever. The only way I could image a straight person caring so much is if they are suppressing something in their own selves.
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #38 - February 12, 2013, 11:55 PM
    Quote from: allat on February 12, 2013, 11:49 PM
    See, you pay the State money to put down in its records that you are legally consenting to only have sex with this 1 person.

    Then, if you want a divorce, you pay the State to grant you the right to legally have sex with others.

    I don't find the government sexy or romantic at all. Don't see why it should keep tabs on me any more than it already does. Definitely don't want it keeping tabs on what I do with my vagina.

    But the legalities are only one small facet of marriage (and the least important part to most people I know). If you're only focusing on that, then it does look like a very sterile and formal thing. When you consider everything else involved, it's a much more exciting and celebratory occasion.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #39 - February 12, 2013, 11:56 PM
    Anyway, I've written papers for school about this and don't really want to get into it too much here.

    Bottom line, equality is good. And there's still more to fight for, this ain't the end. All this is is allowing LG (not so much B or T) people some degree of equality with heterosexual people. There are still lots of legal battles ahead even in countries where SSM is legal. And there are even more cultural battles as homophobia/transphobia don't suddenly disappear just because the law gets changed.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #40 - February 12, 2013, 11:56 PM
    Quote from: Amsterdamned on February 12, 2013, 11:50 PM
    They have no choice though. When I got married, I wanted a civil partnership & NOT a marriage. The marriage to ME was the lesser thing. You telling me we have civil marriage & that civil partnership is the lesser thing makes no difference - to me, marriage will always be lesser as it's founded in religion. Not having the the same choices is not equality now, is it?

    I have NFI about UK marriage/partnership laws but like I said, I'd be fine with the UK fixing stuff if it's broken. I just don't see that there's any value in grumbling about gay people wanting the right to marry. IMO that's a separate issue from you wanting the right to not marry.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #41 - February 12, 2013, 11:57 PM
    Quote from: Amsterdamned on February 12, 2013, 11:50 PM
    They have no choice though. When I got married, I wanted a civil partnership & NOT a marriage. The marriage to ME was the lesser thing. You telling me we have civil marriage & that civil partnership is the lesser thing makes no difference - to me, marriage will always be lesser as it's founded in religion. Not having the the same choices is not equality now, is it?

    Dude, marriage hasn't been about religion for decades. Even the church marriages I've been to were populated by people who couldn't give a single fuck about Baby Jesus or his old man.

    And a civil marriage doesn't have to go anywhere near any religion anyway.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #42 - February 12, 2013, 11:58 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on February 12, 2013, 11:55 PM
    But the legalities are only one small facet of marriage (and the least important part to most people I know). If you're only focusing on that, then it does look like a very sterile and formal thing. When you consider everything else involved, it's a much more exciting and celebratory occasion.


    Yeah but why is the legal aspect of it needed at all if it's mostly about celebrating love? Why not celebrate love (whether straight or LG, etc.) and take the State's role out? That's my point. I see definitely the celebratory aspect, that's good (the wedding anyway, marriage/LTR is actually HARD work, not always that celebratory). What my point is, why should the government mandate who I can and can not fuck?
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #43 - February 13, 2013, 12:02 AM
    The gummint doesn't mandate who you can and cannot fuck. Married people fuck around all the time.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #44 - February 13, 2013, 12:03 AM
    Quote from: allat on February 12, 2013, 11:58 PM
    What my point is, why should the government mandate who I can and can not fuck?

    You don't have to get married. Nor do you have to marry someone who'll involve the government if you're unfaithful.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #45 - February 13, 2013, 12:05 AM
    Quote from: Ishina on February 12, 2013, 11:57 PM
    Dude, marriage hasn't been about religion for decades. Even the church marriages I've been to were populated by people who couldn't give a single fuck about Baby Jesus or his old man.

    And a civil marriage doesn't have to go anywhere near any religion anyway.


    The fact that it is marriage itself is what gives it it's religious heritage for me, that's why I wanted a partnership, not a marriage, and surely that choice should be equally available to all?

    And, I don't really care about whether other people believe in god or jesus or whatever when they get married, it's not about them, it's about me! If I'm going to have a partnership/marriage/whatever, surely it's about whatever me & the other person think, want & believe?

  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #46 - February 13, 2013, 12:06 AM
    Quote from: allat on February 12, 2013, 11:58 PM
    Yeah but why is the legal aspect of it needed at all if it's mostly about celebrating love? Why not celebrate love (whether straight or LG, etc.) and take the State's role out? That's my point. I see definitely the celebratory aspect, that's good (the wedding anyway, marriage/LTR is actually HARD work, not always that celebratory).


    I wholeheartedly agree
  • Re: Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #47 - February 13, 2013, 12:08 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on February 13, 2013, 12:02 AM
    The gummint doesn't mandate who you can and cannot fuck. Married people fuck around all the time.


    Yeah and they get into serious legal trouble for it. The state enforces monogamy through marriage.

    Quote from: Ishina on February 13, 2013, 12:03 AM
    You don't have to get married. Nor do you have to marry someone who'll involve the government if you're unfaithful.


    Yeah that's contentious though as the person can always change their mind and blackmail you later. The govt still has the power over your genitals.

    Anyway, where I live, straights and gays have full and equal rights both via marriage and via conjugal partnerships (cohabitation), so this is really not something that affects me personally where I am. There is STILL an enforcement of mandatory monogamy on conjugal relationships, legally speaking. This is probably going to become a more prominent legal issue here at least in the next 10 years as more people (straights, LG and B and T too) are questioning things this way.

    I'm thinking, within our lifetimes, govt will be as optional to LTRs as religion is now.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #48 - February 13, 2013, 12:08 AM
    Quote from: Amsterdamned on February 13, 2013, 12:05 AM
    The fact that it is marriage itself is what gives it it's religious heritage for me, that's why I wanted a partnership, not a marriage, and surely that choice should be equally available to all?

    And, I don't really care about whether other people believe in god or jesus or whatever when they get married, it's not about them, it's about me! If I'm going to have a partnership/marriage/whatever, surely it's about whatever me & the other person think, want & believe?

    Once more: civil marriage has nothing to do with religion.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #49 - February 13, 2013, 12:11 AM
    Quote from: allat on February 13, 2013, 12:08 AM
    Yeah that's contentious though as the person can always change their mind and blackmail you later. The govt still has the power over your genitals.

    It doesn't look like the government ever got around to telling the British people they have given up control over their genitals.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #50 - February 13, 2013, 12:14 AM
    Quote from: Ishina on February 13, 2013, 12:11 AM
    It doesn't look like the government ever got around to telling the British people they have given up control over their genitals.


    What? Grin It's not about the British people only. I'm talking about marriage in general. It's a contract with the STATE, not with your partner. Marriage (LEGAL marriage) IS about telling the State that you consent to remain "faithful" (i.e. have exclusive sexual relations with) only this ONE person.

    If you break that contract, the State penalizes you. Hence, the State controls who you are allowed to fuck if you enter into marriage.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #51 - February 13, 2013, 12:15 AM
    Marriage as a concept & an institution has its roots in religion. You saying & deciding it doesn't have anything to do with religion doesn't change its history or meaning in society!

    Partnership simply, doesn't.

    Once more, therefore I want partnership & not marriage. Whether or not I am LGBTQ or P, and committing to a man or woman, shouldn't make a difference, I should have that choice as a supposedly informed & autonomous human.

    If I was to commit next time to a woman, I could have a partnership, but not if I was to commit to a man. That in itself is illogical, considering I'm bisexual, there should be no difference - equality of opportunity & choice.



  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #52 - February 13, 2013, 12:18 AM
    Quote from: allat on February 13, 2013, 12:14 AM
    What? Grin It's not about the British people only. I'm talking about marriage in general. It's a contract with the STATE, not with your partner. Marriage (LEGAL marriage) IS about telling the State that you consent to remain "faithful" (i.e. have exclusive sexual relations with) only this ONE person.

    If you break that contract, the State penalizes you. Hence, the State controls who you are allowed to fuck if you enter into marriage.

    But the story is very very different in practice.

    And its kind of a mischaracterisation of things anyway. It's the individuals who are entering into marriage that are controlling who each other can fuck.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #53 - February 13, 2013, 12:19 AM
    Quote from: allat on February 13, 2013, 12:08 AM
    Yeah and they get into serious legal trouble for it. The state enforces monogamy through marriage.

    Not really. What happens is that if you are married to someone, they can enforce legal trouble at their discretion. The state, in reality, doesn't much care as long as the people in the marriage don't care either.

    Talking about liberal democracies here, of course.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #54 - February 13, 2013, 12:20 AM
    How does the State penalise you if you commit adultery?  (Assuming we're talking about Britain here and not Saudi Arabia).
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #55 - February 13, 2013, 12:21 AM
    It sets Allat on yer ass, and then you're really fucked. Cheesy
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #56 - February 13, 2013, 12:22 AM
    Quote from: Ishina on February 13, 2013, 12:08 AM
    Once more: civil marriage has nothing to do with religion.


    Well, marriage is rooted in religion, but heck, everything is, if you look far enough.

    Anyway, I agree with equality. I just don't think this is it. There's a lot more progress that is needed.

    In Canada, e.g. SSM hasn't changed much. Actually, the idea of SSM started over a divorce case. Two women who'd been cohabitating broke up after many years. One of them sued the other for alimony but since they weren't married, she didn't get anything. She took it to the Supreme Court and won. Supreme Court said, LG people have the right to seek alimony hence they should have the right to marry.

    So, here, as in the US too, the fight for SSM is closely connected to divorce and property rights.

    The romantic aspect of it is the sizzle it's sold with. Marriage is a lucrative industry. Divorce is even more so.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #57 - February 13, 2013, 12:26 AM
    Quote from: Amsterdamned on February 13, 2013, 12:15 AM
    Marriage as a concept & an institution has its roots in religion. You saying & deciding it doesn't have anything to do with religion doesn't change its history or meaning in society!

    So does Sunday. But nobody has an existential crisis when the word is used in casual conversation.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #58 - February 13, 2013, 12:26 AM
    Quote from: allat on February 13, 2013, 12:22 AM
    Anyway, I agree with equality. I just don't think this is it. There's a lot more progress that is needed.

    Show me one sane person who has claimed that SSM = total equality in all fields.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Gay Marriage Bill Passes
     Reply #59 - February 13, 2013, 12:27 AM
    Quote from: Ishina on February 13, 2013, 12:26 AM
    So does Sunday. But nobody has an existential crisis when the word is used in casual conversation.

     Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
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