Creation from clay hypothesis

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Creation from clay hypothesis
OP - March 30, 2013, 03:23 PM

So in the comments section of the Krauss debate a Muslim stated that the Quran is true because it talks about creation from clay and there is a hypothesis by scientists that claims this too. I did a quick search and found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Cairns-Smith

Now my reply was that in the Quran is specifically mentions that Adam was created out of clay... a man fashioned from clay. The clay hypothesis by Graham Cairns-Smith talks about life on this planet starting from clay. These are 2 very different things. Now unless a Muslim interprets the Quran in a very broad sense to use this clay hypothesis as some sort of proof for the divinity of the Quran they would also have to accept that if life did start in clay then humans were the result of evolution. Therefore Adam had a father and a mother and so on and so on. This would completely go against the claims in the Quran that Adam was the first man.

Id like to hear your thoughts and opinions on this. I have a feeling this clay argument may be used a lot more by apologists in the future so it would be good to explore it in depth and show how it can't be used to prove the validity of the Quran.

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Creation from clay hypothesis
Reply #1 - March 30, 2013, 03:26 PM

If science found out that man was created from a frog’s diarrhea squirts, Muslims would run around claiming that the Qur’an mentioned it. It’s helpless to try to disprove them because no matter what happens, they will find a way to make the Qur’an sound correct, no matter how foolish and ignorant they end up looking because of it.
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Reply #2 - March 30, 2013, 03:37 PM

^

I just scanned the link to the scientists page on wikipedia.

does the muslim dude realize that in order to accept the clay crystals hypothesis he would also have to accept the theory of evolution by natural selection too though...

And if he wants to accept the theory of evolution he will have to throw out all the hadith books because there are hadiths in bukhari and muslim about adam being a giant and similiar bullshit.

And if he must reject the most authentic hadith as fabricated to accept the theory of evolution he must throw out all hadiths or be accused of blatantly obvious cherry picking.

And if he rejects the hadith then he would have to become a Quran only muslim. But the Quran does not make any sense by itself without using hadiths and tafsirs to help interpret it.

Then the entire religion just starts falling apart.....

In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
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Reply #3 - March 30, 2013, 03:43 PM

Quote from: TheDarkRebel on March 30, 2013, 03:37 PM
^

I just scanned the link to the scientists page on wikipedia.

does the muslim dude realize that in order to accept the clay crystals hypothesis he would also have to accept the theory of evolution by natural selection too though...

And if he wants to accept the theory of evolution he will have to throw out all the hadith books because there are hadiths in bukhari and muslim about adam being a giant and similiar bullshit.

And if he must reject the most authentic hadith as fabricated to accept the theory of evolution he must throw out all hadiths or be accused of blatantly obvious cherry picking.

And if he rejects the hadith then he would have to become a Quran only muslim. But the Quran does not make any sense by itself without using hadiths and tafsirs to help interpret it.

Then the entire religion just starts falling apart.....

And out of all that TDR, all they’ll hear is “Clay!! Clay!! See, it says Clay!! Masha Alllah Masha Allah Alhamdulillah, Allahuakbar!! It’s a miracle!”
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Reply #4 - March 30, 2013, 04:02 PM

Quote from: Pepe on March 30, 2013, 03:23 PM
So in the comments section of the Krauss debate a Muslim stated that the Quran is true because it talks about creation from clay.......................................

That is true MUSLIM BUMS do put out that statement quite often in dinner discussions.. .. But Pepe I am curious here ., Most of your recent posts that opens up a thread starts with inquiring in to Quran .. I ask you why? You are TOO YOUNG TOO READ QURAN... lol. anyways let me first put out verses from the book on that..

Quote
And (make him) an apostle to the children of Israel: That I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I determine for you out of dust like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with Allah's permission and I heal the blind and the leprous, and bring the dead to life with Allah's permission and I inform you of what you should eat and what you should store in your houses; most surely there is a sign in this for you, if you are believers. ...........( Aal-e-Imran,, Verse #49)

When Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! Remember My favor on you and on your mother, when I strengthened you I with the holy Spirit, you spoke to the people in the cradle and I when of old age, and when I taught you the Book and the wisdom and the Taurat and the Injeel; and when you determined out of clay a thing like the form of a bird by My permission, then you breathed into it and it became a bird by My permission, and you healed the blind and the leprous by My permission; and when you brought forth the dead by My permission; and when I withheld the children of Israel from you when you came to them with clear arguments, but those who disbelieved among them said: This is nothing but clear enchantment. ............ (Al-Maeda, Verse #110)

