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 Topic: Did you ever feel there is a sort of idolatry in Islam?

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  • Did you ever feel there is a sort of idolatry in Islam?
     OP - February 13, 2013, 09:51 PM
    I can't ask to any Muslims since they'd get furious at me, but I'm curious to know.

    One of Islam's mains teachings is not to associate anything to God and not to do idolatry. That is in theory, but in practice, a Muslim has to believe in the "perfection" of the quran as a book and a guide to mankind and believe in the "perfection" of Muhammad as a man - yet only God is perfect. Seems a bit contradictory to me.

    Anyways, what do you think? Does this resemble idolatry or not? When you were a Muslim did you ever feel like you/your friends/your family/other Muslims you know "idolized" the quran or the prophet?
    If the abrahamic god judged himself according to his own moral standards, he'd go to hell.

    He's jealous, full of pride, he created evil, he doesn't heal sick people while he could, he's attacking people who are weaker than him, he follows his own desires and he commits murders all the time.
  • Did you ever feel there is a sort of idolatry in Islam?
     Reply #1 - February 13, 2013, 09:54 PM
    Yes. Muhammad is virtually idol worshipped in Islam.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Did you ever feel there is a sort of idolatry in Islam?
     Reply #2 - February 13, 2013, 09:57 PM
    If the overzealous reverence of Prophet Muhammad (Salla Walla Falla) is not worship, I don't know what is.


    Also, sufi sects of Islam revere their pirs intensely too, which would count as worship, IMO.
    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Did you ever feel there is a sort of idolatry in Islam?
     Reply #3 - February 13, 2013, 10:02 PM
    Yeah I find it odd how Salafis will totally freak about Sufis worshipping Sufi saints, but are still perfectly happy to worship Mohammed themselves.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Did you ever feel there is a sort of idolatry in Islam?
     Reply #4 - February 13, 2013, 10:05 PM
    billy and ateapotist, I see. This is the impression I get too, even though Muslims never dare to admit it and get furious to anyone who points this out. They claim that all prophets are equal yet the quran tells them to obey Allah and his messenger, referring to Muhammad as "the" messenger.
    If the abrahamic god judged himself according to his own moral standards, he'd go to hell.

    He's jealous, full of pride, he created evil, he doesn't heal sick people while he could, he's attacking people who are weaker than him, he follows his own desires and he commits murders all the time.
  • Did you ever feel there is a sort of idolatry in Islam?
     Reply #5 - February 13, 2013, 10:22 PM
    Quote from: billy on February 13, 2013, 09:54 PM
    Yes. Muhammad is virtually idol worshipped in Islam.



    For all practical purposes, Muhammad IS Allah. The two are virtually indistinguishable. From a Muslim’s standpoint, how would you ever know if Muhammad ever told you to do something that Allah did not want you to do? You couldn’t. They are one and the same. It was kinda like Edward Norton and Brad Pitt in Fight Club.

    If you take the opinion that Muhammad was a real figure, which I do, then it is interesting to see how Muhammad merged himself with Allah. “Whoever obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah.” Verily, those who gave fealty to thee under the tree, they gave fealty to Allah. Allah’s hand was over their hands” “And obey Allah and his messenger” “And you did not throw (oh Muhammad) when you threw, but Allah threw” “They ask thee about the spoils of war, say ‘The spoils of war are for Allah and the Messenger.’” And there are countless ahadith where the companions would say “Allah and his messenger know best.”

    While Allah was completely silent, MIA, away on vacation, Muhammad was the only one able to speak on his behalf. He could have said whatever he wanted, and since Allah wasn’t speaking up, no one would have had a clue.
  • Did you ever feel there is a sort of idolatry in Islam?
     Reply #6 - February 13, 2013, 10:24 PM
    as much as i would love to agree, no, they don't worship. They only obey him because according to to them he is allahs final messenger. Blindly follow would be a better term.
  • Did you ever feel there is a sort of idolatry in Islam?
     Reply #7 - February 13, 2013, 10:25 PM
    From a neutral and practical view though, he is in essence "worshipped"
  • Did you ever feel there is a sort of idolatry in Islam?
     Reply #8 - February 13, 2013, 11:08 PM
    There are plenty of sects that do worship Muhammad in the traditional sense of the word. At his tomb, you will constantly hear prayers directed towards him. I even saw with my own two eyes people falling prostrate before his tomb.

