Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →
↑ ↓
CEMB → Forum → Life, The Universe & Everything → The Muses → Can some music be objectively better?

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts

Do humans have needed kno...
Today at 10:33 AM
Lights on the way
by akay
Yesterday at 12:18 PM
New Britain
Yesterday at 11:40 AM
Gaza assault
January 26, 2025, 10:05 AM
اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
January 26, 2025, 08:55 AM
AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
January 20, 2025, 05:08 PM
Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
December 29, 2024, 12:03 PM
Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
December 29, 2024, 11:55 AM
News From Syria
by zeca
December 28, 2024, 12:29 AM
Mo Salah
December 26, 2024, 05:30 AM
What music are you listen...
by zeca
December 25, 2024, 10:58 AM
What's happened to the fo...
December 25, 2024, 02:29 AM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Can some music be objectively better?

 (Read 5213 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Can some music be objectively better?
     OP - April 01, 2013, 04:31 PM
    i.e. does good music and bad music exist outside of opinion?
  • Can some music be objectively better?
     Reply #1 - April 01, 2013, 05:22 PM
    Good and bad for what? Better in terms of what?

    To illustrate: I'm guessing that fans of the operatic may not be particularly impressed by this:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apxkby8bL2M

    .. but it might be very useful for someone needing insights into the life of the late ODB (R.A.).
    Before it gets too late, you will find escape.
  • Can some music be objectively better?
     Reply #2 - April 01, 2013, 06:19 PM
    No.

    Appreciation of anything is purely subjective.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Can some music be objectively better?
     Reply #3 - April 01, 2013, 07:07 PM
    I would argue that some sounds are more musical than others. For example, I reject the concept of "noise music", and don't think it's music at all.

    With that being said, I think it's important to recognize that the definition of music is a human construct.
  • Can some music be objectively better?
     Reply #4 - April 01, 2013, 09:20 PM
    I don't understand this argument. Isn't tribal drumming a form of noise music?
  • Can some music be objectively better?
     Reply #5 - April 01, 2013, 09:25 PM
    And before you give me the rhythmic argument:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrwqkfrPbew
  • Can some music be objectively better?
     Reply #6 - April 01, 2013, 09:39 PM
    I don't consider something like this to be music. It might be another form of auditory art, but I wouldn't call it music.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGzrL8J0t-c
  • Can some music be objectively better?
     Reply #7 - April 01, 2013, 09:51 PM
    Merzbow for the win.
  • Can some music be objectively better?
     Reply #8 - April 01, 2013, 09:52 PM
    What's always interested me is the tonality of the quran. Is this what attracts and rivets muslims?
  • Can some music be objectively better?
     Reply #9 - April 07, 2013, 02:59 AM
    Well one could argue that music that contains more meaning in it is better music than music thats just about sex and dancing like most popular mainstream music today.

     


    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Can some music be objectively better?
     Reply #10 - April 07, 2013, 06:05 AM
    One could, but one would be reflecting a subjective opinion.
  • Can some music be objectively better?
     Reply #11 - April 07, 2013, 08:33 AM
    I can't speak for other genre but for Hip-hop/Rap; beats,quality lyrics that can be thought-provoking and has deeper meanings,great flows and skills. If I say "x" sucks because he hasn't matched any of the criteria,its that subjective?
    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Can some music be objectively better?
     Reply #12 - April 07, 2013, 08:37 AM
    So who gets to decide what's a good beat and what are good lyrics? That would definitely be a subjective decision.
  • Can some music be objectively better?
     Reply #13 - April 07, 2013, 08:51 AM
    With that logic, that's how I end up hearing a lot of newbies saying Wayne is better than 2pac and Nas.
    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Can some music be objectively better?
     Reply #14 - April 07, 2013, 10:07 AM
    Quote from: Nullstellen on April 01, 2013, 04:31 PM
    i.e. does good music and bad music exist outside of opinion?

    I personally don't think so. I think dubstep, trance/techno and most contemporary rap/hip-hip is shit (no offence) and unbearable to listen to but plenty of people love those genres. There are plenty of chart toppers that I reckon are crap too and it boggles my mind how they can be so popular, while a lot of songs I love aren't widely popular. It's very obvious to me what constitutes good music or bad music is completely subjective and doesn't exist outside of opinion. 

  • Can some music be objectively better?
     Reply #15 - April 07, 2013, 10:14 AM
    ...
  • Can some music be objectively better?
     Reply #16 - April 07, 2013, 10:22 AM
    Ah, aesthetics!

    I think it's essential to first figure this out:

    What is the difference between "sound" and "music"?
    Can pure white noise be considered "music"? (I don't think so)

    If I had to guess, I'd say that the minimum requisite for somebody to be able to classify a sound as "music" is the ability to discern patterns and structures in that sound.
    And THAT might be subjective.