He it is Who created you from clay, then He decreed a term; and there is a term named with Him; still you doubt. .... .....( Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #2)

He said: What hindered you so that you did not prostrate when I commanded you? He said: I am better than he: Thou hast created me of fire, while him Thou didst create of dust. ... ....(.Al-Araf, Chapter , Verse #12)

And certainly We created man of clay that gives forth sound, of black mud fashioned in shape. .......(Al-Hijr, Verse #26)

And when your Lord said to the angels: Surely I am going to create a mortal of the essence of black mud fashioned in shape. ........ (Al-Hijr, Chapter Verse #28)

He said: I am not such that I should make obeisance to a mortal whom Thou hast created of the essence of black mud fashioned in shape..... Al-Hijr, Chapter Verse #33)

And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam; they made obeisance, but Iblis (did it not). He said: Shall I make obeisance to him whom Thou hast created of dust?..............(Al-Isra, Chapter, Verse #61))

And certainly We created man of an extract of clay,........ (Al-Mumenoon,, Verse #12)

Who made good everything that He has created, and [He began the creation of man from dust........(Al-Mumenoon...Verse #12)

Who made good everything that He has created, and He began the creation of man from dust................... As-Sajda, Verse #7)

Then ask them whether they are stronger in creation or those (others) whom We have created. Surely We created them of firm clay. ......(.As-Saaffat, Verse #11)

When your Lord said to the angels; Surely I am going to create a mortal from dust : ....... (Sad, Verse #71)

He said: I am better than he; Thou hast created me of fire, and him Thou didst create of dust..........(Sad,,Verse #76)

He created man from dry clay like earthen vessels, .................(.Ar-Rahman, , Verse #14)

So Quran has plenty of verses that says man is made out of clay. And Pepe you made me to read Quran... you got to pay the price for that... lol..

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Creation from clay hypothesis
Reply #5 - March 30, 2013, 04:11 PM

LOL Yeezevee you plonker to get all that one just has to type in "clay" into an online Quran source (which I did). So now we have the creation of Adam from clay in the Quran. How would you think apologists would try and twist the clay hypothesis to try and justify their claims other than the way I already talked about that ends up disproving them utterly. Would be a good idea to predict their moves which always seem to be based on twisting and cherry picking to justify their beliefs.

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Creation from clay hypothesis
Reply #6 - March 30, 2013, 04:15 PM

Pepe is in strategic chess player anti-da'wah mode

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Reply #7 - March 30, 2013, 04:25 PM

LOL indeed I am Billy. Accurate strategy is way more effective. Emotional stabbing in the dark could end up hurting the one wielding the weapon but you can take down the biggest opponents with a small precise cut of a scalpel in the jugular Ruthless bastard I am sometimes

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Creation from clay hypothesis
Reply #8 - March 30, 2013, 04:29 PM

I can't remember what surah this is, and I can't look it up right now, but the "clay" thing is really not enough to prove the Qur’an’s story. The Qur'an is really specific about the creation of Adam. "Behold, your lord said to the angels, I am creating a man from clay. So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him of my soul, then fall ye prostrate before him….He said Oh Iblis, what prevents you from prostrating from that which I have created with my own two hands, have you become arrogant or are you among those who are haughty?” He said, I am better than him, you created me from fire and you created him from clay.”

That’s kinda hard to twist, unless you say its all a metaphor, then anything goes really.
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Reply #9 - March 30, 2013, 04:29 PM

Quote from: Pepe on March 30, 2013, 04:11 PM
LOL Yeezevee you plonker to get all that one just has to type in "clay" into an online Quran source (which I did).

you guys only type in to computers.. never read in to Quran.... Analyzing those verses and the ones that are present around them gives us the idea, why and how Quran was put together ?.. If some one reads them to you in Arabic, they indeed sound like a wonderful sonnets...

Quote
So now we have the creation of Adam from clay in the Quran. How would you think apologists would try and twist the clay hypothesis to try and justify their claims other than the way I already talked about that ends up disproving them utterly. Would be a good idea to predict their moves which always seem to be based on twisting and cherry picking to justify their beliefs.

Simple..., Apologists are fools. 1) they don't read other religious books. 2) .. They run around circles with, Quran says/said so statements and they have the blind belief that Quran is word of allahgod and it is the last word of allahgod. You can not argue with fools Pepe. Let them live in their dirt.

What all we, you and me want is to have freedom to criticize anything that is there in these books. These silly books are put together by cavemen.. They are only good for harry potter children stories..

All those verses are copy pasted from a bible verse... "Man created from Clay" is there in every religious scripture/words that is there before the birth of alleged "Muhammad"

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Reply #10 - March 30, 2013, 04:47 PM

Quote from: happymurtad on March 30, 2013, 04:29 PM
That’s kinda hard to twist, unless you say its all a metaphor, then anything goes really.

For those people who say it's a metaphor.

You might as well become a believer in Zeus and say all the stories about him are a metaphor.

In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
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Reply #11 - March 30, 2013, 04:51 PM

You still have to be able to derive some sort of a useful comparison or analogy from a metaphor. If you can’t, it’s not a metaphor, it’s just wrong.
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Reply #12 - March 30, 2013, 05:37 PM

It's actually not that hard to come up with some bullshit lesson to derive from a useless metaphor.

Case in Point:

The sexual promiscuity of Zeus is not meant to be taken literally as some kafirs would like you to think.

It is actually a metaphor for being loving towards everyone you encounter.

In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
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Reply #13 - March 30, 2013, 05:57 PM

OK. I’m bored. Let’s do the same thing for the creation of Adam. Now remember, every verse in the Qur’an is important, so we need to be able to explain the metaphoric importance of each verse.

When Allah said to the Angels that he was creating man from clay, what he really meant was that he was creating a primitive organism that would, over several billion years, evolve over and over again into countless different species.

When Allah said that he “fashioned” him, he meant that he decreed for factors like climate, food supply, terrain, and predators to determine which of those countless species would go extinct and which would survive to pass their genetic makeup on to give humans the appearance and makeup they have today.

When Allah says that he breathed life into him, what he really meant was he allowed for the first land-dwelling life form to be able to inhale oxygen.

When he says that he commanded the angels to bow down, he means that he allowed for these animals to be able to perceive and interpret light through their sense of sight—as angels are made of light. Satan, who is a metaphor for fire, remained a threatening force against early homo sapiens and thus “refused to bow down” to Adam. Unless they are able to “tame satan’s urges,” or control fire, it would remain a potentially deadly force against humans and their environment.

When Allah says that Adam was outcast from the garden, what he really means is that homo sapiens had to move out of the African savannah, where they originally evolved, to find better land and climates elsewhere.

When Allah says that eating from the forbidden tree caused Adam and Eve to notice their nakedness, what he really means is that by the time mankind moved into climates that were conducive to agriculture, they also had to produce clothing to protect them from the elements.

This is all making sense now! Laa ilaha illa lah!
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Reply #14 - March 30, 2013, 06:26 PM

LOL!

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Reply #15 - March 30, 2013, 06:53 PM

Quote from: happymurtad on March 30, 2013, 05:57 PM
OK. I’m bored. Let’s do the same thing for the creation of Adam. Now remember, every verse in the Qur’an is important, so we need to be able to explain the metaphoric importance of each verse.

When Allah said to the Angels that he was creating man from clay, what he really meant was that he was creating a primitive organism that would, over several billion years, evolve over and over again into countless different species.

When Allah said that he “fashioned” him, he meant that he decreed for factors like climate, food supply, terrain, and predators to determine which of those countless species would go extinct and which would survive to pass their genetic makeup on to give humans the appearance and makeup they have today.

When Allah says that he breathed life into him, what he really meant was he allowed for the first land-dwelling life form to be able to inhale oxygen.

When he says that he commanded the angels to bow down, he means that he allowed for these animals to be able to perceive and interpret light through their sense of sight—as angels are made of light. Satan, who is a metaphor for fire, remained a threatening force against early homo sapiens and thus “refused to bow down” to Adam. Unless they are able to “tame satan’s urges,” or control fire, it would remain a potentially deadly force against humans and their environment.

When Allah says that Adam was outcast from the garden, what he really means is that homo sapiens had to move out of the African savannah, where they originally evolved, to find better land and climates elsewhere.

When Allah says that eating from the forbidden tree caused Adam and Eve to notice their nakedness, what he really means is that by the time mankind moved into climates that were conducive to agriculture, they also had to produce clothing to protect them from the elements.