    The salafis, who claim not to “worship” Muhammad directly, do set him up as the de facto lord. As I said above, Allah is MIA. The ONLY one who can speak on his behalf is Muhammad. Thus, Muhammad had the same power and control over people that Allah had. Since Allah did not exist in any real fashion, even for early Muslims, Muhammad was all there was. His commands were the commands of God. The words that came out of his mouth were the words of God. His desires were the desires of God, etc. Eventually, you have to com to the conclusion that for all practical purpose, he was God.
  • Did you ever feel there is a sort of idolatry in Islam?
     Reply #9 - February 13, 2013, 11:16 PM
    Allah, Mo, Quran.  A trinity?  Nah! 
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Did you ever feel there is a sort of idolatry in Islam?
     Reply #10 - February 13, 2013, 11:20 PM
    Quote
    JUNG ON THE TRINITY

    For Jung the doctrine of the Trinity is replete with psychological meaning. The Father symbolizes the psyche in its original undifferentiated wholeness. The Son represents the human psyche and the Holy spirit the state of self-critical submission to a higher reality.

    Not surprisingly Jung found similar Trinitarian ideas in the Babylonian, Egyptian and Greek mystical traditions. However, he believed in a quaternity, the fourth person being the principle of evil: without the opposition of Satan, who is one of God's sons, the Trinity would have remained a unity. In Jungian terms, without the opposition of the shadow (the "fourth" person) there would be no psychic development and no actualisation of the self.

    Jung perceived the dogma of the Assumption as the Church's attempt to create a quaternity without shadow, without evil, for the devil had been excluded. The Gnostic Jung, however, believed that the principle of evil had in fact been introduced into the Trinity by the material presence of the Mother of God. From a Gnostic perspective, Mary becomes a diabolical presence, the maternal darkness, within the Trinity.


    http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/churpsyc/cgjung.html
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Did you ever feel there is a sort of idolatry in Islam?
     Reply #11 - February 13, 2013, 11:26 PM
    Yep. This was pretty clear to me too very early on, way before I left Islam.

    Muslims pretty much idolize Muhammad. Each sect does it differently, some express it one way, others express it another way. Furthermore, some (Shias) idolize Muhammad's family members, while Sunnis idolize Aisha and Muhammad's companions.

    But the whole idea that Muhammad is supposed to be the "perfect" man and that you're supposed to "love" him more than you love your children etc. all point to this fact.

    Of course Muslims will NEVER admit it. In fact, by not admitting it, they feel they can idolize him and virtually worship him without thinking that they're doing that.

    Quote from: happymurtad on February 13, 2013, 11:08 PM
    The salafis, who claim not to “worship” Muhammad directly, do set him up as the de facto lord. As I said above, Allah is MIA. The ONLY one who can speak on his behalf is Muhammad. Thus, Muhammad had the same power and control over people that Allah had. Since Allah did not exist in any real fashion, even for early Muslims, Muhammad was all there was. His commands were the commands of God. The words that came out of his mouth were the words of God. His desires were the desires of God, etc. Eventually, you have to com to the conclusion that for all practical purpose, he was God.


    ^ Very well put.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Did you ever feel there is a sort of idolatry in Islam?
     Reply #12 - February 13, 2013, 11:32 PM
    The oddity of the deification of Muhammad was definitely a starting point for my apostasy. There was something so unnerving about offering that much praise to one man before doing the same for te entity that is assumed to be the creator, all-powerful and knowing in his supposed existence. That Muhammad is considered on par with Allah in all his importance should be considered non-sensical, at least as much as could possibly be considered within the intellectual vacuum that Islam is in itself, anyway.

    The point of anthropomorphizing the Quran and its scripture is a little creepy, too, with Muslims ranting on and on about the Quran says, does or doesn't do in relation to the practitioners of the religion or in regards to how vile disbelievers are.
    "I know where I'm going and I know the truth, and I don't have to be what you want me to be. I'm free to be what I want."
    Muhammad Ali
  • Did you ever feel there is a sort of idolatry in Islam?
     Reply #13 - February 13, 2013, 11:32 PM
    Quote
    Of course Muslims will NEVER admit it. In fact, by not admitting it, they feel they can idolize him and virtually worship him without thinking that they're doing that.

    To my mind this is much like the Catholic attitude to their saints. They'll swear on the Bible that they're not idolatrous polytheists, yet in practice their behaviour is indistinguishable from idolatrous polytheists.

    They claim that they don't really worship statues, but the concept that the statue represents. This is precisely the same as the religions that, according to Catholics, are idolatrous. grin12

    They'll claim that they only believe in one god (and for argument's sake I'm happy to call the Trinity one god) but they have all these other entities that are, effectively, lesser deities. They're immortal. They have magical powers of intercession, in the real world and/or with the ruling deity. They're not really any different from the lesser entities in many polytheistic pantheons, except in name.

    It's always great popcorn to try and explain this to a Catholic. They get quite animated about it all.  parrot
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Did you ever feel there is a sort of idolatry in Islam?
     Reply #14 - February 14, 2013, 12:05 AM
    Quote from: happymurtad on February 13, 2013, 10:22 PM
    For all practical purposes, Muhammad IS Allah. The two are virtually indistinguishable. From a Muslim’s standpoint, how would you ever know if Muhammad ever told you to do something that Allah did not want you to do? You couldn’t. They are one and the same. It was kinda like Edward Norton and Brad Pitt in Fight Club.

    This is a good point. I asked to a few Muslims "What if Muhammad was wrong? How do you know he never made a mistake in his prophet's career?". The answers were always one of the followings:
    - God couldn't have choose a man who would make mistakes in his revelation. Thus, God knew that Muhammad would make mistakes in every other domains except for his career as a prophet. Muhammad couldn't have failed to deliver the message clearly and without introduce his own desires. (Yea right, God certainly wanted him to be privileged and have the right to marry more than 4 wives.  Roll Eyes )
    - If Muhammad did a mistake in his career as a prophet, God would correct him, e.g. in quran 80:11 God corrected one act of the prophet, telling him not to do it again. This is a miracle and a proof that Muhammad is a true prophet of God! (Like if any human being couldn't just realize his own mistakes and correct them...)

    Quote from: happymurtad on February 13, 2013, 11:08 PM
    There are plenty of sects that do worship Muhammad in the traditional sense of the word. At his tomb, you will constantly hear prayers directed towards him. I even saw with my own two eyes people falling prostrate before his tomb.

    This makes me remember that according to some it is recommended to visit Muhammad's tomb, which seems to be basically a huge monument full of gold. Is this really the tomb of Muhammad..? Some Muslims say it's not and that Muhammad was buried modestly under a simple block (as those you see in any cemetery).

    Quote from: moi on February 13, 2013, 11:16 PM
    Allah, Mo, Quran.  A trinity?  Nah!  

    Cheesy
    If the abrahamic god judged himself according to his own moral standards, he'd go to hell.

    He's jealous, full of pride, he created evil, he doesn't heal sick people while he could, he's attacking people who are weaker than him, he follows his own desires and he commits murders all the time.
  • Did you ever feel there is a sort of idolatry in Islam?
     Reply #15 - February 14, 2013, 12:13 AM

    "Is this really the tomb of Muhammad..?"
     
    Yep, that’s it. See the big bearded guy with the picnic cloth on his head? He is a wahhabi guard whose sole job is to make sure that people DON’T pray to Muhammad. Interestingly enough, he obeys every single word that Muhammad says, as though it were the word of God, from his huge beard, to his trimmed mustache, to his short thobe. 

    Granted, if the wahhabis could, they would destroy the tomb and just leave it as a dirt lot outside the mosque. That is what they did with the adjacent cemetery that used to contain the mausoleums and tombs of Muhammad’s wives and companions.
  • Did you ever feel there is a sort of idolatry in Islam?
     Reply #16 - February 14, 2013, 12:17 AM
    "God couldn't have choose a man who would make mistakes in his revelation. Thus, God knew that Muhammad would make mistakes in every other domains except for his career as a prophet."

    Of course God would have known that, but how could we know? How could we ever know if Muhammad just went rogue and started making up his own revelations. He is the ONLY contact from God that we have. God never gave us a memo before he went on vacation that said "Hey guys, I'm gonna be gone for a few thousand years, so Mo's in charge. Whatever he says goes." We just have to take Muhammad's word for it.

    Given his track record of abysmal morality, I see no reason to trust him.
  • Did you ever feel there is a sort of idolatry in Islam?
     Reply #17 - February 14, 2013, 12:22 AM
    Based on what you all said, it seems like the innate nature of mankind is not the inner belief and worship of One God as Muslims claim. The innate nature of mankind is the polytheism.  yes

    happymurtad: I see. That's so crazy... When I see stuff like that I wonder why the fuck did people spent their money to built such monuments when they could have spend it for useful purposes. But of course to please God by honoring his so-called messenger is much more important then anything else...
    If the abrahamic god judged himself according to his own moral standards, he'd go to hell.

    He's jealous, full of pride, he created evil, he doesn't heal sick people while he could, he's attacking people who are weaker than him, he follows his own desires and he commits murders all the time.
  • Did you ever feel there is a sort of idolatry in Islam?
     Reply #18 - February 14, 2013, 12:26 AM
    Quote from: happymurtad on February 14, 2013, 12:17 AM
    "God couldn't have choose a man who would make mistakes in his revelation. Thus, God knew that Muhammad would make mistakes in every other domains except for his career as a prophet."

    Of course God would have known that, but how could we know? How could we ever know if Muhammad just went rogue and started making up his own revelations. He is the ONLY contact from God that we have. God never gave us a memo before he went on vacation that said "Hey guys, I'm gonna be gone for a few thousand years, so Mo's in charge. Whatever he says goes." We just have to take Muhammad's word for it.

    Given his track record of abysmal morality, I see no reason to trust him.

    Oh man, did you forget that Muhammad splitted the moon in two? Cheesy
    If the abrahamic god judged himself according to his own moral standards, he'd go to hell.

    He's jealous, full of pride, he created evil, he doesn't heal sick people while he could, he's attacking people who are weaker than him, he follows his own desires and he commits murders all the time.
  • Did you ever feel there is a sort of idolatry in Islam?
     Reply #19 - February 14, 2013, 12:29 AM
    Yeah, that rendition of the tomb was built by the Turks in the Ottoman era. Secretly, I always likes the older (Ottoman) part of the Mosque better than the Saudi portion. The architecture is more skillful and you feel more like you are in a historical place. It’s not as imposing as that youtube video makes it seem (or maybe I had just gotten used to it), but I honestly thought it was kinda cool.
  • Did you ever feel there is a sort of idolatry in Islam?
     Reply #20 - February 14, 2013, 12:32 AM
    That's one thing that does bug me a little bit. Islamic architecture (or the best of it) used to be gorgeous. These days, most of it is just trashy.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Did you ever feel there is a sort of idolatry in Islam?
     Reply #21 - February 14, 2013, 12:37 AM
    Yeah I would definitely recommend a trip to Istanbul to see all the Ottoman architecture. Mimar Sinan was clearly amazing at his craft. It's sad that that is a dying art form.
  • Did you ever feel there is a sort of idolatry in Islam?
     Reply #22 - February 14, 2013, 12:47 AM
    Istanbul? They just nicked all the Byzantine stuff there. grin12
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Did you ever feel there is a sort of idolatry in Islam?
     Reply #23 - February 14, 2013, 01:19 AM
    They nicked it well though
  • Did you ever feel there is a sort of idolatry in Islam?
     Reply #24 - February 14, 2013, 02:50 AM
    Shia Islam - yeah definitely.

