God Evil, Shatan not so bad

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- scamper_22
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God Evil, Shatan not so bad
OP - March 25, 2013, 10:49 PM

Well, I got into an odd discussion with family the other day.
Without intending on it, I basically said that God is evil and the devil is not so bad.
This never really occurred to me when I left the religion, but it is kind of funny.

They basically defend God in a way that basically says he created us, so he can set the rules, and there are punishments... what's wrong with that?
And I responded with this.

God creates life, sets a whole plethora of rules, and then threatens you with hellfire (at least in the Islamic context) and all kinds of torturous eternal punishments if you disbelieve.

We as humans have more compassion and mercy than this. The worst most of the civilized world does is lock people in jail or even kill them quickly for those countries with the death penalty.

Who among us would even treat our pets that poorly if they disobeyed us? Pets are kind of how God would treat humans. Creates us so we can love him. Like how people raise a dog for the love and loyalty. But what happens if your pet doesn't obey you? Do you light your cat on fire and shove hot magma in his throat for eternity?

Heck, I don't think I'd even wish that kind of punishment on an ant or mosquito.

Really, we as humans are more compassionate, merciful, and loving than God.

And Satan, really isn't that bad. Again, from the Islamic context, he simply refuses to bowdown to human kind and disobeys god in this manner.
Alright dude... Satan doesn't think I'm worthy to bowdown to. No big deal. I'm kind of indifferent towards the fella.
I don't think the human race is all that glorifying either.

Meanwhile, I can't be indifferent towards God as he will get sadistic on my ass.

Now granted, you might choose to believe in God, the same way you might have saluted Hitler in Nazi Germany just to avoid being thrown into a concentration camp. But that doesn't make Hitler any less evil... and it doesn't make God any less evil.

Good thing I don't believe in this stuff
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Reply #1 - March 25, 2013, 10:56 PM

I made that exact same case when I was into debating muslims. Well said. Allah really is insane when you sit down and think about it. Good thing the guy is fake.
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Reply #2 - March 25, 2013, 11:42 PM

you also have to consider that the quran is only one side of the story. God is basically writing his own review, and he is a bit biased.
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Reply #3 - March 25, 2013, 11:44 PM

That is totally right. Don't forget also that Allah misguides whom he wills, and the goal of Satan is also to misguide mankind. And Allah made a pact with Satan so that he can lead people astray for a certain time. So basically Allah and Satan commit the crime to misguide people and they're accomplices.

If the abrahamic god judged himself according to his own moral standards, he'd go to hell.

He's jealous, full of pride, he created evil, he doesn't heal sick people while he could, he's attacking people who are weaker than him, he follows his own desires and he commits murders all the time.
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Reply #4 - March 26, 2013, 02:26 AM

And that Allah made up the WHOLE THING himself. It is all his idea, and this is the best he could come up with.
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Reply #5 - March 26, 2013, 03:09 AM

"I have no special regard for Satan; but I can at least claim that I have no prejudice against him. It may even be that I lean a little his way, on account of his not having a fair show. All religions issue bibles against him, and say the most injurious things about him, but we never hear his side. We have none but evidence for the prosecution and yet we have rendered the verdict. To my mind, this is irregular. It is un-English. It is un-American; it is French. Without this precedent Dreyfus could not have been condemned. As soon as I can get at the facts I will undertake his rehabilitation myself if I can find an unpolitic publisher. It is a thing we ought to be willing to do for anyone who is under a cloud. We may not pay him reverance, for that would be indiscreet, but we can at least respect his talents. A person who has for untold centuries maintained the imposing position of spiritual head of four-fifths of the human race, and political head of the whole of it, must be granted the possession of executive abilites of the loftiest order. In his large presence the other popes and politicians shrink to midgets for the microscope. I would like to see him. I would rather see him and shake him by the tail than any member of the European concert."
- Mark Twain, Concerning the Jews, 1899

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Reply #6 - March 26, 2013, 03:18 AM

Nice. First time I've read that.
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Reply #7 - March 26, 2013, 06:33 AM

I've had this page bookmarked way before I joined the forum.

Quote
Is Satan Really Such a Bad Guy?

According to Christianity, Satan is the epitome and embodiment of all evil things, described as "the father of all lies" in the Catholic Church's Catechism (paragraph 391). It is his works that tempt humans into doing bad deeds. If something evil occurs, we can be assured that Satan had something to do with it.

The History of Satan

According to Catholicism, Satan only exists because God allows him to (The Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 395). This raises some serious issues about how righteous God can be if he allows evil to exist, but I digress. Satan, as the story goes, began as the angel Lucifer, who outrightly rejected God and rebelled against him. God cast Lucifer and those who followed him into Hell, a place of eternal torture and despair, where God was not present.

Like any good propoganda machine, Christian authorities have made sure to limit the disenimation of information on the enemy (Satan) to what they want the public to know. For example, we are never told why Satan rebelled against God. We're never given his side of the story. Were Satan's reasons for rejecting God and attempting to overthrow him legitimate? From where I'm standing, they could certainly be considered valid if the authorities see fit to hide them from the general public.

For example, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the book that outlines Catholic beliefs in detail, has barely half a column in its index devoted to Satan and information on him, where as Jesus Christ has a full 6 pages! Sound like a propoganda machine to you, yet?

Christian authorities have made some big mistakes with their anti-Satan propoganda machine, however. Since there is so little information available about Satan, there is no record of anything he's done or any way to connect events to him. Christians simply and lazily accredit evil occurences to Satan. A good example are the events of September 11. Within weeks, a doctored picture was floating around the internet showing Satan's face in the clouds of smoke and debris eminating from the two towers, thus unfairly making Satan out to be responsible for these tragedies.

Satan vs. God

The only evidence we have to conclude Satan's utter evil is God's word, and frankly, God's word isn't worth too much. He's shown a remarkable inconsistency in his actions and words, and he's hardly above lying or dishonest conduct. Straight after giving Moses the first set of Ten Commandments (which included "Thou shalt not kill"), he let Moses go ahead and order the Levites to go on a mass-murdering rampages, which they did, but only after he talked God out of killing all the people! According to 2 Thessolonians 2:11-12, God will send a strong illusion to people so that they will believe lies, so he can condemn everyone to Hell. After giving Moses the Ten Commandments, God orchestrated a litany of atrocities through isoltated commandments that are simply too great in number to list here. I suggest checking out the The Skeptic's Annotated Bible to see for yourself, specifically this section. These events are detailed in Exodus 32. In 2 Chronicles 18:22, God lies to prophets. Why should anyone take his word at face value if he has no problem with lying to us for no reason other than to have an excuse to condemn us to Hell?

Who's more evil? God or Satan? How can we determine this? Well, it's a simple matter of looking at the actions of both God and Satan. Who's commited more evil acts? Who's done more harm to humanity? Who's been the most oppressive? Is Satan really as bad as the Christian Smear Campaign makes him out to be? Let's find out...

God

•God takes away Adam and Eve's eternal life, thus commiting the first murder, and holds their descendants responsible and visiting Adam and Eve's punishment down on their children. In today's moral standards, the sins of the father die with the father.
•God destroys all life on Earth in a great flood, except for a drunk (Noah) and his family, for failing to worship him.
•God's tenth plague upon the Israelites was the unjustified murder of all firstborn sons in Egypt, which undoubtedly included little children.
•Before sending the plagues to Egypt, God "hardened Pharaoh's heart" so that he wouldn't let the Israelites go, so he could have an excuse to visit horrible plagues upon them, like boils, killing cattle and murdering all firstborn sons. (Exodus 4:21)
•God orders the Levites to kill their "every man and his neighnor" for worshipping another god. This cost 3000 lives. (Exodus 32:27)
•God sends a plague to the Israelites, apparently feeling that mass-butchery wasn't enough of a punishment. (Exodus 32:35)
•God kills Onan for refusing to impregnate his late brother's (whom God also slew) wife and instead "spilling his seed on the ground." (Genesis 38:8-10)
•God kills the entire populations of Soddom and Gammorah (again, including women, children and infants) for practicing certain sexual techniques.
•God gives all Philistines hemorrhoids in their pubic areas. (1 Samuel 5:9)
•God kills over 50,000 people for looking at an ark. (1 Samuel 6:19)
•God kills 70,000 people because King David decided to have a census. (1 Chronicles 21:7-14)
•God approves of slavery, and instructs owners to beat their slaves. (Proverbs 29:19)
•And, finally, God makes sure that if you are guilty of even the smallest transgression, you shall suffer endlessly for all eternity, following a dramatic homecoming for Jesus, who will be extremely pissed off at everyone for putting him to death, even though it was just the Romans and even though he knew what was going to happen beforehand, and he could have easily avoided it by using his power as God to perform a miracle and prove who he was. (See the entire book of Revelation)

Satan

•Satan, like Prometheus, gave knowledge to humanity by giving Eve the fruit from the forbidden tree. Because of Satan, humanity gained knowledge of good and evil, according to Genesis. Since we couldn't have possessed knowledge of good and evil before eating the fruit, Adam and Eve couldn't have known that eating the fruit was evil, so it seems a little harsh to punish them as severely as God did. Satan gave humans true capacity for moral judgment, unlike God, who simply expected everyone to mindlessly obey his orders.
•There is no biblical record of Satan engaging in the murder of torture of any human being, unlike God, who is guilty (and proudly guilty) of commiting genocide.
•There is no biblical record of Satan ever ordering someone to kill someone else, unlike God, who has repeatedly demanded the deaths of those who commit even the smallest of offenses.
•Satan will not be holding a massively dramatic ceremony full of blood and death for the return of his son to Earth. God apparently will.

It doesn't take a mathematician to add up and compare God and Satan's respective body counts. God has, after all, killed billions of people in a great flood. Satan never did anything like that. What was the only thing Satan did "wrong"? He rebelled against God, but wouldn't you? Look at what kind of a God he is! He needlessly murders people in nearly every book and passage of the Old Testament! He created an entire race of people for the sole purpose of catoring to his own ego, and then gets mad when we don't live up to our appointed role in life or question one of his decisions! He is a ruthless, dictatorial, narcissistic, sociopathic mass murderer. If I go to Hell for not worshipping him, so much the better. I'd rather spend eternity with Satan, someone who hasn't treated the human race like disposable garbage, someone who has given knowledge to humanity rather than trying to suppress it.

It's time to stop this needless slandering of Satan's name. Satan has done nothing to deserve it. He hasn't killed anyone, publicly exonerated slavery, demanded our worship or threatened us with eternal damnation for not doing his bidding. It is God who is guilty of all these crimes. Satan's done nothing but rebel against a repugnantly unjust authority figure, and he gets eternal damnation and association and blame for all evil on Earth! Meanwhile, Martin Luther King, Jr. gets a holiday named after him, and Satan was far more courageous that King was. After all, Satan stood up to an all powerful narcissist who made it clear that he never would change his mind on any issue. King at least had a democracy to work with. The Christian Smear Campaign toward Satan is completely unwarranted. Maybe, before criticizing Satan, they should look at the God they worship. Is Satan really a bad guy? Certainly not in comparison to God. In fact, I'd much rather have Satan running things. He just can't be worse than God.

http://www.daltonator.net/durandal/religion/satan.shtml
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Reply #8 - March 26, 2013, 01:35 PM

I loved reading that Jila!
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Reply #9 - March 26, 2013, 01:41 PM

yes, interesting point of view, I once thought something similar but I was too lazy to formulate a whole argument.
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Reply #10 - July 30, 2013, 10:07 PM

Made this case myself. In reply to something of a similar nature I said something along the lines of "Can you imagine the reaction if Batman pulled this shit?" The reason I said that was because I thought it made a good point. If you imagine superheroes doing what god does it would be looked at as evil. If Superman was pissed at humanity and decided to wipe us all out except for him and two humans for whatever reason he views as worthy as saving to be ruled under his guidance, or Batman slit the throat of the first born son of every criminal in Gotham to try and make the city free of criminality, seriously imagine the reaction if parents saw their child watching this on cartoon network while eating their cereal. EVERYONE would be up in arms, raging on how sick and evil it is.

So why is it these same people teach their children the exact same stories and tell them it's good? It's a mind fuck.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #11 - July 31, 2013, 03:16 AM

Good analogy Quod..

Very good points guys.

That is why i view the Muslims as hypocrites.

When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called a Religion.
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Reply #12 - July 31, 2013, 11:59 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ0Vtk9ffGI&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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Reply #13 - July 31, 2013, 04:14 PM

^lol HM, I love that guy's videos. I found the channel a while back and went through all of them.

Anyway, very interesting thread, and something I've thought about a lot as well. In fact, it's one of the reasons Paradise Lost is my favorite epic and one of my favorite pieces of literature. It actually explores the whole Bible mythos from, among others, Satan's perspective. I love how he is portrayed as proud and strongwilled, ie not willing to be subjugated by God and treated like a glorified slave in Heaven, not to mention clever and intelligent. "Better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven" and all that.

Quote from: dr_sloth on March 25, 2013, 11:42 PM
you also have to consider that the quran is only one side of the story. God is basically writing his own review, and he is a bit biased.

This. A hundred times this. It's interesting how religious folk assume that God's word is incontrovertibly true, and conveniently ignore the other possibilities. For example, I love imagining Satan as a real laidback kind of guy who doesn't harbor any ill will toward humanity, who doesn't even hold a grudge against God. Just an average guy who sits around in his little out-of-the-way shack in Hell, strumming his guitar and smoking a joint and seeing his (fiery) world with cheer and optimism, minding his own business. Every now and then, a sinner who gets sent to Hell and wanders the scorching wasteland happens upon Satan, who offers the wayward traveler a drink and a place to crash for the night.

"I don't understand," the traveler might say. "I've heard all these awful things about you, but you don't seem that bad at all."
"Yeah, man," Satan might respond. "I get that a lot. Kind of a funny story."
"Funny story?"
"Yeah, man. It was after God created the Heavens and the angels and the Jinns, and Adam and his wife, Eve. He asked us to bow down to Adam. All I did was say, 'hey, man, I think this new creation of yours is coolio, God. But I don't believe in bowing down to anybody. A sentient being's gotta have his self-respect, right? Anyway, it's nothing personal, and I hope you don't think I mean any offense. It's just, well--I'm not really the bowing down type, know what I mean?'"
"That's all?" the traveler might ask.
"Yeah," Satan might reply. "I didn't even insult him or nothin'. Then God banished me to this little piece of Hell, and He spread all these rumors about me, about how I'm this horrible guy who wants to hurt Him and His creations."
"But didn't you convince Eve to eat the apple?"
"What? That serpent story? No way, man. I'd never do that. Eve and Adam were real cool cats. We hung out all the time. I'd never do anything to try and get 'em in trouble. God set me up, man. I was framed. I wasn't nowhere near that tree, and I sure as heck ain't never disguised myself as a snake." A shiver might run down Satan's spine. "Jeez. Snakes give me the creeps. Hey, you want a hit, man? Primo stuff. Grew it myself."
The traveler might accept the offer graciously, then continue. "So you don't try lead people astray so they'll spend eternity in Hell?"
"What? Heck no. How could I? I'm stuck down here. God just made up that story so you folks would have someone to blame. And even if I could, why would I want to? My friend, I've never even hurt a fly. Not even those really big, freaky-lookin' ones with the yellow stripes. Bugs give me the creeps. But they got as much right to live as I do."
"Aren't you mad at God for sentencing you to eternity in Hell?"
"Mad? Nah. Well, I guess I was upset at first, but after I thought about it awhile," Satan might say in his languid drawl, "I realized it ain't God's fault. Now, I don't mean no offense to God, but He's got a bit of a temper. Except it ain't His fault. It's just the way He is. He can't help it, any more than you can help being black or white or straight or gay. I know He probably didn't mean anything by it. So I've forgiven Him. And besides"--Satan might point at the row of flowerpots sitting by the window sill, the flowers bright but wilting at the edges--"Hell ain't such a bad place, once you get used to it. The way I see it, you gotta find beauty in the world, man. No matter where you are."
"Wow," the traveler might say, gazing wide-eyed into the blazing desert dunes. "Hey, you mind if I get another hit of that joint?"
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Reply #14 - July 31, 2013, 04:16 PM

When ramadan came, many of my Muslim Facebook friends sharing something about Islam such reward from god, punishments and so on.

One of them capture my eyes. It is about the story of isra mikraj. The prophet been shown 10 types of punishment for sinned women. One of them that shock me to the bone is:

"women's breast been hang from the buttock and the zakum boiling water been poured to their throat. These are the women who breastfeeding somebody else children without their husband permission."

What??

@iceman.. Wow, satan from new perspective eh.. Nice.. haha

When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called a Religion.
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Reply #15 - July 31, 2013, 04:49 PM

Jila says something and
Quote from: Jila on March 26, 2013, 06:33 AM
I've had this page bookmarked way before I joined the forum.

http://www.daltonator.net/durandal/religion/satan.shtml

and Awaken Malay says something
Quote from: Awaken Malay on July 31, 2013, 03:16 AM
Good analogy Quod..

Very good points guys.

That is why i view the Muslims as hypocrites.

Who.. what?? Awaken Malay?? Hope you are not from Mali., No..No..Nah you can not View " the Muslims as hypocrites."... Not All Muslims., that is probably what you meant. I know Plenty of Muslims who are not and were NOT hypocrites ., That is a sweeping statement ., There are huge differences between the Muslims ., There understanding of Islam is as different as some one understanding Quran by blind reading it..

Muslims can go from., "Islam is deen and I have nothing to do with rest of the world" To ... "Islam is just pray, fast, give some donations, do so some hajj .. go around stone or throw stones in the air" To..to.. "
Quote
Kill Infidels.. Kill Apostates.. put black tent on women folks ., drinking juice killed prophet of Islam ., kill juice... My home is mine and your home is mine.. We can have as many mothers as the great Prophet wanted to sleep with" .. Every woman of the town was after that guy"....

.. kill all rascals and and DIE ..and.. go and enjoy wide eyed houries after death..

So ..so Mr. Malay., There is no doubt there are hypocrites in Islam but I am pretty sure you know that All Muslims are Not hypocrites.. Any ways., I wonder whether you like this
Quote
Is God Really Such a Bad Guy?

According to Jilaism, god is the epitome and embodiment of all evil things, described as "the father of all lies" in the Jila Church's Catechism (paragraph 391). It is god's works that tempt humans into doing bad deeds. If something evil occurs, we can be assured that god had something to do with it.

The History of god

According to Jilaism, god only exists because Satan allows him to (The Jilaism of the Jila Church, paragraph 395). This raises some serious issues about how righteous Satan can be if he allows evil to exist, but I digress. god , as the story goes, began as the devil Lucifer, who out rightly rejected Satan and rebelled against him. Satan cast Lucifer and those who followed him into Hell, a place of eternal torture and despair, where Satan was not present.

Like any good propoganda machine, Jilaism authorities have made sure to limit the disenimation of information on the enemy (god) to what they want the public to know. For example, we are never told why god rebelled against Satan. We're never given his side of the story. Were god's reasons for rejecting satan and attempting to overthrow him legitimate? From where I'm standing, they could certainly be considered valid if the authorities see fit to hide them from the general public.

For example, the Jilism of the jila Church, the book that outlines jia beliefs in detail, has barely half a column in its index devoted to god and information on him, where as Juice devil has a full 6 pages! Sound like a propoganda machine to you, yet?

Jila authorities have made some big mistakes with their anti-god propoganda machine, however. Since there is so little information available about god, there is no record of anything he's done or any way to connect events to him. Jilas simply and lazily accredit evil occurences to god. A good example are the events of September 11. Within weeks, a doctored picture was floating around the internet showing god's face in the clouds of smoke and debris eminating from the two towers, thus unfairly making god out to be responsible for these tragedies.

Satan vs. god

The only evidence we have to conclude gods utter evil is Satan's word, and frankly, satan's word isn't worth too much. He's shown a remarkable inconsistency in his actions and words, and he's hardly above lying or dishonest conduct. Straight after giving juicy Moses the first set of Ten Commandments (which included "Thou shalt not kill"), he let juicey Moses go ahead and order the Levites to go on a mass-murdering rampages, which they did, but only after he talked satan out of killing all the people! According to 2 jilasolonians 2:11-12, satan will send a strong illusion to people so that they will believe lies, so he can condemn everyone to Hell. After giving Moses the Ten Commandments, satan orchestrated a litany of atrocities through isoltated commandments that are simply too great in number to list here. I suggest checking out the The Skeptic's Annotated Bible to see for yourself, specifically this section. These events are detailed in jiladus 32. In 2 jilaonicles 18:22, Satan lies to prophets. Why should anyone take his word at face value if he has no problem with lying to us for no reason other than to have an excuse to condemn us to Hell?

Who's more evil? Satan or Satan's son god? How can we determine this? Well, it's a simple matter of looking at the actions of both God and Satan. Who's committed more evil acts? Who's done more harm to humanity? Who's been the most oppressive? Is god really as bad as the Jila Smear Campaign makes him out to be? Let's find out...

Satan

•Satan takes away Adam and Eve's eternal life, thus commiting the first murder, and holds their descendants responsible and visiting Adam and Eve's punishment down on their children. In today's moral standards, the sins of the father die with the father.
•Satan destroys all life on Earth in a great flood, except for a drunk (Noah) and his family, for failing to worship him.
•Satan 's tenth plague upon the juicelites was the unjustified murder of all firstborn sons in Egypt, which undoubtedly included little children.
•Before sending the plagues to Egypt, Satan "hardened Pharaoh's heart" so that he wouldn't let the juicelites go, so he could have an excuse to visit horrible plagues upon them, like boils, killing cattle and murdering all firstborn sons. (Jiladus 4:21)
•Satan orders the godites to kill their "every man and his neighnor" for worshipping another god. This cost 3000 lives. (Jiladus 32:27)
•Satan sends a plague to the jucelites, apparently feeling that mass-butchery wasn't enough of a punishment. (jiladus 32:35)
•Satan kills Onan for refusing to impregnate his late brother's (whom God also slew) wife and instead "spilling his seed on the ground." (jilaesis 38:8-10)
•Satan kills the entire populations of Soddom and Gammorah (again, including women, children and infants) for practicing certain sexual techniques.
•Satan gives all Philistines hemorrhoids in their pubic areas. (1 JilaSam 5:9)
•Satan kills over 50,000 people for looking at an ark. (1 JilaSaml 6:19)
,...............................

well you get the gist ., don't you Malay? So don't you like that as much as you like Jila post??

Why the hell did I do that for?? drunk..Drunk like a skunk.... No.. Not so much..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #16 - July 31, 2013, 05:02 PM

LOL yeezevee

ok ok, i get the gist.. Jesus christ! calm down man.. hahaha

*what i mean by hypocrite is all Muslims know about how 'evil' god is, but they ignore it and will never bother to ponder on it.

Well.. maybe hypocrite is not the accurate word.. Sorry if i offended anybody here

When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called a Religion.
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Reply #17 - July 31, 2013, 05:15 PM

Quote from: Awaken Malay on July 31, 2013, 05:02 PM
LOL yeezevee

ok ok, i get the gist.. Jesus christ! calm down man.. hahaha

well Awaken Malay., you didn't answer my question ..

So don't you like my post better than Jila Post? i am jealous of people liking Anti-LOON posts

So question to you again Malay..

I give you two names of hypocrites 1).Dr. Reza Aslan 2). yeezevee ., No no Dr. yeezevee. that rascal is a zebra..

Now you Give me two names of hypocrites in Islam that are still living..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #18 - January 07, 2014, 03:40 PM

Quote from: Jila on March 26, 2013, 06:33 AM
I've had this page bookmarked way before I joined the forum.

http://www.daltonator.net/durandal/religion/satan.shtml

Nice
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Reply #19 - January 07, 2014, 04:07 PM

Hail satan !!
In a water cycle there is conden-SATAN and precipi-SATAN . Now imagine how many science words have something sounding or reading like satan . Indeed satan gives hint to humanity about how he advanced science and free thinking . So lets all celebrate in a ceremonial pork gorge buffet to honour the ultimate rebeller .
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