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Theme Changer

 Topic: Explaining evolution

 (Read 9959 times)
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  • Explaining evolution
     Reply #30 - November 17, 2013, 06:21 PM

    You have a point there. The catholic church has the Adam and Eve creation myth yet they're managed to incorporate it with what actually happened without compromising the belief system.


    The Catholic Church doesn't follow the story as literal. Creation in this case is in the form of evolution so no "first" man or woman. The end product was man. The steps to the evolution of man are part of this creation. This is quite different following a literal version of the story. It created a new version of the story in which parts are no longer representation of fact or history.

    Dan went to the store. Dan went to the theater. Both stories feature Dan but are different as the place in which Dan went to is different. It is no longer the same story even if much of the story includes the same elements.

    The exemption was the creation of man in my example, I  wasn't making a case against science. By their very nature, miracles go against the expected order of things.

    Belief in such things don't necessarily disqualify one from using the scientific method in their appropriate fields.


    The creation of man is a religious view, it is not a scientific one. As I said if you allow miracles, personal experience, magic, whatever you want to call it become creditable evidence you open a flood gate to any and all views. None of these views can be observed in real time or an experiment nor is there physical evidence of such views. For example I could easily claim I had a vision from God in which the Man were really from another planet. The "Fall" of mankind was really about coming to Earth in a ship. The story was wrong. My view is just as acceptable as religious ones. Both lack a meaning to perform an experiment in which either the vision could be observed or can anyone have the vision themselves. I can not provide evidence of the ship nor planet we came from.

    Sure a belief in such ideas does not disqualify one from using the scientific method in general. However it the belief itself is not subject to the same method as I have pointed out above.

    Yeah. No lightening. Things just poppoing into existence without any rational explanation.


    This is an over-simplification to hide behind. Here is one rational explanation. The "Lightning" could have introduced a foreign element in the form of energy. This energy could have jump started a chemical reaction in the goo, which remains undefined, in which amino-acids were formed. Since we have no definition of what goo I, just as you, can assume goo is anything.
  • Explaining evolution
     Reply #31 - November 17, 2013, 06:33 PM

    Yes, science and philosophy are different - only the latter can really talk about right or wrong.
  • Explaining evolution
     Reply #32 - November 17, 2013, 06:35 PM

    Disagree.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Explaining evolution
     Reply #33 - November 17, 2013, 06:38 PM

    what part do you disagree with?
  • Explaining evolution
     Reply #34 - November 17, 2013, 06:40 PM

    That only philosophy can really talk about right or wrong.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Explaining evolution
     Reply #35 - November 17, 2013, 06:46 PM

    in the context of proving or disproving things which are outside the reach of the scientific method?
  • Explaining evolution
     Reply #36 - November 17, 2013, 06:47 PM

    both require a leap of faith I think - which works out better for religion.

    it makes less sense for a disbeliever to randomly choose between goo, space viruses or whatever is currently trending as an origin story/myth - the better position is to say you don't know rather than inventing a substitute dogma.


    Yet it makes more sense for the believer to assert it was God in which both the believer and disbeliever have the same amount of neutral evidence from which to draw a conclusion? Yet in many cases the believer adds their own "evidence" which is not proven or in many cases is proven incorrect. The only two honest answers would be Deism void of any doctrine, dogma, scripture, messengers, etc, and we do not know. In this case theism is just an unsubstantiated claim to the deist god answer.
  • Explaining evolution
     Reply #37 - November 17, 2013, 06:55 PM

    in the context of proving or disproving things which are outside the reach of the scientific method?


    Personally I come at ethics, morality, right and wrong from a philosophical point of view, as it's more natural to me, but I would disagree that it's outside the realm of science. For instance we know the hormones the brain releases to create love. We know about narcissists and sociopaths and psychopaths. We understand the neurology that make them what they are and we recognise it. We can even see it scientifically. If you take a brain scan of an average person and a brain scan of a psychopath, they look different. We understand enough to recognise one from the other and we're understanding more and more what makes them that way.

    We understand that piranhas won't attack each other even though they'll attack everything else. We understand the process in the brain that will make a new parent feel that rush of love for a new born child. I know that I will always think my child is more beautiful than yours, and you will always think yours is more beautiful than mine.

    We really do understand so much, and more all the time. Biology, psychology, social sciences, they all go a long way in our understanding of these things.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Explaining evolution
     Reply #38 - November 17, 2013, 07:14 PM

    in the context of proving or disproving things which are outside the reach of the scientific method?


    Philosophy relies on axioms which are agreed upon truth or true but not empirical true, proof. You can prove an argument is valid but one can not prove if the argument is true without scientific proof. Read Gödel's incompleteness theorems. Many branches of philosophy can not agree on these axioms. We use natural examples to prove if the axiom is true but are not required to do so. Axioms are also assumed true in many cases if there is no evidence to prove an axiom is true. Even in math axioms can be true with no physical proof in reality. It comes down to word play with "true" and "truth". A valid argument in using logic in philosophy is not proof.


  • Explaining evolution
     Reply #39 - November 23, 2013, 05:08 PM

    proof? when people are committed to disbelief, they become blind to any proof.

    characterising most people, especially apostates, as rational is probably a mistake.
  • Explaining evolution
     Reply #40 - November 23, 2013, 05:19 PM

    Hmm someguy is throwing some prophetic statements..

    proof? when people are committed to disbelief, they become blind to any proof.

    indeed when people are committed to belief, they become blind to any proof.

