The verse of the sword

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- Pepe
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The verse of the sword
OP - April 05, 2013, 04:19 PM

Quote
Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

I have heard this verse being used a bunch of times to attack Islam. Is this really a good thing because it seems like it can be easily refuted by the context of it. From what I understand it was for a specific group.

Zakir Naik says:
Quote
Critics of Islam actually quote this verse out of context. In order to understand the context, we need to read from verse 1 of this surah. It says that there was a peace treaty between the Muslims and the Mushriks (pagans) of Makkah. This treaty was violated by the Mushriks of Makkah. A period of four months was given to the Mushriks of Makkah to make amends. Otherwise war would be declared against them. This verse is quoted during a battle, and hence the Qur'an says, "Kill the Mushriks wherever you find them", during a battle to boost the morale of the Muslim soldiers. What the Qur'an is telling Muslim soldiers is, don’t be afraid during battle; wherever you find the enemies kill them.

Can anyone shed more light on this? Was this verse indeed for an act of self defense or can this be refuted? Now a Quran only muslim would have a problem here because if hadiths and tafsirs are not to be accepted this verse could mean that Muslims can go around killing non-believers till they believe. If the self defense aspect of this verse cant be refuted then I dont think its helpful using this verse to criticize Islam as there are many other things to point at.

Let me know your thoughts and feel free to shed more light on this matter.

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Believe in yourself
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Strike me down and I'll just become another nail in your coffin
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There's such a thing as sheep in wolfs clothing... religious fanatics
- yeezevee
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The verse of the sword
Reply #1 - April 05, 2013, 04:30 PM

Quote from: Pepe on April 05, 2013, 04:19 PM
I have heard this verse being used a bunch of times to attack Islam. Is this really a good thing because it seems like it can be easily refuted by the context of it. From what I understand it was for a specific group.

Zakir Naik says:
Can anyone shed more light on this? Was this verse indeed for an act of self defense or can this be refuted? Now a Quran only muslim would have a problem here because if hadiths and tafsirs are not to be accepted this verse could mean that Muslims can go around killing non-believers till they believe. If the self defense aspect of this verse cant be refuted then I dont think its helpful using this verse to criticize Islam as there are many other things to point at.

Let me know your thoughts and feel free to shed more light on this matter.

What is out of context and what is in context.. when some one says IT IS WORD OF ALLAH/God??

if that Indian baboon was born in Pakistan says/said same thing what he said, by now, he would have been living in heavenly allah whore house ..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- ibn Bilal
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The verse of the sword
Reply #2 - April 05, 2013, 04:40 PM

My take on this verse is a combination of the two. I don’t have any Islamic references available right now to site particular names, so if someone else can back me up, that would be great.

Firstly, it is true that according to the seerah, the verse was revealed regarding a breach of truce. However, the circumstances of the breach still lead me to conclude that Muhammad was being a bit opportunistic with his declaration of war. Contrary to what sNaik implies, the Makkans did not break the truce directly by attacking the Muslims on their turf. Rather, a tribe (the name of which slips my memory now) that was allied with the Makkans had a skirmish with a tribe that was allied with the Madinites (Muhammad’s crew), and thus the treaty was considered by Muhammad to have been broken. Muhammad then used this as an opportunity to declare war and invade Makkah.

As for the implications of the verse itself, the scholars of tafseer have historically held that this verse abrogates all other verses advocating peace. It is not some western conspiracy to paint this verse as a general sanction for war against disbelievers. It is a very traditional, well-rooted Islamic position.

This leads me to my last point regarding God’s apparent inability to communicate effectively. Allah is very specific, for example, regarding what to do and what specific steps should be taken if you call your wife your mother in a fit of rage or if you divorce your wife more than twice. When it comes to apparently sanctioning the besieging and killing of 70% of humanity, however, God is much less clear on exactly what should be done.

