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 Topic: Sexual segregation at UCL event is a scandal

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  • Sexual segregation at UCL event is a scandal
     Reply #30 - July 20, 2013, 04:35 PM
    It might not be an exact analogy but in certain contexts it is a useful and rhetorically appropriate one.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Sexual segregation at UCL event is a scandal
     Reply #31 - July 20, 2013, 10:07 PM
    "racial segergation I don't think that's quite the same. Sex and race aren't analogous. Toilets (and other facilities) are segregated by sex; why don't we complain about that? I'm sure we would if they were segregated by race. "

    No offence, but that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read on this forum.
  • Sexual segregation at UCL event is a scandal
     Reply #32 - July 20, 2013, 10:09 PM
    Quote from: Crunchy Cds on March 11, 2013, 05:28 AM
    Honestly I think they were being fair by having separate and mixed sections, for Muslim ladies who are uncomfortable around guys. Gender segregation doesn't sit right with me, but if it's requested, by said people, why not respect their wishes?


    It's a public event.
  • Sexual segregation at UCL event is a scandal
     Reply #33 - July 21, 2013, 12:31 AM
    The case is not to be made for the hypersexualised feminine disposition but the angelic woman. By implementing a policy of discrimination they are not paving the way towards a constructive egalitarianism but a perpetuation of a post-christian idea of the woman. By expressing their disapproval they aren't proselytising (well, not implicitly) but requesting for even greater liberal exploitation of women under the rubric of freedom.

    The reification of woman as angel, (or idyllic God) can only be sustained if the woman is made to believe she is free (through the mental adumbration of a social construct) when in fact she is compelled to behave in a deviationist–conformist vein, in order that she adroitly abides by the shifting paradigms of patriarchy.
  • Sexual segregation at UCL event is a scandal
     Reply #34 - July 21, 2013, 12:46 AM
    A man is like diamond, a woman is like silk. If you drop a diamond in mud, you can wipe it clean. If you drop silk in mud, it;s ruined forever. Can't remember the scholar who said this, but always nice to see such humane sentiment.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Sexual segregation at UCL event is a scandal
     Reply #35 - July 21, 2013, 12:52 AM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on July 21, 2013, 12:46 AM
    A man is like diamond, a woman is like silk. If you drop a diamond in mud, you can wipe it clean. If you drop silk in mud, it;s ruined forever. Can't remember the scholar who said this, but always nice to see such humane sentiment.


    Take it you didn't read my post above?
  • Sexual segregation at UCL event is a scandal
     Reply #36 - July 21, 2013, 01:21 AM
    Quote from: schizo on July 21, 2013, 12:52 AM
    Take it you didn't read my post above?


    That was actually what reminded me of it.  Smiley
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Sexual segregation at UCL event is a scandal
     Reply #37 - July 21, 2013, 02:09 AM
    Well what that scholar said isn't humane.
  • Sexual segregation at UCL event is a scandal
     Reply #38 - July 21, 2013, 03:40 AM
    Sarcasm - Noun:

    The use of irony to mock or convey contempt.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Sexual segregation at UCL event is a scandal
     Reply #39 - July 21, 2013, 04:04 AM
    Yes — there is that, although it was perfectly conceivable that you did not comprehend the content of my post.
  • Sexual segregation at UCL event is a scandal
     Reply #40 - July 21, 2013, 04:15 AM
    Honestly I'm surprised you thought I was serious. Ah well, no worries mate. Although I have to admit I did look up 'deviationist', I'd never come across that word before.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Sexual segregation at UCL event is a scandal
     Reply #41 - July 21, 2013, 05:29 AM
    Blame ramadan for dimihnishing my intellectual acuity.
  • Sexual segregation at UCL event is a scandal
     Reply #42 - July 21, 2013, 05:43 AM
     Cheesy
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Sexual segregation at UCL event is a scandal
     Reply #43 - July 21, 2013, 08:42 AM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on July 21, 2013, 12:46 AM
    A man is like diamond, a woman is like silk. If you drop a diamond in mud, you can wipe it clean. If you drop silk in mud, it;s ruined forever. Can't remember the scholar who said this, but always nice to see such humane sentiment.

    and you remind me of the wrapped candy analogy

    The man asks: “Why does Islam oblige Muslim women to wear hijab?”
    In answering the question, the cleric takes out two candies; unwraps one of them and throws them both onto the floor. He asks: “If you have to choose, which candy will you pick?”
    The man answers: “Of course I’ll take the wrapped one, because it’s the clean one.”
    The cleric goes, “Indeed. In Islam, we protect our women through hijab.”

    which i criticized that 'that' analogy means:
    1. women are as cheap as candy
    2. you can buy them as much as you like and they are available almost everywhere
    3. if you don't like the flavor, you can throw it away and get a different one
    4. you can throw women to the ground/ floor without feeling guilty/bad

     cool2
  • Sexual segregation at UCL event is a scandal
     Reply #44 - July 21, 2013, 09:18 AM
    It's depressing there's more than one.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Sexual segregation at UCL event is a scandal
     Reply #45 - July 21, 2013, 10:16 AM
    Quote from: Al-Alethia on March 12, 2013, 09:38 AM
    Sex and race aren't analogous.

    The argument can be made that Islam puts women as second class citizens. While there isn't necessarily the all-encompassing hatred of racial segregation, that hostile relationship that was informing all kinds of abuses, there are certainly parallels to be found. There is still the all-encompassing discriminatory dynamic in Islam between the genders.

    Quote from: Al-Alethia on March 12, 2013, 09:38 AM
    Toilets (and other facilities) are segregated by sex; why don't we complain about that? I'm sure we would if they were segregated by race. 

    There are legitimate reasons to have separate toilet facilities. Separate toilets are more about biology and by extension practicality. Women can't just lob it out and piss in a urinal.

    There is also something to be said about the huge difference between privacy and modesty regarding private and personal hygiene, the desirability of 'taking care of business' in privacy, compared to segregation in all public and basic human interaction. Self-consciousness and even prudishness are easily understandable in the former.

    This is why the social convention has endured.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Sexual segregation at UCL event is a scandal
     Reply #46 - July 21, 2013, 10:20 AM
    Quote from: Dave Gilbert299 on March 12, 2013, 12:45 PM
    The irony here being that this event was held the day after International Women's Day.

    Also, that this event was held at the UCL – the first secular university ever in the UK, the first to admit people regardless of religion, and the first to admit women on equal terms with men.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Sexual segregation at UCL event is a scandal
     Reply #47 - July 21, 2013, 10:38 AM
    Quote from: Ishina on July 21, 2013, 10:20 AM
    Also, that this event was held at the UCL – the first secular university ever in the UK, the first to admit people regardless of religion, and the first to admit women on equal terms with men.


    I didn't realise that. Talk about rubbing salt in the wound.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Sexual segregation at UCL event is a scandal
     Reply #48 - August 01, 2013, 10:53 AM
    Quote from: Crunchy Cds on March 11, 2013, 05:28 AM
    Honestly I think they were being fair by having separate and mixed sections, for Muslim ladies who are uncomfortable around guys. Gender segregation doesn't sit right with me, but if it's requested, by said people, why not respect their wishes?

    I think that's perfectly fair as well. I know plenty of Muslimahs who'd rather not sit next to strange men; I don't see how that's a problem in and of itself, especially if those who don't want to sit segregated don't have to. Gender segregation is probably one of the least of Islam's problems.
  • Sexual segregation at UCL event is a scandal
     Reply #49 - August 01, 2013, 11:14 AM
    Quote from: Al-Alethia on August 01, 2013, 10:53 AM
    I think that's perfectly fair as well. I know plenty of Muslimahs who'd rather not sit next to strange men; I don't see how that's a problem in and of itself, especially if those who don't want to sit segregated don't have to. Gender segregation is probably one of the least of Islam's problems.


    You are absolutely right, but "gender segregation by rules.. specially religious rules is different from  gender segregation by   women's choice ". Same rule  applies to wearing  or not wearing burkha, hijab.. niqab , beads, nose piercing  etc...etc..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Sexual segregation at UCL event is a scandal
     Reply #50 - August 01, 2013, 11:33 AM
    I think it is a problem that some women will feel pressured to unneeded gender segregation because of social pressure in such a situation - or risk being seen as a whore.

    Also it is a general problem that "modesty" is primarily - or solely - the responsibility of the female.

    They could have made the front rows "vagina hostesses"-only just for kicks though grin12
    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
  • Sexual segregation at UCL event is a scandal
     Reply #51 - August 01, 2013, 07:47 PM
    Quote from: schizo on July 21, 2013, 12:31 AM
    The case is not to be made for the hypersexualised feminine disposition but the angelic woman. By implementing a policy of discrimination they are not paving the way towards a constructive egalitarianism but a perpetuation of a post-christian idea of the woman. By expressing their disapproval they aren't proselytising (well, not implicitly) but requesting for even greater liberal exploitation of women under the rubric of freedom.

    The reification of woman as angel, (or idyllic God) can only be sustained if the woman is made to believe she is free (through the mental adumbration of a social construct) when in fact she is compelled to behave in a deviationist–conformist vein, in order that she adroitly abides by the shifting paradigms of patriarchy.


    "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler."
  • Sexual segregation at UCL event is a scandal
     Reply #52 - August 01, 2013, 11:01 PM
    Quote from: Al-Alethia on August 01, 2013, 10:53 AM
    Gender segregation is probably one of the least of Islam's problems.

    I couldn't disagree more. Gender segregation is one of the cornerstones of abuses against women in Islam.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Sexual segregation at UCL event is a scandal
     Reply #53 - August 02, 2013, 01:32 AM
    Agreed^^^^

    Agreed

    Agreed

    You know, separating the genders ultimately just creates unhealthy and unbalanced people.  When I was Muslim I craved hanging out with and conversing with men, constantly.  It always seemed they (men) were talking about far more interesting things than the women around me were.  I also missed just having male energy around me.....I went from having mostly male friends all my life, then when I converted...*poof*  all gone.  I think it made me depressed for years, just never realized what the reason was.....
    Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
  • Sexual segregation at UCL event is a scandal
     Reply #54 - August 02, 2013, 01:58 AM
    Most of my friends are women. This is wrong, obviously.
  • Sexual segregation at UCL event is a scandal
     Reply #55 - August 02, 2013, 07:38 AM
    Enforcing gender segregation is wrong - period.

    If I remember correctly, men were assigned the front rows, couples the middle, and women at the back.
    In a country that, in general, does not separate people by gender in public spaces, it is unacceptable that public events by certain groups are allowed to get away with this - and the irony of using institutions that historically championed for the complete opposite!
    If it was an all muslim event, and all the muslims present had no problem with it, then it might have been different. There are muslims who don't follow gender segregation and I have no doubt they would have faced the same problem if they tried to sit where they wished. It was a public event so people of all walks of life were allowed to attend, and the organisers seemed to be two faced - telling one group of people there wouldn't be segregation and another that there would - that in itself is a bad start.

    Humans are capable of segregating themselves based on familiarity and gender. There is no need for group organisers (who have no legal authority any way) to take on such a policing role.
    If you look at any queue in a public place, people organise themselves fairly well - friends/couples (male and female) stick close together, different groups keep a reasonable distance from each other. There is no need for separate queues, unless the men are dry humping women from behind, which I have yet to see happen in the UK. However, ironically, in Kuwait and India where I've lived and where genders are usually separated in many ways, the incidence of males groping and harassing females is very high.

    Again, when people are seated a room, they are capable of organising themselves - those who know each other are seated close, and groups of people keep a reasonable distance, for example one or two seats away from each other. When you travel by busy public transport (at least in the UK), you are in much closer physical contact that you would be when seated in a lecture hall.

    And gender segregation is definitely one of the cornerstones of inequality because it starts off with the premise that men and women are unequal and incompatible in some way that they are unable to tolerate the presence of the other.
    We are all human beings and unless someone is threatening or harassing you, there is no need to fear them or feel uncomfortable around them regardless of their skin colour, gender etc.
  • Sexual segregation at UCL event is a scandal
     Reply #56 - August 02, 2013, 04:03 PM
    Quote
    However, ironically, in Kuwait and India where I've lived and where genders are usually separated in many ways, the incidence of males groping and harassing females is very high.

    Yeah, I can confirm that from personal experience. Roll Eyes And when I lived there I dressed fully Islamically from head to toe.
    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: Sexual segregation at UCL event is a scandal
     Reply #57 - August 03, 2013, 07:15 AM
    Quote from: kutta on August 01, 2013, 07:47 PM
    "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler."


    Woman does not exist, woman is a symptom of man, there is no sexual relationship.
  • Sexual segregation at UCL event is a scandal
     Reply #58 - August 03, 2013, 03:33 PM
    Quote from: Luthiel on August 02, 2013, 04:03 PM
    Yeah, I can confirm that from personal experience. Roll Eyes And when I lived there I dressed fully Islamically from head to toe.


    Ugh you'd think at least women in traditional "modest" clothing would be spared the advances of lecherous men, but no. Even middle aged or elderly women are not immune. banghead I don't think I've met a women yet who has lived in these countries and has NOT had a few tales to tell.
  • Sexual segregation at UCL event is a scandal
     Reply #59 - August 03, 2013, 07:36 PM
    I've also heard that there have been many cases of women being harassed or felt up during tawaf at the Kabaaa so what does that tell you. Lecherous men exist in all societies and have done for some time but the sexual repression that can exist in more conservative societies does nothing but make it worse.  Gender segregation and covering of women stems from the archaic view that sees women as property. Its easier to keep tabs on your female asset if they are separated off and it's also best if they are covered in public in order to prevent others from accessing that asset.
    Of course, the vast majority of men in many poorer nations of the world aren't yet ready,  mature or advanced or developed  enough in their outlook or thinking yet to break out of this mode of thinking so for the time being in those nations segregation is in my view probably necessary to protect women from unnecessary aggravation.
    When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood by its nature is bound to perish.
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