    It works both ways someguy., The point is having freedom to question folks on their beliefs, blind beliefs and that disbelief is  important,   but  Questioning  those guys who are  committed to some  beliefs and try to impose those beliefs on the society from 1000 year old books that are full of nonsense is much more important..

    Quote
    characterising most people, especially apostates, as rational is probably a mistake.

     you are absolutely right there.,  Off course  being an Apostate of Islam or for that matter any religious belief  is different  from being rational...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Explaining evolution
     Reply #41 - November 23, 2013, 05:42 PM

    Yes it cuts both ways - I was too lazy to include the flipside.

    I agree freedom of choice is necessary, it helps filter out those who only hang around out of convenience or  due to community pressure.
  • Explaining evolution
     Reply #42 - November 23, 2013, 05:53 PM

    Yes it cuts both ways - I was too lazy to include the flipside.

    I agree freedom of choice is necessary, it helps filter out those who only hang around out of convenience or  due to community pressure.

    Yap.. Freedom of choice.,  

    But that "freedom of choice" is for choosing a belief  not to do things that one would like to do.   Anyways  let us not be lazy., A precise statements in so-called religious issues  will help to bridge the gap in understanding  each other's views.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Explaining evolution
     Reply #43 - November 23, 2013, 06:53 PM

    proof? when people are committed to disbelief, they become blind to any proof.

    characterising most people, especially apostates, as rational is probably a mistake.


    I could say the same about you given different views you have expressed. Many are irrational given that some of your views fly in the face of modern knowledge.
  • Explaining evolution
     Reply #44 - November 23, 2013, 07:50 PM

    Since you believe islam is irrational, it's natural for you to say that.

    Regards being precise, it doesn't stop those intent on misunderstanding so the extra effort is wasted.
  • Explaining evolution
     Reply #45 - November 23, 2013, 07:57 PM

    Since you believe islam is irrational, it's natural for you to say that.......

    what is Islam in your neck of the world someguy ?  How do you define it??  well if you believe Islamic faith is rational   then first define your Islam and then you   prove "Islam is Rational". This will  change folks.  You have the right to do that.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Explaining evolution
     Reply #46 - November 23, 2013, 08:19 PM

    rational by whose definition? it's a dead end argument.

  • Explaining evolution
     Reply #47 - November 23, 2013, 09:22 PM

    Since you believe islam is irrational, it's natural for you to say that.

    Regards being precise, it doesn't stop those intent on misunderstanding so the extra effort is wasted.


    If some of the views of Islam contradict established science then holding to these views is irrational regardless of the definition you use. Yes it can be a dead end argument if one holds to these view in spite of the contradiction. Yet many religions are able to reinvent themselves once one interpretation is proven wrong. For example Catholics have dropped the literal interpretation of Adam and Eve for metaphorical interpretation, thus theistic evolution.

    Some elements of Islam are rational just as some elements are irrational. However given one must accept the irrational concepts along with the irrational ones Islam paints itself into a corner.
  • Explaining evolution
     Reply #48 - November 23, 2013, 09:38 PM

    you read quranic verses as scientific theories?

    this is another dead end.
  • Explaining evolution
     Reply #49 - November 23, 2013, 09:48 PM

    I'm quite curious as to how you read the quran? For instance when it takes about how humans are shaped in the womb and it's wrong, do you read it a different way? I'm assuming you acknowledge that when it was written this was included because at the time they thought it was what actually happened.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Explaining evolution
     Reply #50 - November 23, 2013, 10:16 PM

    the quran impresses on the reader the sovereignity of god over all creation in powerful verse - the aim is not to give a literal explanation of the mechanics of biology or the orbits of heavenly bodies.
  • Explaining evolution
     Reply #51 - November 23, 2013, 10:35 PM

    the quran impresses on the reader the sovereignity of god over all creation in powerful verse - the aim is not to give a literal explanation of the mechanics of biology or the orbits of heavenly bodies.


    you read quranic verses as scientific theories?

    this is another dead end.


    Yet it uses such mechanics as proof or signs of it divinity. Not really a dead end at all.
  • Explaining evolution
     Reply #52 - November 23, 2013, 10:39 PM

    the answer is simple.

    no it doesn't.

    disagree? that's the dead end.
  • Explaining evolution
     Reply #53 - November 23, 2013, 10:54 PM

    It doesn't to you yet many read just such theories into these proofs and signs. You reject one example yet hold other view such as Adam and Eve.

    Quote
    "Man is a special case and was instead inserted into creation. Does it make any sense to say that a creator is unable to perform such an act?

  • Explaining evolution
     Reply #54 - November 23, 2013, 11:05 PM

    I gave that example to make a point - it's not my view.

    Again, yet another dead end.
  • Explaining evolution
     Reply #55 - November 23, 2013, 11:10 PM

    You pick and choose your views. You accept and reject views based on your own judgement. Create the religion as you go.
  • Explaining evolution
     Reply #56 - November 23, 2013, 11:19 PM

    that sounds more like your generalisation about any muslim who isnt foaming at the mouth.
  • Explaining evolution
     Reply #57 - November 23, 2013, 11:35 PM

    someguy is going the way of the christians. Don't take it literally. Fair enough.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Explaining evolution
     Reply #58 - November 23, 2013, 11:36 PM

    No it something humans have done for centuries outside and within religion. We interpret laws, languages, science and society differently. We reinvent old concepts all the time and develop new concepts. I am just pointing out you are doing no more than the rest of us have done.
  • Explaining evolution
     Reply #59 - January 06, 2014, 05:19 PM

    EVOLUTION =/= ABIOGENESIS
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