Jewish Plot

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- k-man
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Reply #30 - February 27, 2013, 07:51 PM

@happymurtad i gotcha.

Quote
I think Tony is on to something as well. This is the kind of stuff that really interests me about the emergence of Islam. I wish there were more dated texts that we could use to reference. The Islamic texts such as the hadith and Ibn Ishaaq are obviously from many years later.

I agree, maybe one day somebody will dig up abu sufyans diary before muhammad took mecca explaining the arab pagans point of view. That would be a goldmine.

One more thing Happymurtad, i was in a discussion with a muslim about the verse in tauba and he told me that Qaatalahummulah means allah happens to kill them and that the word was in the past tense, with out the word may being used.
Is that true?
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Reply #31 - February 27, 2013, 07:57 PM

On a side note, Surah Taubah is a remarkably unpleasant surah to read without your magic Islamic glasses.

9:10 They do not observe toward a believer any pact of kinship or covenant of protection. And it is they who are the transgressors.

So what now when the tables are turned? Would a believer respect a pact of kinship against an apostate? Such hypocrisy!
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Reply #32 - February 27, 2013, 08:04 PM

Quote from: k-man on February 27, 2013, 07:51 PM
@happymurtad i gotcha.

One more thing Happymurtad, i was in a discussion with a muslim about the verse in tauba and he told me that Qaatalahummulah means allah happens to kill them and that the word was in the past tense, with out the word may being used.
Is that true?

Oh that is a pathetic display of misunderstanding. In Arabic (I know this may be a bit confusing, but anyway) the past tense can be used in order to show prophecy or a desire. If you look at many of the verses that describe the Day of Judgment in Arabic for example, the past tense is used to discuss things that are obviously in the future. (The last part of surah zummar comes to mind right now.) Also, phrases like “‘Afa-llahu ‘anka” or “Ghafara-llahu laka” or “Rahimaka-llah” are understood to mean “May Allah pardon you.” “May allah forgive you” “may Allah have mercy on you”. They are things that we desire to happen, not things that definitely have happened.
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Reply #33 - February 27, 2013, 08:16 PM

Thanks Happymurtad
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Reply #34 - February 27, 2013, 09:31 PM

Quote from: Tonyt on February 27, 2013, 06:36 PM
According to Ibn Ishaq, it was the Jews of Medina, specifically the Banu Qurayza tribe, yep the same tribe that Muhammad would eventually slaughter, that started the belief that the Kaaba was a sacred Jewish sanctuary.

About 100-200 years before Muhammad, when some king of Yemen converted to Judaism, the Qurayza Jews told that King that Abraham had established the Kaaba at Mecca and the King should take over Mecca and re-establish the Kaaba as a sacred Jewish sanctuary. In fact this king was the first person to ever put a cloth over the Kaaba.

Oooo, do you have any readings you can share about the Yemeni king, or is that all in ibn Ishaq?

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Reply #35 - February 27, 2013, 09:48 PM

Quote from: tabularasa on February 27, 2013, 06:08 PM
If you think of it, honestly, Judaism barely resembles the original religion it once was. They used to have High Priests, blood sacrifices, burnt offerings, etc (all of which, funny enough, sound pagan to me). It's as if the original Hebrews were just doing what everyone else of that time was doing, but instead they just wore more clothing and whittled their God down to one...............................................

I am interested in knowing about what the ancient practitioners of that religion were like...what they did, believed, how they acted. I am sure as archeologists are able to dig further and further, the answers will be far more different from our previous assumptions.

There's quite a lot known about the roots of Judaism already. Yahweh was originally just another member of the local pantheon. Monotheism was a comparatively late modification of the local religion. So yes, they were totally "pagan" up until around the time that some of the "missing" OT books were miraculously "discovered" hiding in the temple. If you get hold of this, it has some details: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_Unearthed

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Reply #36 - February 27, 2013, 11:26 PM

Quote from: froclais on February 27, 2013, 09:31 PM
Oooo, do you have any readings you can share about the Yemeni king, or is that all in ibn Ishaq?

It is right at the start of Ibn Ishaq, the King was called Abu Kariba As'ad (Pages 7-9 of the English translation of Ibn Is'haq)

Here is the wikipedia entry for that Yemeni King:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tub'a_Abu_Kariba_As'ad
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Reply #37 - February 28, 2013, 01:27 AM

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Friends and colleagues alike have reacted with amazement and disbelief when I have told them about the history I have been looking at. In the southwestern part of Arabia, known in antiquity as Himyar and corresponding today approximately with Yemen, the local population converted to Judaism at some point in the late fourth century, and by about 425 a Jewish kingdom had already taken shape. For just over a century after that, its kings ruled, with one brief interruption, over a religious state that was explicitly dedicated to the observance of Judaism

http://www.ias.edu/about/publications/ias-letter/articles/2011-fall/jewish-arabia-bowersock

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Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Reply #38 - February 28, 2013, 12:57 PM

happymurtad, Hassan and everyone

I have a copy of this book and I'll be getting round to reading it soon, and I think you guys would find it of interest and relevance

The Idea of Idolatry and the Emergence of Islam: From Polemic to History by G. R. Hawting

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Why and under what circumstances did the religion of Islam emerge in a remote part of Arabia at the beginning of the seventh century? Traditional scholarship maintains that Islam developed in opposition to the idolatrous and polytheistic religion of the Arabs of Mecca and the surrounding regions. In this study of pre-Islamic Arabian religion, G. R. Hawting adopts a comparative religious perspective to suggest an alternative view. By examining the various bodies of evidence which survive from this period, the Koran and the vast resources of the Islamic tradition, the author argues that in fact Islam arose out of conflict with other monotheists whose beliefs and practices were judged to fall short of true monotheism and were, in consequence, attacked polemically as idolatry. The author is adept at unravelling the complexities of the source material, and students and scholars will find his argument both engaging and persuasive.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Reply #39 - February 28, 2013, 04:52 PM

That sounds like a good read, Billy.
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Reply #40 - February 28, 2013, 09:26 PM

No, Billy, my reading list is already too long. Can you come over and read it to me?

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Reply #41 - February 28, 2013, 09:42 PM

ha, maybe when I get round to reading it myself. I have a terrible habit of accumulating books on an impulse even though I have a stack to get through already.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Reply #42 - February 28, 2013, 09:46 PM

^Story of my life...
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Reply #43 - January 31, 2014, 04:22 PM

Hate to resurrect an old thread, but regarding:

Quote from: happymurtad on February 26, 2013, 11:00 PM

1. Aashuraa/Yom Kippur/Passover:

It is well known and accepted among Muslims that the practice of fasting the 10th day of the first month of the year (‘Aashuraa) was a Jewish practice that Muhammad adopted when he came to Madina.

“Ibn Abbas narrates that Muhammad came to Madina and saw the Jews fasting on the day of ‘Ashoora’. He said, “What is this?” They said, “This is a good day, this is the day when Allah saved the Children of Israel from their enemy and Moosa fasted on this day.” He said, “We are closer to Moosa than you.” So he fasted on this day and told the people to fast.”

The problem here is that while fasting on the day of Ashuraa would have been a jewish practice, the story they gave Muhammad did not match up. Passover is the festival celebrating the Hebrew escape from Egypt, while Yom Kippur is the fast of the ten days after the New Year, Roshashona. I wonder if the Jews deliberately mixed up the stories to see if Muhammad’s “God” would have directed him to the truth. When he unquestioningly adopted the practice with the story they gave him, they must have known he was a fraud.

Wouldn't Muslims be able to argue that Muhammad was 'directed to the truth' when he was told to fast on Ramadan instead and stopped fasting on ashura? (as told through the seerah, allegedly)

http://www.muharram.shiasisters.net/articles/fasting_on_ashura.html
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However, Imam Muhammad al Baqar narrates that as the fast of Ramadan became compulsory, the fast of Ashura was made void and then completely stopped.
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Reply #44 - January 31, 2014, 04:39 PM

Uhm, Ashura is still a day to fast on and not "void". Mo supposedly said that the sins of previous year will be forgiven if you fast on Ashura.

http://sunnahonline.com/library/hajj-umrah-and-the-islamic-calendar/324-virtues-of-muharram-and-fasting-on-ashura-the

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Reply #45 - February 01, 2014, 03:26 AM

Cool thread. Food for thought.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #46 - October 30, 2014, 01:01 AM

Quote from: tabularasa on February 27, 2013, 04:32 AM
a loose framework for a jewish like religion that was "open" for all mankind.

A sort of Free Church Judaism. Rather a good idea, actually.
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