Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Do humans have needed kno...
Today at 11:13 AM

Lights on the way
by akay
April 26, 2025, 09:05 AM

Kashmir endgame
April 24, 2025, 05:12 PM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
April 23, 2025, 04:19 PM

Pope Francis Signals Rema...
April 21, 2025, 09:06 AM

الحبيب من يشبه اكثر؟؟؟
by akay
April 18, 2025, 01:19 PM

New Britain
April 08, 2025, 05:35 PM

عيد مبارك للجميع! ^_^
by akay
March 29, 2025, 01:09 PM

Eid-Al-Fitr
by akay
March 29, 2025, 08:40 AM

Ramadan
by akay
March 29, 2025, 08:39 AM

Turkish mafia reliance
March 24, 2025, 06:00 PM

افضل الايام
by akay
March 21, 2025, 10:57 AM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Ethics

 (Read 3190 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Ethics
     OP - March 06, 2013, 05:13 PM

    Lately, I am questioning the notion that all ethics came from religion else there will be nothing stopping us.

    My thoughts: yes there will be
    Quran is OK with slavery. (Just treat them nice). With a loyal follower ship they could ban it, but it didn't. Fell out of grace as the beacon of ethics for me right there.

    Quran is OK with beating your wife too. Kinda instruct it...

    But pretty strong on drinking, gambling, eating halaal meat.

    Are there any other kooky ethics in Quran that I can use in debates? I want to prove that Quran is man written, and has some good / bad thing and basically is a moot point now a days.

    Thanks!
  • Ethics
     Reply #1 - March 06, 2013, 11:25 PM

    Well, the basic trait in medieval religions, in terms of moral teachings, is that they tend to punish sin and not immorality. Abortion is the biggest threat to world peace, Mother Theresa said. It is equivalent to murder, she added. It would follow that contraception (a preemptive alternative to abortion) was as bad as abortion, hence the conclusion that contraception is the greatest threat to world peace.

    Tell that to the murderer, the rapist, the serial killer, the Josef Fritzl, the Saddam Hussein etc. Calm down, you guys are newbs. Look at that guy over there, he is the worst criminal of you all. He uses condoms!

    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
  • Ethics
     Reply #2 - March 06, 2013, 11:31 PM

    Abortion is the biggest threat to world peace, Mother Theresa said. It is equivalent to murder, she added. It would follow that contraception (a preemptive alternative to abortion) was as bad as abortion, hence the conclusion that contraception is the greatest threat to world peace.



    I wonder why they stop there? Let’s take it even further and say that any time that any two adults who are capable of reproducing are not having hard, contraception-less, baby-making sex,  then they are, in effect, worse than murderers.
  • Ethics
     Reply #3 - March 06, 2013, 11:45 PM

     Cheesy

    While we're on it, why not suggest that by having a quick wank, you've committed genocide?

    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
  • Ethics
     Reply #4 - March 06, 2013, 11:46 PM

    ^The death of millions...
  • Ethics
     Reply #5 - March 06, 2013, 11:53 PM

    Thanks!

    So abortion = murder
    Touching myself = wrong
    Having a beer or two is wrong
    Non halal food is wrong
    Beating wife: ok
    Slavery: ok
    Homosexuality, adultery (even consensual) : stoned to death. Not the weed one!
    Gambling/interest: No
    Sex with captives: sure.
  • Ethics
     Reply #6 - March 07, 2013, 12:05 AM

    In Islam, everything is “malum prohibitum” as opposed to “malum in se.” That is, things are considered wrong only because they are prohibited, not wrong because they are in and of themselves bad.

    Eating with your left hand is wrong in Islam for no other than that Muhammad said not to do it. And for a Muslim, that is enough. Islam is essentially a giant game of celestial “Simon Says,” with Allah (read Muhammad) acting as Simon. Simon says enter the bathroom with your left foot. Simon says kill gays.

    In turn, the need, and even the capacity, to distinguish right from wrong is completely lost in the believer. Things that would normally make a person cringe and throw up are said and done by a believer without batting an eye. At the same time, normal, benign activities are seen as intrinsically evil.  

    Sexual slavery? No problem! Having your trousers below your ankles? Bad! Bad, bad, bad!!
  • Ethics
     Reply #7 - March 07, 2013, 02:21 AM

    Lately, I am questioning the notion that all ethics came from religion else there will be nothing stopping us.


    Thanks!


    let me guess: you have not really studied ethics yet?

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Ethics
     Reply #8 - March 07, 2013, 04:51 AM

    If you've got a couple of hours to kill, there's a great debate by one of my favourite people, Shelly Kagan, and one of my least favourite people, William Lane Craig. The question was: "Can morality exist without God?"

    Here's a short clip of the Q&A:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ebnShlP3jM

    Full debate [here]
    (1 hour 30 mins)

    Like Kagan says in his opening statement, people have being doing moral philosophy without appeal to gods for thousands of years. Kagan routed Craig in the debate, but the money shot for me was when he challenged Craig on the foundation of theistic morality (an example is towards the end of that short clip). He asks exactly the right kind of questions:

    "I'm tempted to say I could play this game, but that's unfair because of course it's not a game, but... I could pose the same kinds of questions to you... I could say, look, so God says 'You are guys are really, really special.' How does his saying it make us special? 'But you see, he gave us a soul.' How does our having a soul make us special? Whatever answer you give, you could always say, with regards to that, what's so special about that?"

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Ethics
     Reply #9 - March 07, 2013, 04:54 AM

    let me guess: you have not really studied ethics yet?


    No I have never studied them as a subject. My wife has, and she tells me she believes ethics originated from religion
  • Ethics
     Reply #10 - March 07, 2013, 05:15 AM

    A series of videos by the fantastic QualiaSoup, another of my favourite minds:

    Morality 1: Good without gods
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7xt5LtgsxQ

    Morality 2: Not-so-good books
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSS-88ShJfo

    Morality 3: Of objectivity and oughtness
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sN-yLH4bXAI

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Ethics
     Reply #11 - March 07, 2013, 06:26 AM

    In Islam, everything is “malum prohibitum” as opposed to “malum in se.” That is, things are considered wrong only because they are prohibited, not wrong because they are in and of themselves bad.

    Eating with your left hand is wrong in Islam for no other than that Muhammad said not to do it. And for a Muslim, that is enough. Islam is essentially a giant game of celestial “Simon Says,” with Allah (read Muhammad) acting as Simon. Simon says enter the bathroom with your left foot. Simon says kill gays.

    In turn, the need, and even the capacity, to distinguish right from wrong is completely lost in the believer. Things that would normally make a person cringe and throw up are said and done by a believer without batting an eye. At the same time, normal, benign activities are seen as intrinsically evil.  

    Sexual slavery? No problem! Having your trousers below your ankles? Bad! Bad, bad, bad!!


    Exactly what I've always been thinking! In Islam (as in many other religions), there are certain prohibitions that are ridiculously arbitrary; serve no purpose; and make no sense. The ankles/pants thing, the lying on your stomach thing, the stepping into the bathroom with your left foot thing, etc.; those things are all benign and morally neutral to most normal people but Islam -- for no particular reason -- has rules, and makes a big deal, about them. OTOH, the slavery, homophobia, sexism (including outright physical and sexual violence against women) and wanton killing are a-okay, and sometimes even considered moral and commendable. To top it off, Islam even prohibits some morally *good* things (eg: adoption). 

    When debating with Muslims/theists they always bring up morality. "How do you know murder is wrong?" I hate that! I usually respond with "Well, I obviously know murder is wrong because…it is just fucking wrong, okay! Would you be killing people for the sake of it if your collection of ancient desert ratings didn't tell you it was wrong?" 

    Where do we derive morality from? I know I have it; there are certain things that just make my insides scream "this is WRONG!" but where does our sense of right and wrong come from? Parents? Culture? Socialisation? Innate? 

    When you really think about it, a lot of Muslims don't even derive their ethics/morals from Islam. Most will tell you sex slavery is wrong despite the Quran saying the contrary; most don't know what the Quran says on the matter but still know that sex slavery is simply wrong. The savvier, more knowledgeable liberal Muslims perform all kinds of mental acrobatics to come to the conclusion that the Quran is not actually saying what it is actually saying in plain text…so as to bring it in line with their morality. That makes me think morality is probably innate. 


  • Ethics
     Reply #12 - March 07, 2013, 10:25 AM

    We dont need the 10 commandments or the Quran to tell us that murder or adultery is wrong. Richard Dawkings once said that the morality we find today at least in the majority of Europe, morality is derived from secular thought, discussion, arguments, struggles and conclusions. Slavery, racism, misogyny, capital punishment, homophobia, persecution of people based on religion etc - all of these different "moralities" are mainly based on 19-20th century secular thought.

    And then there the innate morality in which we all know that harming others or enroaching on others' property is wrong. No religion needed.

    If you go by religious morality then listening to music will result in molted iron being poured down your ears in hell, remaining celibate for life if you're gay or being thrown down a hill if you act on your homosexuality, having to keep a big beard or Mo will be pissed off at you on the day of judgement and a whole bunch of other turd.

    Oh and you can keep slaves but you gotta feed, clothe and shelter them!...Muslims tend to forget that you can have sex with them, I mean rape them, and you can beat them if they're disobediant...and you can sell them if you wanna save up for that new 3 bedroom apartment with a jacuzzi and a swimming pool.
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »