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Theme Changer

 Topic: Languages

 (Read 7311 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Languages
     OP - February 18, 2013, 11:21 AM

    Is there any correlation between how religious family members are and how fluent they are in different languages?

    I think it is correct that you are fluent in a language when you dream in it.

    Coming to a different country is a huge emotional burden, learning a new language is even more so.  I understand some families actually have real difficulty talking with their children because the children are learning English at school, the parents are not that literate in English and a further confusion is thrown in by the old arabic of the quran, which is not modern arabic - bit like me using "thou" and gadzooks!

    It would seem to be predictable that people experiencing these tensions would cling on to what they know - Islam.

    Are not people who are fluent in more than one language actually developing different personalities?  So conflicts would occur with others because it is not obvious to another who you are - someone from the old country, someone from the new country,  or both.

    This cannot help but to cause real issues about how Muslim someone is.  Because the fact that you are speaking English automatically makes you kaffir.


    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Languages
     Reply #1 - February 18, 2013, 01:09 PM

    My mother speaks three languages (French and English being among the three) very fluently. Didn't stop her from being very religious.

    He's no friend to the friendless
    And he's the mother of grief
    There's only sorrow for tomorrow
    Surely life is too brief
  • Languages
     Reply #2 - February 18, 2013, 02:32 PM

    I got no idea, I currently speak 5 languages and i am learning German for the moment who is gonna be my 6th language, both of my parents speak 3 languages, they are not that religious, my mother is a bit religious and superstitious but that is nothing when I compare her to really religious people I know.

  • Languages
     Reply #3 - February 18, 2013, 04:03 PM

    Are not people who are fluent in more than one language actually developing different personalities?  So conflicts would occur with others because it is not obvious to another who you are - someone from the old country, someone from the new country,  or both.

    I wouldn't say different personalities, but I would say someone who speaks more than one language develops different "cultures" i.e ways of thinking and ways of viewing the world. Because each language carry its own way of viewing things, e.g. in Russian there is two different words for light blue and dark blue, so they consider those to be two different colors instead of two tones of the same color. Just like in English we have two different words for pink and red, therefore we consider those to be two different colors yet in reality they could be just two tones of the same color...
    I admit I could produce an whole essay about that (and I actually did in one of my English classes when the subject was free Grin). I speak French and English, I'm learning Spanish and I study in languages. So yea, this is a subject which I find fascinating. Tongue

    To answer your question, I think you could consider it the other way. Let's take a Muslim convert as an example. This convert doesn't speak Arabic at all. Then he becomes more and more devout. He becomes very religious. His religiousness might be an important motivation factor to learn Arabic.  Wink Yet of course, there are plenty of other factors that matter in order to be a good language learner and become fluent in a language, so religion is just one of those factors in that case.

    However, I don't think there is a correlation in the other sense (i.e. a Muslim who speaks Arabic and want to learn another language), because speaking another language is not an obstacle to religiousness whilst in the first case speaking Arabic could be considered an important part of being religious (to read the quran in its original language for example).

    If the abrahamic god judged himself according to his own moral standards, he'd go to hell.

    He's jealous, full of pride, he created evil, he doesn't heal sick people while he could, he's attacking people who are weaker than him, he follows his own desires and he commits murders all the time.
  • Languages
     Reply #4 - February 18, 2013, 06:26 PM

    I think it is correct that you are fluent in a language when you dream in it.

    I started dreaming in English quite recently...
    Weird experience!

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Languages
     Reply #5 - February 23, 2013, 12:39 PM

    There was a post here about a BBC documentary in Saudi Arabia.  The lead guy I understand might be a future king of Saudi Arabia, and he was fluent in English and Arabic - I think he went to UK Public School. 

    I thought he was continually wrestling with two very different worlds and was actually happiest being Western and when out hunting with his hawks - neither of which are that religious behaviours.

    I felt he was struggling to make Islam fit, he was pro science but anti art, an impossible game to play when the reality is as they have in Venice - an academy of science, literature and art!

    I am possibly rambling, but I think it is important to be aware that Islam seems to set up a theoretical world, with strange rules to follow, with its own language.  The reality is muddled with people experiencing blue differently, very fluid and not at all fixed. 

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Languages
     Reply #6 - February 24, 2013, 05:48 AM

    Quote
    I am possibly rambling, but I think it is important to be aware that Islam seems to set up a theoretical world, with strange rules to follow, with its own language.

    Never thought about it like that, but I see it now that you said it.

    I saw that doco too and I felt really annoyed when he implied art was a waste of time <_<

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Languages
     Reply #7 - February 15, 2015, 11:52 AM

    I think it is correct that you are fluent in a language when you dream in it.


    My interpretation of fluency is that you don't have to exactly know a word, but know enough of the language to describe the word that you want to use.




    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Languages
     Reply #8 - February 24, 2015, 09:13 PM

    People who are bilingual/multilingual likely come from other countries like Iraq, Portugal, etc where religion is taken more seriously in general. So it is more a correlative factor. Though I can't think of any real reason for it to hold.

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Languages
     Reply #9 - February 24, 2015, 09:38 PM

    Sorry, for what to hold?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Languages
     Reply #10 - February 24, 2015, 09:57 PM

    He suggested a positive correlation between religiosity and language ability.