    From the outside, you can clearly see people in Karbala wiping their clothes and faces on the entry doors and making duaa, throwing letters and stashes of money into the grave, and all that shizzle.
    When you ask why, the explanation is umm..interesting: Allah is too direct for us to ask, so we ask Hussein to ask Mohammed to ask Allah.
    And the lower ranking the "saint" the better in terms of being confident to ask for more. They do not see it as idolatry.

    (The problem is that through this process, they have completely idolised the prophet's family, forgetting everything else. My small cousins didn't even know who the prophet is Islam was when I asked.)

    It's dumb...Allah is your god, he created you, he's the most kind, the all hearing right...why so shy to ask him for shit?
    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Did you ever feel there is a sort of idolatry in Islam?
     Reply #25 - February 14, 2013, 02:58 AM
    sunnah.
  • Did you ever feel there is a sort of idolatry in Islam?
     Reply #26 - February 14, 2013, 07:04 AM
    If we are all polytheists, why the hatred between Muslims and Hindus? 

    (Our Dyson vacuum corner sits in a corner and does look like a god!)
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Did you ever feel there is a sort of idolatry in Islam?
     Reply #27 - February 14, 2013, 07:15 AM
    Life of Pi has a wondrous subplot in which Pi is a Muslim, Hindu and Christian at the same time!

    Christianity was extremely nasty against the followers of the true gods.

    It is as if monotheisms are inherently psychologically dangerous, evangelical, imperial.

    Not saying humans are inherently good, just that imposing order on the gods by having a central most high one has side effects.

    Why is idolatry a sin if it is natural?
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Did you ever feel there is a sort of idolatry in Islam?
     Reply #28 - February 14, 2013, 03:38 PM
    Jila:
    Interesting. It's funny how they do exactly what they reproach to other religions. (Well, on the other hand, some Sunnis say that Shia are kouffar or even satanists lol..!)

    moi:
    Good questions. I think Muslims hate Hinduism because even if some Muslims do things that resemble idolatry, they won't admit it.

    Quote
    It is as if monotheisms are inherently psychologically dangerous, evangelical, imperial.

    That's the impression I get. We all know what happened when Christianity tried to impose itself over the world. Now Islam is trying to impose itself too, and if it doesn't work pacifically, it imposes itself violently. Only Judaism doesn't seem to have the will to impose itself in every nation, and I think it's because Jews are the "chosen people".

    Quote
    Why is idolatry a sin if it is natural?

    I don't know much about the history of religions etc. But maybe the prophets condemned idolatry because it was easier to have people submit to an All-Mighty god. This god is more powerful than any god would be in a polytheist cult, thus people are more afraid of this god and submit more to "his" will (i.e. the orders of the prophets). This is my opinion from a disbeliever point of view.
    If the abrahamic god judged himself according to his own moral standards, he'd go to hell.

    He's jealous, full of pride, he created evil, he doesn't heal sick people while he could, he's attacking people who are weaker than him, he follows his own desires and he commits murders all the time.
  • Did you ever feel there is a sort of idolatry in Islam?
     Reply #29 - February 14, 2013, 03:53 PM
    The quasi-worship of the messenger of Islam is what initailly made me turn to quran only. In the brelvi school there is the darood/supplication that all are taught, in which it says 'maulana mohammed', if my arabic is up to scratch means 'our master' mohammed. This got the alarm bells ringing because I considered God to be the only master. Also there is a situation in the indian subcontinent of saints/pirs, where tombs are flocked to offer prayers to the saints.

    I know the dawat-e-islami teach that the prophet can hear us and we can offer prayers through him. Theres also the standard belief that mohammed was perfect.

    All this really does make a case for Muslim essentially deifying mohammed, Muslim obviously get offended because they go to great lengths to state they are the only religion where there is strictly no idol worship.
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