This is all making sense now! Laa ilaha illa lah!

Best. Post. ever. The admins should put this on the front page.
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Reply #16 - March 30, 2013, 07:02 PM

Quote from: happymurtad on March 30, 2013, 05:57 PM
OK. I’m bored. Let’s do the same thing for the creation of Adam. Now remember, every verse in the Qur’an is important, so we need to be able to explain the metaphoric importance of each verse.

When Allah said to the Angels that he was creating man from clay, what he really meant was that he was creating a primitive organism that would, over several billion years, evolve over and over again into countless different species.

When Allah said that he “fashioned” him, he meant that he decreed for factors like climate, food supply, terrain, and predators to determine which of those countless species would go extinct and which would survive to pass their genetic makeup on to give humans the appearance and makeup they have today.

When Allah says that he breathed life into him, what he really meant was he allowed for the first land-dwelling life form to be able to inhale oxygen.

When he says that he commanded the angels to bow down, he means that he allowed for these animals to be able to perceive and interpret light through their sense of sight—as angels are made of light. Satan, who is a metaphor for fire, remained a threatening force against early homo sapiens and thus “refused to bow down” to Adam. Unless they are able to “tame satan’s urges,” or control fire, it would remain a potentially deadly force against humans and their environment.

When Allah says that Adam was outcast from the garden, what he really means is that homo sapiens had to move out of the African savannah, where they originally evolved, to find better land and climates elsewhere.

When Allah says that eating from the forbidden tree caused Adam and Eve to notice their nakedness, what he really means is that by the time mankind moved into climates that were conducive to agriculture, they also had to produce clothing to protect them from the elements.

This is all making sense now! Laa ilaha illa lah!

Careful there.

I wouldn't be surprised if a liberal muslim apologist steals that explanation and starts using that for his apologetic.

In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
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Reply #17 - March 30, 2013, 07:14 PM

For my fellow older Brits. If Morph was Adam then Tony Hart would be Allah

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Reply #18 - March 30, 2013, 07:18 PM

Quote from: Pepe on March 30, 2013, 04:25 PM
LOL indeed I am Billy. Accurate strategy is way more effective. Emotional stabbing in the dark could end up hurting the one wielding the weapon but you can take down the biggest opponents with a small precise cut of a scalpel in the jugular Ruthless bastard I am sometimes

You really should write an article for us one day mate

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Reply #19 - March 30, 2013, 07:42 PM

Don't forget the hadith guys...

Abu Haraira reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) took hold of my hands and said: Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, created the clay on Saturday and He created the mountains on Sunday and He created the trees on Monday and He created the things entailing labour on Tuesday and created light on Wednesday and lie caused the animals to spread on Thursday and created Adam (peace be upon him) after 'Asr on Friday; the last creation at the last hour of the hours of Friday, i.e. between afternoon and night.

Sahih Muslim Book 039, Hadith Number 6707.

“I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: ‘Allaah created Adam from a handful that He gathered from the entire earth, so the sons of Adam come like the earth. Some of them are red, some are white, some are black and some are in between. Some of them are easy, some of them are difficult, some are evil and some are good.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 2955; Abu Dawood, 4693. Al-Tirmidhi said that this hadeeth is hasan saheeh, and it was classed as saheeh by Ibn Hibbaan, 14/29; al-Haakim, 2/288; and al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood, 3926).
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Reply #20 - March 30, 2013, 07:43 PM

trees came before the light
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Reply #21 - March 30, 2013, 07:43 PM

and howd he create the mountains in one day? :s
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Reply #22 - March 30, 2013, 08:35 PM

About the trees coming before the light... The crap I heard to justify this was that the plants were fed by the noor of Allah before the creation of the sun. Basically when they run out of arguments they fall back on magic and that god can do anything.

Hadiths are fun to dismantle because they are usually more specific and because of that easier to destroy their claims. I think that's the reason we have so many Quran only Muslims these days because even they can't reconcile the absurdity with glaring facts and common sense. It's a sign that reason and science are winning though when the religious have to retreat back to the one scripture they can't question without losing their faith. I had become a Quran only apologist just before I finally became an apostate.

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Reply #23 - March 30, 2013, 09:48 PM

from clay!? but I thought humans were created and genetically engineered by aliens in a lab.

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