Hi all - question regarding my wife

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- meaty
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Hi all - question regarding my wife
OP - March 31, 2013, 07:25 PM

Hi everyone I'm new here and would greatful for some advice please on a difficult situation. I am a fan of your group and we met some of you a few years ago at a hyde park corner one law for all rally.

My wife is a bengali ex muslim and converted to christianity. We are recently married and her family do not know that she is christian or that we are married. They do know however that she is living with me and think we plan to marry soon. After much debate she has now been given an ultimatem by her mum - I must convert to islam in a private ceremony or they will disown her completely. She has sisters and neices and nephews, mum (no dad). The mum says that I would not need to do anything islamic after this, but says she would go to hell if they accept the marriage so this is the only choice in her eyes.

I am not a fan of islam and have told my wife I will not do this. She doesn't like islam either but is faced with a stark choice of losing these people forever. So basically she wants to keep up a little pretence to keep them in her life. But for me to say the shahada and have these people think I'm a muslim makes me feel sick.
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Hi all - question regarding my wife
Reply #1 - March 31, 2013, 07:28 PM

Tell her that it is impossible to be a muslim and that all muslims are kafirs, and fling the determinism argument at them. That's not me being facetious, BTW.

On a more serious note though, how can you trust her family? Whilst takiyya is not, and never has been, a part of islamic theology, you should still never trust them to leave you alone post-conversion.
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Hi all - question regarding my wife
Reply #2 - March 31, 2013, 07:33 PM

Tough situation. There's her love for her family, and your need to stay true to yourself. Honestly can not think of good advice since I'm more about people doing what is ultimately right for them.

Maybe you could point out that the mum asking for a fake conversion that means nothing is in itself no better than her accepting you as you are. If her allah is real, is watching and is judging, her actions are a lie, that she knows, and he knows, and won't prevent the hell fire punishment she is desperate to think it will.

Of course that could back fire and mean she refuses any marriage flat out once she thinks it through.

Personally, even for love I couldn't fake being a muslim. But I have been one and my experiences with it are just deep scars that wouldn't allow me to make that sacrifice for love.

But you've never been, and you wouldn't ever have to be muslim again. Maybe for you, the sacrifice would be less in the face of everything she stands to lose.

It's a difficult situation, I don't envy you that's for sure. I hope someone else on here has better advice for you.

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Hi all - question regarding my wife
Reply #3 - March 31, 2013, 07:42 PM

Hi meaty

You are in one hell of a dilemma.

This kind of emotional pressure / coercion is standard and pretty common place in these situations.

Islam doesn't tend to have the same laissez faire attitude as other faiths when it comes to marriage.

We have some people who have been or are in a situation that enables them to empathise with you.

Hopefully Doubting Thomas will be able to add some words of advice.

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Reply #4 - March 31, 2013, 09:17 PM

I think you have to tell them you are already married.

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

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Hi all - question regarding my wife
Reply #5 - April 01, 2013, 12:40 AM

Hi and welcome Meaty,
Thanks for the vote of confidence Billy but unfortunately I have no words of wisdom here, regardless I'll do my best anyway. Firstly one very big difference here between your situation and my own, your wife isnt a muslim any more and without pressure from her family she really wouldn't want you to convert, not so mine. So for this reason alone I really feel like advicing you to tell her family to PISS OFF(in the nicest possible way). I'm so sick of these conversion to please family arangements, it wont save anyone's soul. I wish more people would stand their ground and boycott that idea.
Secondly there's no such thing as a fake shahada in most muslims eyes, you make that declaration and hey presto they think, esp family they have a right to intefer in your life.
Sounds to me it's more like your wife's decision and not yours. Stand your ground awhile longer if you can. I didn't my situations different, some times I wish I had, sometimes I wish I hadn't.
Hope it all pans out the best way possible.
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Hi all - question regarding my wife
Reply #6 - April 01, 2013, 01:20 PM

Thanks Thomas and others for your comments. It is an extremely difficult situation. I know that a muslim woman cannot marry a non muslim man. My wife has told her mum that she (my wife) can renounce islam, then she wouldn't be a muslim so could marry me as the rules wouldn't apply to her. The mum has said that 'according to the koran' she would have to disown her if she did that and if she doesn't then she'll go to hell. Does anyone know if it actually says in the koran or hadith that a child must be disowned and never spoken to again if they become an apostate? Or is this an individual decision? I don't understand what benefit disowning would achieve. If they want her to come back to islam then surely they would need to keep contact to do dawaa etc. And what happened to "there is no compulsion in religion"? They seem to just disregard that statement
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Hi all - question regarding my wife
Reply #7 - April 01, 2013, 01:36 PM

Don't give an inch, either of you. Be polite, but very, very firm.

(That's my tuppenceworth, anyway.)
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Hi all - question regarding my wife
Reply #8 - April 01, 2013, 02:51 PM

I tend to disagree with some of the advise so far, and maybe this is just me. If your a wife is ok with you not actually being a Muslim, and her mom only wants you to mumble a few meaningless words to keep her shut up and out of her life, I would likely do it.

I know this may sound strange and may be difficult to do given your principles, but it may help to view the shahada not as a testimony of faith but as worthless mumbo jumbo that will make an old woman happy--especially if she doesn't expect you to do anything afterwards.

Saying it does not magically make you a Muslim. I can say it right now and absolutely nothing will happen. I might as well say there is no God but Elmo and big bird is his messenger. It changes nothing. Then you can just go about your life as normal.
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Hi all - question regarding my wife
Reply #9 - April 01, 2013, 03:52 PM

^I agree. If that is the barrier between you and your love, why does it matter, these random Arabic words that will not influence your life. Once you do it, they will get happy and you can live as you wish (or is there more to the equation?)
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Hi all - question regarding my wife
Reply #10 - April 01, 2013, 04:05 PM

I also agree with hm.

Is there room to be Jesuitical - to say one thing and mean another? For example, when was punctuation introduced into Arabis?

There is no God. FULL STOP. New Paragraph. But Allah and his messenger ...

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Hi all - question regarding my wife
Reply #11 - April 01, 2013, 04:09 PM

You don't really explain why you object.

Are you a Christian and thus saying the Shahada would be against your faith? In which case, do what you gotta do and hold your ground.

In the end, this is just how it is done for a large number of marriages into ethnic and especially Muslims families.
Assuming your wife is actually Christian and has given up her Muslim beliefs, I ask what is the harm in a one time ceremony for the sake of keeping her cultural community at ease?

Maybe I'm just not one for sentimentality, but I didn't feel odd saying the Shahada even though I was not a Muslim at the time of marriage. It's just a bunch of Arabic words.
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Hi all - question regarding my wife
Reply #12 - April 01, 2013, 04:31 PM

I would do it. Sometimes you have to do things that you dont want to do.
It isnt for the sake of your mother in law. It is for the sake of your wife.
If you are really opposed to the idea then you could always denounce Islam the next day. Then you would be an ex muslim!
Maybe if you converted to two different religions on the same day they would cancel each other out.
I suggest rastafarianism.

The shahada only means anything if Islam is true, and if Islam is true, then its good to have said the shahada. Not exactly traditional, but you could celebrate with a few beers
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Hi all - question regarding my wife
Reply #13 - April 01, 2013, 04:43 PM

Just do it bro.

Whats one little ceremony on one day of your life if it is going to mean that you can have a happy marriage forever? You don't even have to mean it, just say it.

I am an atheist and I was married by a priest who I think was Catholic or Lutheran or something. If that is the only thing you need to do to keep the in-laws happy then you are very lucky.

But make sure the mum sticks to this though:

Quote from: meaty on March 31, 2013, 07:25 PM
The mum says that I would not need to do anything islamic after this

Make her promise that this is all you would have to do.

I am married to a Catholic from Colombia, we had an outdoor ceremony with a Spanish priest of some Christian denomination. One time after that, my mother-in-law suggested that we should have a second wedding down in Colombia in a Catholic church. So I told her no because we are already married and don't need a second one.
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Hi all - question regarding my wife
Reply #14 - April 01, 2013, 04:55 PM

if they were asking for a circumcision, that would be different
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Hi all - question regarding my wife
Reply #15 - April 01, 2013, 11:36 PM

Hi again Meaty, if you are considering doing it, make sure you have a plan, mine was travel half way around the world say the Shahada, do the nikah, give some kind of impression of practicing the faith, get on an areoplane with newly married wife and fly back half way around the world to generally live life away from outside pressures.
It's also worth considering now if you want kids and how your going to go about raising them if you do. Hopefully her family can keep out of this but it will be hard for them. Every so often we go and visit her family and they will tell my kid how to eat, what to say and very soon how to pray....awkward. I also reluctantly allowed my child be circumcised but did it at an earlier age, less tramatic then the usual wait until they're seven lark.
It's not the saying of the shahada that made me feel uncomfortable, it's the expectations and hopes the surrounding muslims around it hold. Like you said it's a tricky situation and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy but it is a different situation so if you did hopefully her families expectations would be different.
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Hi all - question regarding my wife
Reply #16 - April 02, 2013, 10:47 PM

I agree that saying the shahada is meaningless mumbo jumbo (I like the full stop option lol). My objection is more based on two things. First the principle of them imposing their religion on other people and blackmailing with the threat of disowning. Its just morally wrong and I believe in doing whats right and going against this sort of crap, to set an example for others. By agreeing I am giving in to these evil people and they win. Secondly its after I convert, the fact that they think I'm a muslim and all the future issues it may bring. Am trying to fathom this out now and get a clause that I never need to speak to them again.

I have a more logical approach in general and my view is that such people are not worth her time, regardless if they are family. I would tell my own family to get stuffed if they tried to impose such things on me. But for my wife its the emotional attachment and the loss it will bring. Suppose I need to understand that and I'm leaning towards making the sacrifice and doing it.

Thomas what was your situation if you don't mind me asking?
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Hi all - question regarding my wife
Reply #17 - April 02, 2013, 11:23 PM

Yeah mate,

These sort of Muslims are really their own breed of people. They really can’t see the world outside of their own little bubble nor can they understand just how ugly their hatred of the non-believer makes them. It’s sad, but it is unfortunately part of the territory. I still recommend just playing along, so long as that is all they ever ask you to give. It is a small, meaningless gesture to a primitive and childish world view that will eventually help make your life and your wife’s life easier, hopefully.
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Hi all - question regarding my wife
Reply #18 - April 02, 2013, 11:38 PM

^
I can relate to everything you just said in your above first paragraph, although I think evil may be to strong a word in describing her family, not sure what the right one is, misguided, ignorant, superior...? I agree, imo the emotional blackmail and threats are morally wrong.
My situation, without getting to into the nitty gritty and giving to much information out, is that I was dating a seemingly, reasonably liberal muslim girl and suffice to say I eventually converted and we got married. For the first few times I met her I didn't even know she was muslim, I also didn't know a lot about Islam, I suppose I still don't. Her family's from Asia but we met in the West, where I'm from so I eventually agreed that I'd convert/say the shahada(I was very much against the idea) but that we'd live in the West away from the pressures and expectations of her people and country and that I wouldn't practice. The line "it will only be for the day that you'd be doing it/saying Shahada/converting" was also mentioned but even I wasn't naive enough to believe there wouldn't be consequences. We now have kids and it's still hard to know how I'll handle the next part, teaching prayer and getting kids to fast, (going to be difficult for me). Not sure if it will eventually get easier as they grow into young adults, I hope it will but I expect the next 10 years to be difficult regarding what I've just mentioned. Will I openly express my true beliefs to all and sundry after about 25 years of marriage when kids are all grown up, I don't know a part of me would like to but would there be any point, again I'm not sure, I'll probably see things differently that distance into the future if I'm lucky enough to still be around.
I admire your back bone for standing up to things so far, it's not easy, very emotionally draining I found. Is there no way your wife would agree to move away from her family to live away from all this interference but I guess, that this maybe would defeat the purpose of keeping things sweet with them. Does she sees them as an integral part of her life that shes not willing to live without, even over you(mine did)? It's just impossible to tell how these things will play out a few years down the road. Stay strong and if you want to discuss things further you can pm me if you like.
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Hi all - question regarding my wife
Reply #19 - April 22, 2013, 05:48 PM

I did it, sold my soul, I'm now a member of their club! Actually I'm feeling quite enlightened, think this is what my life has been missing (only joking lol). Will see how it pans out over the coming years. I'm not getting good vibes though, think it is a slippery slope, think they will be expecting me to pray etc, we'll see. Moving is a good option but my family is here too. Anyway thanks for the comments all.
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Reply #20 - April 22, 2013, 06:05 PM

Have you read Life of Pi?

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Hi all - question regarding my wife
Reply #21 - April 22, 2013, 07:24 PM

Quote from: meaty on April 22, 2013, 05:48 PM
I did it, sold my soul, I'm now a member of their club! Actually I'm feeling quite enlightened, think this is what my life has been missing

Don't worry some of us live in 24/7 Muslim house holds and get away with not praying.

Congrats and good luck!
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Hi all - question regarding my wife
Reply #22 - April 22, 2013, 08:28 PM

Quote from: moi on April 22, 2013, 06:05 PM
Have you read Life of Pi?

no
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