    This supposed correlation is speculative, it could be very well be due to other variables that one hasn't accounted for. For instance, education levels.

    Then again, I could argue that the aforementioned may function as a confounding variable.




    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Languages
     Reply #11 - February 24, 2015, 10:33 PM

    I said the above speculatively - correlation does not imply causation here. Ie multilingualism does not increase religiosity, rather there is a higher chance if someone is multilingual that they come from a country outside of a monolingual country and thus likely come from a country where religion is more strongly upheld. Such an effect was observed in India, for instance as outlined in "Studies in Multilingualism". Similarly a study was posed in "The Routledge Handbook of Multilingualism" with regards to a link between multilingualism and education. A function does not necessarily need to be of a single variable, of the form y = f(x), we can have functions of the form z = f(x,y), etc. and holding one variable fixed, another may still correlate. e.g. z = y.x^2 for x,y > 0 will be an increasing function whether we fix y > 0 or x > 0.

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Languages
     Reply #12 - February 24, 2015, 10:36 PM

    Though if you were to say which has the dominant effect between all the different variables, then you are speaking about relative measures and saying it so arbitrarily is not the way to about it and more rigour is then required.

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Languages
     Reply #13 - February 24, 2015, 10:45 PM

    Just to elaborate,  if we want to talk about causation, I can argue that if one wants to run a test between just the two variables in question, an obvious issue would be along the lines of omitted variable bias.

    Edit: realised that PhysMath was replying to moi, not me, I think.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Languages
     Reply #14 - February 24, 2015, 11:09 PM

    Yeah though sorta addresses your point too. I see your point too though Qtian.

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Languages
     Reply #15 - February 24, 2015, 11:16 PM

    I saw that, but I don't see where I was implying that a function has to necessarily be of one variable, because it doesn't  Tongue

    Rather, I was trying to keep my post in line with moi's question where there seems to be two variables in question. The obvious measure would then be along the lines of the product moment correlation coefficient.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Languages
     Reply #16 - February 24, 2015, 11:26 PM

    Ah, just re read the first part of your second post. I see what you meant now.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Languages
     Reply #17 - February 25, 2015, 08:27 AM

    The beginning Urdu lessons have highlighted something for me.  I propose the languages one is multi lingual in have a huge effect on my op hypothesis.

    What do I meann?

    I propose Urdu - and Somali - although not based on Arabic - are so infused with Islamic assumptions that learning them does not actually expose someone to different world views and ways of thinking.

    So it is very important to ask what languages are we discussing and what are the predominant cultures used?

    Actually, maybe the Indian sub continent is a very important test of this idea.  Does language correlate with religion?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Languages
     Reply #18 - February 25, 2015, 08:35 AM

    It is quite simple!  If you have learned English, you are kaffir!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Languages
     Reply #19 - February 25, 2015, 12:28 PM

    The beginning Urdu lessons have highlighted something for me.  I propose the languages one is multi lingual in have a huge effect on my op hypothesis.

    What do I meann?

    I propose Urdu - and Somali - although not based on Arabic - are so infused with Islamic assumptions that learning them does not actually expose someone to different world views and ways of thinking.

    So it is very important to ask what languages are we discussing and what are the predominant cultures used?

    Actually, maybe the Indian sub continent is a very important test of this idea.  Does language correlate with religion?


    Language isn't Islamic, the terminology which one day employs is. Language is just a means for communicating. It is like how people say "thank God" even when they are atheist.

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Languages
     Reply #20 - February 25, 2015, 02:59 PM

    The Sapir-Whorph hypothesis proposes that language comes with a set world view and values. Or rather, that language affects and influences how we see the world around us. As a multilingual person myself, I definitely believe that language affects your way of thinking about the world or how you percieve it. Being multilingual also exposes you to that fact. Arabic, for example, is very much drenched in Islamic terminology and world view. That doesn't necessarily mean you are religious because of it. Rather, I think it's near impossible to erase Islamic/Muslim influence in culture and world perception.

    Something I've always thought is that certain jokes, way of joking and being humorous, as well as mentality and culture in general, is very much connected with the language.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Languages
     Reply #21 - February 25, 2015, 04:47 PM

    So I am correct!  Any Muslim who has learnt English or anything other than koranic Arabic (a dead language?) is automatically an Apostate - there are therefore no Muslims!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Languages
     Reply #22 - February 25, 2015, 04:52 PM

    It is quite simple!  If you have learned English, you are kaffir!


    So what's your excuse?
  • Languages
     Reply #23 - February 25, 2015, 05:36 PM

    It is my first language!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Languages
     Reply #24 - February 25, 2015, 05:54 PM

    So I am correct!  Any Muslim who has learnt English or anything other than koranic Arabic (a dead language?) is automatically an Apostate - there are therefore no Muslims!


    Uhm... no???

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Languages
     Reply #25 - February 25, 2015, 06:16 PM


    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Languages
     Reply #26 - February 25, 2015, 08:17 PM

    I should use more emos in my posts!

    Interestingly I think it is arguable that there are no muslims because no one can understand the koran - if they did why are there any arguments about its meaning?  Why the hadith etc to explain anything!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Languages
     Reply #27 - February 25, 2015, 11:56 PM

    nevzeth kethava d-Thackston, l-leshana Suryaya
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