He could have said, for example, “Oh ye who believe, when ye are in battle against the Makkans for breaching the hudhaibiya treaty, kill the disbelieving makkan soldiers where ever you find them. Once the battle is over, however, do not kill innocent disbelievers! Verily Allah is ever watchful over you. And if a pagan does not try to harm you directly, then you should cause no harm to them. Surely, Allah loves not those who terrorize the innocent.” That would save a lot of confusion.
- yeezevee
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The verse of the sword
Reply #3 - April 05, 2013, 04:43 PM

Quote from: Pepe on April 05, 2013, 04:19 PM
I have heard this verse being used a bunch of times to attack Islam. Is this really a good thing because it seems like it can be easily refuted by the context of it. From what I understand it was for a specific group.
Zakir Naik says:
Quote
Critics of Islam actually quote this verse out of context. In order to understand the context, we need to read from verse 1 of this surah. It says that there was a peace treaty between the Muslims and the Mushriks (pagans) of Makkah. This treaty was violated by the Mushriks of Makkah. A period of four months was given to the Mushriks of Makkah to make amends. Otherwise war would be declared against them. This verse is quoted during a battle, and hence the Qur'an says, "Kill the Mushriks wherever you find them", during a battle to boost the morale of the Muslim soldiers. What the Qur'an is telling Muslim soldiers is, don’t be afraid during battle; wherever you find the enemies kill them.

what treaty? what Mushriks and what nonsense is that? Suppose a SUNNI IDIOT like Zakir Naik says.. All Shia Muslim convert with in 4 months otherwise there will be covert-overt war on Shia Islam..

is that a right thing to do?? This guy in Pakistan says

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcHLiJjEiV4

Zakir Naik is not a real Islamic scholar and is an idiot , he doesn't know how to speak Arabic .. That is from Pakistan TV..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- kutta
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The verse of the sword
Reply #4 - April 05, 2013, 09:10 PM

Quote from: Pepe on April 05, 2013, 04:19 PM
I have heard this verse being used a bunch of times to attack Islam. Is this really a good thing because it seems like it can be easily refuted by the context of it. From what I understand it was for a specific group.

Zakir Naik says:
Can anyone shed more light on this? Was this verse indeed for an act of self defense or can this be refuted? Now a Quran only muslim would have a problem here because if hadiths and tafsirs are not to be accepted this verse could mean that Muslims can go around killing non-believers till they believe. If the self defense aspect of this verse cant be refuted then I dont think its helpful using this verse to criticize Islam as there are many other things to point at.

Let me know your thoughts and feel free to shed more light on this matter.

Even if someone is a Quraan-only muslim, it doesn't change anything. The context is still mentioned within the Qur'aan in the preceding verses. This kind of verse is always used as a weak argument.
- scamper_22
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The verse of the sword
Reply #5 - April 05, 2013, 10:47 PM

I personally don't use that verse for the reason you say above.
It is very easy to say it derives from a breaking of the truce.

I much prefer the hadith.

Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

Bukhari (Book #2, Hadith #24)

...He would say: Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war, do not embezzle the spoils; do not break your pledge; and do not mutilate (the dead) bodies; do not kill the children. When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. Then invite them to migrate from their lands to the land of Muhairs and inform them that, if they do so, they shall have all the privileges and obligations of the Muhajirs. If they refuse to migrate, tell them that they will have the status of Bedouin Muilims and will be subjected to the Commands of Allah like other Muslims, but they will not get any share from the spoils of war or Fai' except when they actually fight with the Muslims (against the disbelievers). If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them....

Sahih Muslim (Book #019, Hadith #4294)

These versus basically mandate the Islamic Empire to be in perpetual war to control the world.
Now, assuming you are willing to pay the Jizya tax, you may live as another religion under the Islamic state.

But hey... that's no bloody prize... I'd rather not be ruled by the Islamic empire to begin with.
- Kodanshi
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The verse of the sword
Reply #6 - August 15, 2013, 07:10 PM

To be honest I don’t think it matters that much. Unlike the Christians and Jews wilfully ‘misinterpreting’ their divine works, allah declared that it would protect the qur’an and its integrity forever. Which says to me that any interpretation of one verse in light of another is completely legitimate, because allah wouldn’t allow it to be misinterpreted so badly.
- billy
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The verse of the sword
Reply #7 - August 15, 2013, 07:15 PM

^^^ Even that can cause believers problems. If the Quran can be interpreted in infinite ways and not one, no intepretation is the right one, and Islam loses the singular truth claims that its believers says give it its authority over all else.

Islam is like a sieve.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
- Kodanshi
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The verse of the sword
Reply #8 - August 15, 2013, 08:03 PM

^ Absolutely true. Though I am completely in favour of muslims reinterpreting their holy book to ignore all the bad messages, and work solely for peace.
- billy
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Reply #9 - August 15, 2013, 08:12 PM

Oh yeah, no doubt, that is the preferred option.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
- Quod Sum Eris
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The verse of the sword
Reply #10 - August 15, 2013, 08:22 PM

I think a number are starting to.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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