    Some people can see patterns and structure in something that other people consider simply random or coincidental.
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Can some music be objectively better?
     Reply #17 - April 07, 2013, 03:53 PM
    Quote from: Al-Alethia on April 07, 2013, 10:14 AM
    I'm friends with a guy who worships Lil' Wayne and thinks he's the best. I've got a friend whose a hardcore Justin Beiber fan, I've got friends who love the Beatles, one who only listens to classical music and then there's my sister who only listens to the Quran and nasheeds Cheesy It's all very subjective and I can't objectively say that anyone has bad taste in music because they probably define "good music" by a different criteria. One person could be all about the lyrics, another could be more into the beat, and so on. 

     

    I've moved onto grunge rock but honestly the only time I liked people like lil wayne and whatnot was when I didn't know anything about music.


    Right now some bands I like are Godsmack, Three Doors Down, Breaking Benjamin.  Need to start listening to the Beetles and more older rock bands.

    I don't like rap anymore because most current rappers like lil Wayne are all shit. 

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Can some music be objectively better?
     Reply #18 - April 07, 2013, 05:12 PM
    Can some music be objectively better?

    No. Because stupid people.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Can some music be objectively better?
     Reply #19 - April 07, 2013, 05:57 PM
    Quote from: Tlaloc on April 07, 2013, 10:22 AM
    Ah, aesthetics!

    I think it's essential to first figure this out:

    What is the difference between "sound" and "music"?
    Can pure white noise be considered "music"? (I don't think so)

    If I had to guess, I'd say that the minimum requisite for somebody to be able to classify a sound as "music" is the ability to discern patterns and structures in that sound.
    And THAT might be subjective.

    Some people can see patterns and structure in something that other people consider simply random or coincidental.


    Hmmm, serialism and the 12 tone technique attempted to shirk all traditional forms of pattern and structure yet it has been adopted by the classical music community as a valid *musical* aartform. Didn't Stockhausen write an essay on this very subject?
  • Can some music be objectively better?
     Reply #20 - April 07, 2013, 11:14 PM
    Quote from: Cato on April 07, 2013, 08:51 AM
    With that logic, that's how I end up hearing a lot of newbies saying Wayne is better than 2pac and Nas.

    Yeah, so? You can disagree with them. You can form a good argument and hope to convince them, but ultimately, it's subjective.
  • Can some music be objectively better?
     Reply #21 - April 08, 2013, 01:02 AM
    Still... People who say lil wayne makes good music makes me cringe.

    His songs contain no meaningfulness messages......

    For example how can this be considered good music. 

    A song has to sound good AND have a meaningful message for it to be considered a good song.

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7tOAGY59uQ
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Can some music be objectively better?
     Reply #22 - April 08, 2013, 01:39 AM
    You're missing the point. There's no objective definition that says a song needs to have a meaningful message for it to be good. And besides that, what exactly is a "good message", and how exactly would a song "sound good"? Who gets to set those standards, if they were to be objective?

    We all set our own standards for those criteria, i.e. they are subjective.
  • Can some music be objectively better?
     Reply #23 - April 08, 2013, 02:06 AM
    ^

    Ok I get what your saying. 


    Let me pose a slightly different question.  Can one objectively say that a certain artist has more talent than another artist?

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Can some music be objectively better?
     Reply #24 - November 20, 2013, 12:04 AM
    Not talent.  Skill with a particular instrument, voice range/tone, lyric writing..yes.  You can argue about what people think sounds good or not, but the fact remains that it takes time and skill to be able to play any instrument well.  Same goes for singing and writing decent lyrics that match the music.
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Can some music be objectively better?
     Reply #25 - November 20, 2013, 12:07 AM
    i heard about this years ago. Meant to read it, but never did.

    http://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Sound-Barrier-argument-mainstream/dp/0595249981

    basically he says yes.

    there are mathematical reasons why certain chords, sequence, or patterns sound better than others.
  • Can some music be objectively better?
     Reply #26 - November 20, 2013, 12:19 AM
    that makes sense, music is all about time

    that also ties in with skill, what makes someone good at an instrument or know how to play it? knowing how to count

    the scale they are operating on isn't important, it's how well they manipulate it

    all ties into math, I might buy this book
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Can some music be objectively better?
     Reply #27 - November 29, 2013, 07:23 PM
    The way I see it, it is technically possible for some music to have objectively higher scores in some aspects than others, but the importance of these aspects vary from one person to another. It's possible to say objectively that song A is more complex than song B, and singer A has a wider range than singer B, and so on, but for a whole song to be better than another song, it would depend on the person and what constitutes good music to them.
  • Can some music be objectively better?
     Reply #28 - November 30, 2013, 09:06 AM
    Mozart, Bach, Mendelssohn?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvDUznS5BeU
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Can some music be objectively better?
     Reply #29 - November 30, 2013, 11:12 AM
    Sounds a lot like the inimitibility of the Quran nonsense...
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »